How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federation?

[Brainsucker]

Like what the title suggest. How could the Dominion War not effect the economy of United Federation of Planets?

First, what happen to a war? specially in a galactic war like that?

Planetary bombardment, convoy Interception, mass killing, Mass conscription, etc, etc, etc. And all of them effect the economy of the participant of war. Specially when the Federation is in the losing side. Although they haven't currency, but they still need resource. And resource is the most expensive things in a war.

So even with the Federation win at the end of the war, shouldn't the fight effect their economy?

What do you think?

 

[jayrath]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I am completely unfamiliar with the Dominon War. I lost interest early. But whoever said there was no economic impact? Anyway, that would pale in contrast to the lives lost.

 

[Tosk]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I highly doubt there was conscription.

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Even without mass conscription, the economy of colonies around the battlefield should be hampered, because the citizens at those places would left their daily job to manned the defense parameter. And that alone would greatly effect the economy

Plus conquering a planet need more than just 100.000 soldiers. They need millions. So how could there is no conscription? Unless the Dominion war is not as big as we think, and there is no planetary siege at all. But... a war of a galactic scale? What do you think about it? Even world war II push the US government to conscript their people. And it is only a planetary scale of war. Not a galactic one.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

While the effect of the war would be considerable to the Federation, I think that the Federation has the resources to bounce back within a few years, with Starfleet noticeably longer unless it undergoes a massive shipbuilding campaign.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

You don't need to occupy a planet, you can just skip it unless there is something of value you need there.

Also conquered worlds might not give too much resistance if you had actually liberated them Cardassian/Dominion oppression.

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Like what the title suggest. How could the Dominion War not effect the economy of United Federation of Planets?

First, what happen to a war? specially in a galactic war like that?

Planetary bombardment, convoy Interception, mass killing, Mass conscription, etc, etc, etc. And all of them effect the economy of the participant of war. Specially when the Federation is in the losing side. Although they haven't currency, but they still need resource. And resource is the most expensive things in a war.

So even with the Federation win at the end of the war, shouldn't the fight effect their economy?

What do you think?

Any particular reason it should?
The Federation is supposed to be an interstellar organization spanning 8000 ly's (from on-screen evidence alone).

Without currency/money of any kind, they would focus on technology and resources and what is achievable in a sustainable capacity with maximum efficiency and is in line with their latest scientific knowledge.

If you want to explain things in a equitable capacity, it would stand to reason that the Federation employs high levels of automation (negating the actual requirement for Humonaoids to work - unless they choose to).

In Trek, most of the combat scenarios involved taking out ship production facilities, resource production (such as Ketracel white on the Dominion side), etc.

Resources would be needed yes, but if you have an interstellar culture like the Federation which basically employs the notion of 'sustainability'... they would concentrate on using resources which can readily be produced in abundance.

Most of what Federation ships use for construction is Duranium for the hull.
I would surmise that these materials would have to be reproducible as a synthetic substance in abundance.
Dilithium crystals might be the only thing needed that cannot be synthesized... but we don't know for sure whether the Federation was able to create synthetic dilithium crystals by the 24th century.
We do know they also need Deuterium for 'fuel' (which really doesn't make any sense - but the stuff is basically 'everywhere' and it would be rather idiotic that a culture as advanced as the Federation wouldn't be able to synthesize it artificially).
The Feds can employ a number of highly sophisticated technology in the late 24th century even during war-times.

Besides, most of the 'core-planets' were not really feeling the effects of the war (except perhaps Betazed, and that 1 attack on Earth by the Breen).

The Federation supposedly has 150 member planets.
Each of those Solar systems would probably have massive amounts of ship production facilities, and various constructs that should/could easily produce more than enough.

The supply lines of certain resources might be a problem, but as I said... most of what the Federation needs could be made with the resources/technology they already have.

Replicators need only energy to work.
Create giant replicator-yards near a star, use the solar power for energy, and replicate away.
Automate the heck out of everything using robotics, and those highly advanced AI's (ships, shuttles, etc. can be automated completely).

I don't think the Federation would depend on any specific system for resources.
Each system would have to be self-sustaining - unless they are in the early stages of development (and this would mostly apply to developing colonies - but not mostly developed star systems).

 

[Jimi_James]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Deks makes many good points.

On a planet by planet basis, yes there would be some effect. But the Federation is massive, pulling in resources from 150 member worlds, who knows how many colonies, as well as allies that aren't even part of the Federation but simply maintain trading agreements.

And realistically the Federation wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket. They would be set up to the point that even if the Dominion had taken Earth and Mars, and destroyed Utopia Planitia, the war would have kept going.

As far as conscription and conquering a planet, by the time the Federation was in a position to start taking Dominion held worlds, the Klingon and the Romulan empires were also fighting with them. So while most of the fighting seemed to be taking place in the Alpha quadrant, the Federation wasn't shouldering the burden of the entire war and taking a planet wouldn't have been their sole responsibility. Raising a force to take a planet wouldn't have been a problem for three quadrant spanning powers that likely each have populations ranging in the trillions.

I seriously doubt Starfleet had to operate any sort of conscription service. I could see them offering some sort of basic training incentive program though. Something along the lines of singing up for a standard tour of duty as an engineer, medic, or security crewmen (some type of position that doesn't require the full Academy run) and when you're tour is up, you get a guaranteed placement at the Academy, forgoing the usual entrance exam.

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

well that is the problem. Yes, Federation has the automaton technology, replicator, etc. In peace time, they are abundant. But in a war, with massive planetary bombardment, convoy interception, etc, such luxury will be vanished. A dominion massive planetary bombardment could decrease the 24th century colony into stone age. And if that happen, how do you operate the "only god know how to create" Replicator Technology.

Even an idiot know that power supply, planetary infrastructures, freighter convoys, resource storage, etc are the first priority target in battle. And let we see the fact, that in 20th century only, a city bombardment could destroy everything. So how could the Dominion fleet with 24th century technology couldn't reduce a colony into stone age? And with the planetary power supply being bombarded by Dominion, how could repilicators work?

And let see the fact. Federation were lost. Dominion Force move deeply into their territory. Even it doesn't reach Earth, Vulcan, and Andoria, it's reach Betazed (if it's canonical). So we can assume that at least 1/3 of Federation territory has become the battlefield.

Say replicator can create anything just with Dilithium crystals (although I think that it is bullshit). But even with only Dilithium Crystal as the resource, they still need mines to extract the resource. And what happen if those mines got bombed by Dominion Forces?

And about 150 worlds..., we all know about supply and demand rules. What happen if 1/3 of those worlds being bombarded, hundreds of dilithium crystal mines being razed, millions of power supply and hundreds of freighters being destroyed? It will disturb the balance. The supplies won't be able to meet the demand, and the economy of the Federation of Planets will be disturbed if not crippled. And to say being "Disturbed" is already being very optimistic, because mostly it would cripple them good.

Well... unless Dominion are more than idiot, or Dominion War is actually ships shooting the other ships, and doesn't involve planetary assault at all.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I don't know if any of you are following the lit-verse, but there was recently an "all-out" confrontation between the Feds and the Borg, with much of the attendent issues you talk about, economic problems, refugees, etc.

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

what is lit-verse?

 

[Timo]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

The sum total of the novels, basically ("literature"), although sometimes the comics count, too.

As far as onscreen Trek is concerned, there weren't many instances of planetary conquest or destruction. A planet left unconquered or undestroyed would still be rendered irrelevant if no starships could sail to or fro; the industries could no longer serve the overall war effort in any way.

Would convoy interception be a factor in a war that supposedly involved "fronts"? The only things being shipped along vulnerable lines would be those going to the fighting forces; without cloaks, the Jem'Hadar wouldn't be in a position to hurt the internal connections of the UFP.

In general, it doesn't seem as if the UFP would have major industrial assets on the outer fringes; colonies appear to be founded as tiny agricultural communities, and only gradually grow from that. At any point of time, the Federation would be a self-sustaining entity from the inside, with a shell of tentative colonies, and hitting that shell would not reduce the self-sustenance. Nor would hitting the outer layers of the core necessarily mean that the inner layers would become less self-sustaining, considering that each layer supposedly added its own self-sustenance eventually. Sol alone could probably keep up the fight in direct proportion to the volume remaining under its control (that is, if the Sol system is one millionth of effective UFP volume, then Earth fights back with one millionth of the economic resources, not one trillionth), rather than face a sudden drop in fighting ability when a key offworld location was lost.

Of course, the UFP no doubt trades extensively with its near and far neighbors - possibly more extensively than, say, the Romulans or the Klingons do. An explicit example is Rutia from TNG "High Ground". Severing of trade routes might have an economic effect, then. But would that be more on the wealthy UFP, or on its isolated individual trade partners?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Brainsucker]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

So basically the war like Dominion War won't effect any major power economy in the galaxy. Both Dominion and Federation can war forever if there is no worm hole that limit their access?

 

[Unicron]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

The Federation supposedly has 150 member planets.
Each of those Solar systems would probably have massive amounts of ship production facilities, and various constructs that should/could easily produce more than enough.

That assumes that all 150 members (which one might argue are only major members, and that there are others like Bajor that have a more probationary/potential status) have equal resources, and I'm not sure that would be the case. Nor am I sure they'd all have massive facilities even if they had resource equality as a benefit of membership. Different regions are going to have different specialties, and it wouldn't make as much sense outside a wartime setting for all of them to producing the same amount unless it was a necessity.

Replicators need only energy to work.
Create giant replicator-yards near a star, use the solar power for energy, and replicate away.
Automate the heck out of everything using robotics, and those highly advanced AI's (ships, shuttles, etc. can be automated completely).

No, replicators use transporter technology to alter the form of matter. They don't simply create matter out of energy. That was one of the reasons the TNG TM talked about the idea of huge fleet scaled replicators not being practical. They would need templates to provide the matter and the energy involved presumably wouldn't be a fair trade compared to just replicating a meal. They're also stated to be unable to create substances like gold or dilithium, because those substances have very complex templates. Same reason they can't create living beings, although the aliens in "Allegiance" had replication technology that bypassed this problem.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

So basically the war like Dominion War won't effect any major power economy in the galaxy. Both Dominion and Federation can war forever if there is no worm hole that limit their access?

I wouldn't say that at all. No nation can fight a full-out war forever. Even if one conflict lasted for decades, eventually, one side will suffer more losses--if only in lives--than its leaders consider acceptable/feasible for victory and surrender, or both sides will come to a territorial agreement to end prolonged hostilities. That's probably how the Romulan Wars ended, IMO.

 

[arch101]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Don't worry- I'm SURE the Ferengi managed to make a couple of bucks from all sides during the war.

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

That assumes that all 150 members (which one might argue are only major members, and that there are others like Bajor that have a more probationary/potential status) have equal resources, and I'm not sure that would be the case. Nor am I sure they'd all have massive facilities even if they had resource equality as a benefit of membership. Different regions are going to have different specialties, and it wouldn't make as much sense outside a wartime setting for all of them to producing the same amount unless it was a necessity.

But at the same time, all 150 species that became part of the Federation have been members for years already (we are not counting prospective members like the Bajorans - who never did join during the course of DS9 as a show).

Those species would probably have well developed technological capabilities (in terms of space flight) and would have to be self-sustaining by the time they joined the Federation (meaning that providing for their own population would have to be a non-issue and other things such as space exploration and the likes would be done via creation of superior synthetic materials which can be made in abundance while using the least amount of energy and resources at the same time - heck, WE can do this, but don't because of the confines of the socio-economic system we live in).
For that matter, I doubt that SF would confine construction of its ships and structures to the SOL system (even though realistically, you could put millions of shipyards and space stations in just 1 system and you'd still have enormous/vast amounts of space to spare to make trillions more).

No, replicators use transporter technology to alter the form of matter. They don't simply create matter out of energy. That was one of the reasons the TNG TM talked about the idea of huge fleet scaled replicators not being practical. They would need templates to provide the matter and the energy involved presumably wouldn't be a fair trade compared to just replicating a meal. They're also stated to be unable to create substances like gold or dilithium, because those substances have very complex templates. Same reason they can't create living beings, although the aliens in "Allegiance" had replication technology that bypassed this problem.

Except that on-screen evidence states in TNG and Voyager that replicators convert energy into matter.
It was also said that the replicators are an outgrowth of transporter technology... but that doesn't mean it will work EXACTLY the same.
For actual creation of matter, replicators use plasma that powers the ship and convert it into matter (probably manipulating the particles of the plasma on a sub-atomic level).
Transporters convert matter into energy on one location then transfer that energy to another location and convert it into matter.
Replicators are power suckers (and for good reason).
Never was it mentioned that replicators require raw matter to create objects... it was stated they need energy.

Picard also mentioned to Moriarty in one of the episodes in TNG how Humanity discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.

I don't really care about whats written on memory Alpha because canonical evidence takes priority, and in this instance, it doesn't support the premise that replicators need matter to create matter.
Or which part of 'Replicators convert energy into matter' don't you understand?

We know the very same process occurs in Supernova's in real life (conversion of energy into matter).
The Federation (if anything) is basing their technology on how nature works (and we are beginning to do so as well), and they are supposed to be hundreds of years more advanced than us (even though in some areas they appear to be sorely lacking - but that basically comes down to writers being uninformed and dumbing things down).

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

That assumes that all 150 members (which one might argue are only major members, and that there are others like Bajor that have a more probationary/potential status) have equal resources, and I'm not sure that would be the case. Nor am I sure they'd all have massive facilities even if they had resource equality as a benefit of membership. Different regions are going to have different specialties, and it wouldn't make as much sense outside a wartime setting for all of them to producing the same amount unless it was a necessity.

But at the same time, all 150 species that became part of the Federation have been members for years already (we are not counting prospective members like the Bajorans - who never did join during the course of DS9 as a show).

Those species would probably have well developed technological capabilities (in terms of space flight) and would have to be self-sustaining by the time they joined the Federation (meaning that providing for their own population would have to be a non-issue and other things such as space exploration and the likes would be done via creation of superior synthetic materials which can be made in abundance while using the least amount of energy and resources at the same time - heck, WE can do this, but don't because of the confines of the socio-economic system we live in).
For that matter, I doubt that SF would confine construction of its ships and structures to the SOL system (even though realistically, you could put millions of shipyards and space stations in just 1 system and you'd still have enormous/vast amounts of space to spare to make trillions more).

No, replicators use transporter technology to alter the form of matter. They don't simply create matter out of energy. That was one of the reasons the TNG TM talked about the idea of huge fleet scaled replicators not being practical. They would need templates to provide the matter and the energy involved presumably wouldn't be a fair trade compared to just replicating a meal. They're also stated to be unable to create substances like gold or dilithium, because those substances have very complex templates. Same reason they can't create living beings, although the aliens in "Allegiance" had replication technology that bypassed this problem.

Except that on-screen evidence states in TNG and Voyager that replicators convert energy into matter.
It was also said that the replicators are an outgrowth of transporter technology... but that doesn't mean it will work EXACTLY the same.
For actual creation of matter, replicators use plasma that powers the ship and convert it into matter (probably manipulating the particles of the plasma on a sub-atomic level).
Transporters convert matter into energy on one location then transfer that energy to another location and convert it into matter.
Replicators are power suckers (and for good reason).
Never was it mentioned that replicators require raw matter to create objects... it was stated they need energy.

Picard also mentioned to Moriarty in one of the episodes in TNG how Humanity discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.

I don't really care about whats written on memory Alpha because canonical evidence takes priority, and in this instance, it doesn't support the premise that replicators need matter to create matter.
Or which part of 'Replicators convert energy into matter' don't you understand?

We know the very same process occurs in Supernova's in real life (conversion of energy into matter).
The Federation (if anything) is basing their technology on how nature works (and we are beginning to do so as well), and they are supposed to be hundreds of years more advanced than us (even though in some areas they appear to be sorely lacking - but that basically comes down to writers being uninformed and dumbing things down).

I generally agree with your interpretation of how Replicators can convert pure energy into matter. In the VOY episode "The Void", Voyager got a tech upgrade for the energy efficiency of their replicators from an allied member. Now they can replicate stuff at a significantly less energy cost (The Federation tech folks must've been happy when they discovered that piece of tech back home once Voyager returned given the replicator economy). Note they mention that the replicator uses energy, not just matter converted from one form from another.

I'm sure the replicator can convert matter from one form to another, there are many guides in ST Tech Manuals that mention matter tanks for replicators, however should the need arise, they can convert energy into matter. I guess by the time of VOY, energy is so abundant, that carrying massive amounts of matter tanks isn't necessary when they can store / generate so much power.

If you look at things from a logical perspective with Replicator 'Energy to Matter' vs. 'Matter to Matter' conversion, it should probably be cheaper in total energy cost to convert an existing form of matter like Carbon, add in the appropriate amount of electrons / protons / neutrons / etc to turn 1 atom of Carbon into 1 atom of Iron then to start from scratch and have to form each Iron Atom out of pure energy.

So there is value to having matter tanks, but not necessarily for basic atoms, but for probably some of the harder to produce materials like Duranium which is probably a very complicated alloy of some sort from my understanding. You don't need alot of matter tanks, but just enough to make it cheaper on energy costs to make more complicated matter.

Basically there is a valid argument for both methods of replication based on efficiency. Since Energy / Matter is the two most important resources within the UFP, I would assume that they would do everything in their power to make replicators as energy efficient as possible and try to run more traditional forms of material fabrication if it made energy / resource sense to do so.

 

[Deks]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I would agree that replicators might have the ability of manipulating matter from one state into another, but we know their basic operation is: Conversion of energy to matter (not the other way around) - at least when it comes to matter replication/creation.
They do have recycling capability which effectively converts matter into energy (back into the EPS power grid - lowered amount of course since the meal is gone, but the utensils, plates and glass will be converted into same energy that went out most likely) - though this method could be used by for example to simply 'recycle' metals and alloys found in asteroids or void solar systems that would effectively yield high energy reserves.
We hadn't seen replicators manipulate the structure of an existing object and turn it into another object because the crews of any Federation ship would sooner recycle the objects in question into energy so they could replicate something of use later when the actual need arises (this would be a sensible approach).

If you noticed, in early seasons of Voyager, Replicators were used sparingly because they were an energy intensive system and the ship experienced power issues ever since it was pulled into the DQ (which probably damaged the power systems to an extent that lowered overall power reserves and in turn instilled limitations on how much replicators can be used - at least until Voyager managed to find areas of space they could use for antimatter creation - such as omicron particles from 'the Cloud' - never used but perhaps other sources were found aside from making trade with races).

But, I really don't see why any Federation ship equipped with replicators simply couldn't park near a Star, and use the solar power for matter replication (instead of ships energy).
I would agree it would take some fiddling with the power systems to accept solar power, but ultimately, the Federation is able to manipulate energy and convert it from one state into another (using plasma manifolds which we've seen), meaning that a Star could relatively easily be used as an external power supply for replicators on ships to stock up on necessary materials, create vast amounts of hardware, spare parts, new torpedoes [minus the anti-matter - unless they could create some sort of mini facility on board for its creation] self-sustaining systems, etc.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I would agree that replicators might have the ability of manipulating matter from one state into another, but we know their basic operation is: Conversion of energy to matter (not the other way around) - at least when it comes to matter replication/creation.
They do have recycling capability which effectively converts matter into energy (back into the EPS power grid - lowered amount of course since the meal is gone, but the utensils, plates and glass will be converted into same energy that went out most likely) - though this method could be used by for example to simply 'recycle' metals and alloys found in asteroids or void solar systems that would effectively yield high energy reserves.
We hadn't seen replicators manipulate the structure of an existing object and turn it into another object because the crews of any Federation ship would sooner recycle the objects in question into energy so they could replicate something of use later when the actual need arises (this would be a sensible approach).

If you noticed, in early seasons of Voyager, Replicators were used sparingly because they were an energy intensive system and the ship experienced power issues ever since it was pulled into the DQ (which probably damaged the power systems to an extent that lowered overall power reserves and in turn instilled limitations on how much replicators can be used - at least until Voyager managed to find areas of space they could use for antimatter creation - such as omicron particles from 'the Cloud' - never used but perhaps other sources were found aside from making trade with races).

But, I really don't see why any Federation ship equipped with replicators simply couldn't park near a Star, and use the solar power for matter replication (instead of ships energy).
I would agree it would take some fiddling with the power systems to accept solar power, but ultimately, the Federation is able to manipulate energy and convert it from one state into another (using plasma manifolds which we've seen), meaning that a Star could relatively easily be used as an external power supply for replicators on ships to stock up on necessary materials, create vast amounts of hardware, spare parts, new torpedoes [minus the anti-matter - unless they could create some sort of mini facility on board for its creation] self-sustaining systems, etc.

I totally agree, they should be using local Stars as free power when they can. Why not since it's free, if they don't convert the sunlight and any other form of energy emission into useable power, it's wasted by beaming into space. So might as well.

As far as converting things back into energy, that is one option, but it'd probably be cheaper energy wise to shove the recycled items into a matter tank and just reassemble it into something useful later than have to make a brand new item from energy.

Converting matter back to energy is probably not 100% efficient, so there will be some loss to converting back, it's probably not that bad, but still, you'd want to minimize loss of energy through the system.