How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federation?

[T'Girl]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

... it would be rather idiotic that a culture as advanced as the Federation wouldn't be able to ...

While the Federation is advanced to a certain degree, they obviously are not as advanced as you seem to be assuming they are.

Face it Deks, there are limits to their technology.

Deuterium ... synthesize it artificially

Synthesize mean combining a number of things into a single whole. Deuterium is a single atom to start with.

Deuterium ... the stuff is basically 'everywhere'

0.0156% of all hydrogen is deuterium. You have to go though over 6.4 thousand litres of naturally occurring hydrogen to separate out 1 litre of pure deuterium.

Duranium ... made from readily available superior synthetic materials that can be made in abundance using the least amount of energy and resources

The Galamites might possess a indusrtial process to produce duranium that the Federation completely lacks, or it's less expensive than the Federation's method. So the Galamites produce it, ship it across interstellar space, and sell it to the Federation.

If Voyager was able to construct that ship at a spur of a thought and synthesize these materials

Given the relative size difference between the Voyager and the Delta Flyer, and the proven utility of the Flyer, have you concidered the possibility that they simply stripped a few tonnes of duranium out of the Voyager's own hull?

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

While the Federation is advanced to a certain degree, they obviously are not as advanced as you seem to be assuming they are.

Face it Deks, there are limits to their technology

Limits yes, but not of THAT kind of variety.
Or are you also forgetting how writers in Trek were notorious of creating ludicrous technology and resources in one episode (which was established as possible with the knowledge/technology at the Federation disposal) only to be forgotten in another for the purpose of 'drama'?

Synthesize mean combining a number of things into a single whole. Deuterium is a single atom to start with.

0.0156% of all hydrogen is deuterium. You have to go though over 6.4 thousand litres of naturally occurring hydrogen to separate out 1 litre of pure deuterium.

And how many litres of Deuterium is actually needed to run a ship?
Is 'pure' Deuterium also required, or is it also diluted to large levels?
The Federation would likely have other sources of matter from which Deuterium could be synthesized in abundance - and also, they WOULD be aiming for sustainability and maximum efficiency... which means, least amount of energy and resource expenditure.
Time might be a factor if they are in a hurry which would prompt finding naturally formed deuterium, but otherwise, I see no reason why time-consuming processes wouldn't be used for creating the synthetic variant - and we don't know if the Federation predominantly uses synthetic or natural deuterium.

The Galamites might possess a indusrtial process to produce duranium that the Federation completely lacks, or it's less expensive than the Federation's method. So the Galamites produce it, ship it across interstellar space, and sell it to the Federation.

Does not make sense.
Federation ships were in service for a LONG time, and even in the era of NX-01, Duranium was the choice of materials for ships hulls.
I find it utterly idiotic that the only source of this material or methods of production is available to the Galamites, because SF had been in existence for 200 years, and have been using the said material for as long.

Realistically, they would have to be pretty stupid to not be able to make a synthetic version of their own with identical if not FAR superior properties using the least amount of energy and materials in the process - after 200 years no less.

Given the relative size difference between the Voyager and the Delta Flyer, and the proven utility of the Flyer, have you considered the possibility that they simply stripped a few tonnes of duranium out of the Voyager's own hull?

I find it very unlikely the crew would use Voyager's own hull for that.
A Federation ship such as Voyager (or even a tiny Nova class) has the necessary tools/technology to be fully self-sufficient indefinitely and would likely be able to create the necessary materials they depend on given enough time.
Artificially imposed limitation from the writers is a well known 'drama factor'.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

"The nucleus of deuterium, called a deuteron, contains one proton and one neutron, whereas the far more common hydrogen isotope, protium, has no neutron in the nucleus."

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

The Galamites might possess a indusrtial process to produce duranium that the Federation completely lacks, or it's less expensive than the Federation's method. So the Galamites produce it, ship it across interstellar space, and sell it to the Federation.

Or the Federation might be consuming Duranium faster then they can replicate / produce given wartime energy levels.

Ergo getting a outside source is very beneficial to keeping manufacturing / repairs at full capacity.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Given the relative size difference between the Voyager and the Delta Flyer, and the proven utility of the Flyer, have you concidered the possibility that they simply stripped a few tonnes of duranium out of the Voyager's own hull?

They'd probably just replicate the duranium or process it from a natural ore site.

There's no sense in taking it from your own ship that needs it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

One common bad point in "Star Trek" writers is that they have a tendency to make Starfleet / UFP look incompetant by having technological failures, dumb rules, or incompetant people to create artificial drama.

Babylon 5, many Sci-Fi animes don't have their writers depend on these tropes.

It's the one part about Trek Writers that I hope to abolish if they ever create more TV series in the future.

There are many ways to create drama, using those stock tropes only make the protagonists look worse then they really should be is just bad writing.

 

[Timo]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Ergo getting a outside source is very beneficial to keeping manufacturing / repairs at full capacity.

...And giving the Jem'Hadar another target to aim at, easing the burden on primary duranium facilities in the UFP.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Ergo getting a outside source is very beneficial to keeping manufacturing / repairs at full capacity.

...And giving the Jem'Hadar another target to aim at, easing the burden on primary duranium facilities in the UFP.

Timo Saloniemi

That's a different way of looking at it.

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Or the Federation might be consuming Duranium faster then they can replicate / produce given wartime energy levels.

Ergo getting an outside source is very beneficial to keeping manufacturing / repairs at full capacity.

In a complimentary capacity to avoid possible shortages during wartime... yes.
But not as a primary source.

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

wait, according Memory Alpha, Replicator is :

A replicator was a device that used transporter technology to dematerialize quantities of matter and then rematerialize that matter in another form. It was also capable of inverting its function, thus disposing of leftovers and dishes and storing the bulk material again. (TNG: "Lonely Among Us"; DS9: "Hard Time", "The Ascent"; VOY: "Year of Hell", "Memorial")

So..., don't tell me again that replicator use only deuterium to magically produce anything. Or... Memory Alpha is actually false?

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Memory Alpha is NOT a canon source of information.
Per the actual on-screen data:
"Replicators convert energy into matter" - matter was never mentioned.

 

[brian577]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Actually in the DS9 episode Penumbra it was stated that the Galamites were supplying the Federation with Duranium. It would seem the war was so bad that the Federation had to rely on allies to provide them with raw materials.

Doesn't that strike you as poor writing?
To rely on any 1 species or source for something as vital as ship construction materials in the face of highly advanced technology that is basically integrated EVERYWHERE and is capable of creating practically anything is utterly unsustainable.
Ship construction materials would have to be made from readily available superior synthetic materials that can be made in abundance using the least amount of energy and resources... especially if we are talking about sustainability (let alone a war which was EXPECTED even).

I find it highly improbable, that they were never able to analyze the material and make a synthetic version - plus the material is NOT new.

Besides... Voyager constructed the second Delta Flyer which had a Duranium enforced hull (the first version had a Tetraburnium alloy that allowed the ship to withstand heavy atmoshperic pressure).
If Voyager was able to construct that ship at a spur of a thought and synthesize these materials (which they had to), the raw materials needed would have to be readily available in their environment (almost any given environment) that can be turned into synthetic Duranium, or Duranium is already replicable from energy alone (although granted, Voyager also could have traded with other races to get Duranium... if not the raw materials needed for its making).

Consisdering Voyager's bad writing, specifically that they were able to construct the ship at all with their supposedly limited resources, I'll take DS9's writing over there's.

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Consisdering Voyager's bad writing, specifically that they were able to construct the ship at all with their supposedly limited resources, I'll take DS9's writing over there's.

I wouldn't, seeing how DS9 often times dumbed everything down and made characters look like morons who are LESS advanced than WE are (and the Dominion War - not to mention the Founders, were a complete joke).
At least in Voyager, even though it wasn't completely explained, construction of the Delta Flyer was mostly in line with the technology at their disposal and level of thinking the characters should have employed throughout the show.

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Memory Alpha is NOT a canon source of information.
Per the actual on-screen data:
"Replicators convert energy into matter" - matter was never mentioned.

The problem Deks, Memory Alpha could give some "episodes Reference". So what about you? Where is that statement come?

Actually in the DS9 episode Penumbra it was stated that the Galamites were supplying the Federation with Duranium. It would seem the war was so bad that the Federation had to rely on allies to provide them with raw materials.

Doesn't that strike you as poor writing?
To rely on any 1 species or source for something as vital as ship construction materials in the face of highly advanced technology that is basically integrated EVERYWHERE and is capable of creating practically anything is utterly unsustainable.
Ship construction materials would have to be made from readily available superior synthetic materials that can be made in abundance using the least amount of energy and resources... especially if we are talking about sustainability (let alone a war which was EXPECTED even).

I find it highly improbable, that they were never able to analyze the material and make a synthetic version - plus the material is NOT new.

Besides... Voyager constructed the second Delta Flyer which had a Duranium enforced hull (the first version had a Tetraburnium alloy that allowed the ship to withstand heavy atmoshperic pressure).
If Voyager was able to construct that ship at a spur of a thought and synthesize these materials (which they had to), the raw materials needed would have to be readily available in their environment (almost any given environment) that can be turned into synthetic Duranium, or Duranium is already replicable from energy alone (although granted, Voyager also could have traded with other races to get Duranium... if not the raw materials needed for its making).

Consisdering Voyager's bad writing, specifically that they were able to construct the ship at all with their supposedly limited resources, I'll take DS9's writing over there's.

I agree with you.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Memory Alpha is NOT a canon source of information.
Per the actual on-screen data:
"Replicators convert energy into matter" - matter was never mentioned.

The problem Deks, Memory Alpha could give some "episodes Reference". So what about you? Where is that statement come?

What episode were you referring too"

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Memory Alpha is NOT a canon source of information.
Per the actual on-screen data:
"Replicators convert energy into matter" - matter was never mentioned.

The problem Deks, Memory Alpha could give some "episodes Reference". So what about you? Where is that statement come?

What episode were you referring too"

replicator was a device that used transporter technology to dematerialize quantities of matter and then rematerialize that matter in another form. It was also capable of inverting its function, thus disposing of leftovers and dishes and storing the bulk material again. (TNG: "Lonely Among Us"; DS9: "Hard Time", "The Ascent"; VOY: "Year of Hell", "Memorial")

I copy this from Memory Alpha. Look at the last one. They give us the episodes reference. Look at that, The three series. TNG, DS9 and VOY.

 

[Timo]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Usually, such references are completely erroneous or subject to interpretation. One would have to go to each episode to see what is said or shown.

In this particular case, let's see what each episode has to say.

"Lonely Among Us": The word "replicator" is never even used. The tidbit being referred to is apparently this phrase: "You've seen something as fresh and tasty as meat, but inorganically materialised out of patterns used by our transporters." This neither supports or contradicts either of the models of replication: matter out of energy, or matter out of other matter.

"Hard Time": All we get wrt the replicator is that one puts the dishes back into it after eating. We saw such things in "Cardassians" already; why this particular episode is picked as a reference is unknown. Again, no real support or objection to the first claim made in the article. Only the second claim about recycling is supported.

"The Ascent": Again a reference to putting dishes back into the machine, only relevant to the second claim.

"Year of Hell": No idea what MA wants to reference here, as the replicators go offline for most of the episode.

"Memorial": Another reference to putting dishes back into the replicator.

So basically all that these supposed references give us is that dishes should be put back into the machine or mommy gets angry. We don't even learn what happens to the dishes when the button is pressed. Are they really recycled, or merely destroyed for convenience?

The first claim made in the entry is baseless in light of these particular references.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

double post

 

[T'Girl]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Memory Alpha is NOT a canon source of information.
Per the actual on-screen data:
"Replicators convert energy into matter" - matter was never mentioned.

The problem Deks, Memory Alpha could give some "episodes Reference". So what about you? Where is that statement come?

What episode were you referring too"

replicator was a device ...

Please pardon the misunderstanding Brainsucker. I meant what episode was Deks referring too when he said ...

Per the actual on-screen data: "Replicators convert energy into matter"

I'm not sure where Deks obtained this quote.

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

What episode were you referring too"

replicator was a device ...

Please pardon the misunderstanding Brainsucker. I meant what episode was Deks referring too when he said ...

Per the actual on-screen data: "Replicators convert energy into matter"

I'm not sure where Deks obtained this quote.

Ah I'm sorry too for the miss understanding

Usually, such references are completely erroneous or subject to interpretation. One would have to go to each episode to see what is said or shown.

In this particular case, let's see what each episode has to say.

"Lonely Among Us": The word "replicator" is never even used. The tidbit being referred to is apparently this phrase: "You've seen something as fresh and tasty as meat, but inorganically materialised out of patterns used by our transporters." This neither supports or contradicts either of the models of replication: matter out of energy, or matter out of other matter.

"Hard Time": All we get wrt the replicator is that one puts the dishes back into it after eating. We saw such things in "Cardassians" already; why this particular episode is picked as a reference is unknown. Again, no real support or objection to the first claim made in the article. Only the second claim about recycling is supported.

"The Ascent": Again a reference to putting dishes back into the machine, only relevant to the second claim.

"Year of Hell": No idea what MA wants to reference here, as the replicators go offline for most of the episode.

"Memorial": Another reference to putting dishes back into the replicator.

So basically all that these supposed references give us is that dishes should be put back into the machine or mommy gets angry. We don't even learn what happens to the dishes when the button is pressed. Are they really recycled, or merely destroyed for convenience?

The first claim made in the entry is baseless in light of these particular references.

Timo Saloniemi

Well I don't know. Maybe there is no official info about this replicator in STar Trek