TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[R. Star]

Far Beyond the Stars is just one of those episodes I suppose I don't "get." Though often enough when I voice this though, DS9 fans look at me as if I was speaking blasphemy or something. It's an interesting premise and certainly it's fun to see all the characters out of makeup, but the overall theme of it really doesn't seem to have anything to do with DS9's story arc.

Certainly racism in the 50's is a worthwhile theme to write about, this isn't really what Star Trek should be doing. If they wanted to do a show about the horrors of racism, hello they have several races that hate each other most prominently the Bajorans and Cardassians.

So the whole episode just seems rather out of place, and too close to a time travel episode for my tastes. Supposedly, I heard somewhere, it was considered to have What We Leave Behind close with Benny writing it as a finish script and I'm glad they didn't do that. It really would've just been a facepalm moment turning that hilarious It's a fake/It's real! youtube video into a general application to the whole series.

 

[flemm]

This is one of those things that writers often seem to find cute or thought-provoking and I just find annoying. Is Benny Russell real, writing sci-fi stories in 1950s New York? Or is Benjamin Sisko real, experiencing visions on a space station in the 24th century? Neither! They're both constructs of a bunch of Hollywood writers in the 1990s.

Well, from that point of view, I can understand why you would find it annoying.

But the point of it isn't really for you to wonder which is real. Obviously neither is real, but you are not expected to hesitate about that. It's assumed that you will notice that neither is real, as you say, and the point is more to make you think about why the stories we tell about our past and future might be important.

Obviously, this episode wants to be a bit of a tribute to the type of stories told in Star Trek, i.e. presenting an optimistic vision of the future, where humanity has united and accomplished a lot of amazing things, helps make that future possible.

You can see it as the writers motivating themselves in a sense. Why are we doing this? Oh, that's why. (So, that's like Sisko being re-motivated because of his "vision.")

Writing about writing like that can be a little self-indulgent, but I think it's handled in an entertaining way here, so I like the episode.

 

[Seven of Five]

I agree with flemm - I really love Far Beyond The Stars. 50s racism may seem a bit out of date on a 90s show, but DS9 was using their black lead to their full advantage here, and it was well played.

One Little Ship is another random fluff episode, though they seem to try and give it a bit more gravitas by having conflict between Alpha and Gamma Jem'Hadar. I liked the concept of that, but it was dropped quicker than a hot potato. In that regard, they were simply the wrong enemy in the episode.

On its own, I enjoy it enough to be three stars; cheesy fun doesn't even start to describe it. But I guess that with it being yet another fluff episode, and also that the Jem'Hadar issue just disappears, I'd say two and a half is probably right.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well, from that point of view, I can understand why you would find it annoying.

But the point of it isn't really for you to wonder which is real. Obviously neither is real, but you are not expected to hesitate about that. It's assumed that you will notice that neither is real, as you say, and the point is more to make you think about why the stories we tell about our past and future might be important.

Well, I'm thinking particularly about how the writers were tempted to end DS9 with the revelation that Benny Russell was real and that DS9 was a show within a show. That sort of ending might work for a movie, or for a TV series that planned it out from the beginning and left hints along the way, but just throwing that ending into the final two seasons and pretending that that was the intention from the beginning would have been disastrous for the show. It would be like The Sopranos ending with the revelation that Tony really was a precision optics salesman, as he dreamt he was in his coma in season 6, and that Tony Soprano and the rest of the characters from the show were nothing but figments of an Alzheimer's riddled mind.


Honor Among Thieves (***½)

GELNON: ...and that's our devious plan.
O'BRIEN: Makes sense.
GELNON: I'm glad you think so. Needless to say, it is very important that the Dominion's part in this remain secret.
O'BRIEN: Then why did you tell us your plan?
RAIMUS: Shut up, mooby. If something goes wrong and you're captured, you never met our friend here.
O'BRIEN: Why did we meet him? You could have just told us to kill the Klingon ambassador and Bilby would have done it, no questions asked.
RAIMUS: Don't question me!
O'BRIEN: I'm just saying that if we get captured and interrogated, or if one of us is secretly working for Starfleet, this unnecessary meeting would have compromised your whole plan. You understand that, right?
RAIMUS: Any other comments, wiseguy?
O'BRIEN: Yeah, has anyone bothered to tell Gelnon that those ears and that green coat make him look like an elf?

Honor Among Thieves doesn't have a terribly original story, the tale of the police officer/spy/space station engineer that works undercover with the mob/street gangs/an interstellar criminal consortium and becomes emotionally involved with its members is one as old as film-making itself. But what this episode lacks in originality, it makes up for with some interesting character material and a tragic ending. It's an entertaining drama that doesn't reach greatness, but it's not a bad way to spend an hour.

It's a little odd that O'Brien is the one drafted for this mission, but the episode tries to explain this by revealing that Starfleet Intelligence is compromised and they needed to find someone from outside their ranks. When you consider that the Orion Syndicate would be looking out for people with technical expertise, and that O'Brien is a combat veteran should the assignment go south, I'm willing to accept that O'Brien is a good candidate for the job. Also, Starfleet records show that he's good at handling torturous emotional situations, and he spent 30 years in prison, so he understands thug life. What's not so understandable is how DS9 falls apart without O'Brien. Maybe that computer puppy from The Forsaken got out and went on a rampage because O'Brien wasn't around to give it attention. Say, whatever happened to that thing while the Dominion occupied the station?

 

[Sykonee]

What's not so understandable is how DS9 falls apart without O'Brien. Maybe that computer puppy from The Forsaken got out and went on a rampage because O'Brien wasn't around to give it attention. Say, whatever happened to that thing while the Dominion occupied the station?

Unintended casualty during the great mainframe meltdown at the end of Call To Arms.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

This is a strange detail to focus on, but one of the things I find fascinating about Honor Among Thieves is that Farius Prime is in fact a planet that's been mentioned before. You see, I always assumed Farius Prime was called such because, in everything from who we meet there to how it's visually presented, it's the setting's "wretched hive". It's a nefarious place, and "farius prime" is therefore a cute name. But apparently the debut of the name Farius Prime was in season 2, when a random freighter was said to be leaving random planet 1 for random planet 2, and random planet 2 happened to be named...Farius Prime. I'm assuming that the decision to use this planet as the setting of Honor Among Thieves is still entirely due to the name being cute, but I'm impressed that - rather than invent a planet - they remembered a random unimportant world from a much earlier script that had an "appropriate" sounding name...

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

And I did have Star Trek toys, especially those little Micro Machines Star Trek ships, and I used to fly them around the rooms of my house and pretend that they were a shrunk down version of the Enterprise fighting off a shrunk down Galor-class ship in the epic battle of the coffee table.

Those were some of the best toys. I still have a couple that have survived all the years (one being rescued from a friend's old house when he moved; I had to be the one that gave it to him, as he was a dirty Star Wars fan )...and one of them is the Galor. Sitting on my desk right now, in fact.

 

[TheGodBen]

Unintended casualty during the great mainframe meltdown at the end of Call To Arms.

Aww, I used to think that was such a badass scene, but now whenever I see it I'll be thinking about the tragic death of O'Brien's tamagotchi.


Change of Heart (***½)

When DS9 first aired over here, I already had it spoiled for me that Jadzia was going to die in the sixth season, but I didn't know how. So as I was watching this episode I genuinely thought that this was it, this was the episode where she was going to die, so when the episode ended semi-safely and Jadzia lived it felt like a major cop-out. My appreciation for the episode grew when I rewatched it on DVD, but I still feel that this would have been a better way to kill off Jadzia than red-eye Dukat randomly shooting her with his magical fire-beam. Even Terry Farrell felt this would have been the perfect way to exit the show. What's more, killing Jadzia now would have allowed them to introduce Ezri earlier and prevented her from dominating the first half of season 7.

This is easily the best episode about the Jadzia/Worf relationship, and it has some good banter between them. I'm not such a big fan of Worf's speech at the end though, he attempts to explain a very standard, very understandable decision in a Klingon way, because people in the audience may not have realised over the last 11 years that he's a Klingon. "The Klingon heart beats because it's forged with blood and stuff." It's just love, Worf, stop try to put a macho spin on it.

This episode also has half a b-story because Ron Moore didn't want to mix inconsequential fluff with a heavy a-story. He probably should have just dropped the b-story together, but I suppose there's only so much you can write about two characters trekking through the Star Trek jungle set. I'm not a fan of Bashir and Quark being in love with Jadzia as well, I don't know what the point of that was. Frankly, Bashir's obsession for Jadzia in the first season seemed to be driven primarily by his penis and not an emotional attachment to her (not to mention how creepy he was), so bringing that back and claiming that he was in love with her all along doesn't work. As for Quark, his attraction to Jadzia was always played as a joke, and he was intentionally creepy. That wasn't love, that was desire for oo-mox.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Unintended casualty during the great mainframe meltdown at the end of Call To Arms.

Aww, I used to think that was such a badass scene, but now whenever I see it I'll be thinking about the tragic death of O'Brien's tamagotchi.

It could be worse. My tamagotchi was lost when I dropped it down the toilet.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

My appreciation for the episode grew when I rewatched it on DVD, but I still feel that this would have been a better way to kill off Jadzia than red-eye Dukat randomly shooting her with his magical fire-beam. Even Terry Farrell felt this would have been the perfect way to exit the show.

Also, it would have made the war arc even more engaging, if one of the major characters died mid-season on a mission. Puncturing the bubble of safety around main characters is always a good way to up the stakes.

One of the problems I have with the way Jadzia dies is that while it wins points from me for acknowledging the often casual brutality of death, it just feels rather contrived. That sense of contrivance doesn't sit easily with the admirable decision to have her death be sudden and pointless, and that weakens the impact. "One day, you too might be visiting a temple when your best friend's arch-nemesis suddenly appears, possessed by the devil, and randomly kills you because you were in the way" just doesn't have any real emotional power. It can't offer much implicit commentary on death and risk and loss because it's too fantastical. "If you're in a dangerous profession you might not come back from a mission" has a genuine punch that is relatable and so would have added gravitas to Jadzia's death without detracting from the sense of shock or waste.

 

[DS9Continuing]

My personal suggestion regarding Jadzia's death was that the Dominion should have invaded Trill instead of Betazed, that that's what would have driven Sisko to bring the Romulans into the war, and that the season ending arc would have been Starfleet's attempts to free Trill. That would have brought the Trill into the core story of the series in a way they never were, and given Jadzia an excellent opportunity to die in battle. The ultimate direction of the series would have barely been changed at all, but Dax's role in the whole thing would have been greatly improved.

.

 

[Ln X]

My personal suggestion regarding Jadzia's death was that the Dominion should have invaded Trill instead of Betazed, that that's what would have driven Sisko to bring the Romulans into the war, and that the season ending arc would have been Starfleet's attempts to free Trill. That would have brought the Trill into the core story of the series in a way they never were, and given Jadzia an excellent opportunity to die in battle. The ultimate direction of the series would have barely been changed at all, but Dax's role in the whole thing would have been greatly improved.

.

Problem is Trill is so underdeveloped (plotwise) as a planet that it would have no real significance and the only point of interest would be Jadzia's reaction to all this. But if she died in battle that would have messed up how Worf's character developed in season 7, and how Worf and Ezri interacted.

Besides by season 6 Jadzia sort of faded into the background so when they bumped her off it kind of paid dividends for the rest of the main characters, and gave the first several episodes of season 7 something meaty to portray.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Problem is Trill is so underdeveloped (plotwise) as a planet that it would have no real significance and the only point of interest would be Jadzia's reaction to all this.

Exactly my point. Doing that would have given Trill the significance it never otherwise had, and as a planet it's certainly tied a lot closer to the characters of this show than Betazed ever was.

.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

. My appreciation for the episode grew when I rewatched it on DVD, but I still feel that this would have been a better way to kill off Jadzia than red-eye Dukat randomly shooting her with his magical fire-beam. Even Terry Farrell felt this would have been the perfect way to exit the show. What's more, killing Jadzia now would have allowed them to introduce Ezri earlier and prevented her from dominating the first half of season 7.

Totally agree. Heck, they could have even moved the episode later in the season like right after "Time's Orphan" and added some planning for baby discussions. It also would have made for a nice sub plot of Worf dealing with the fact that her death was his fault, which could have also added an extra layer of tension between him and Ezri.

 

[Paper Moon]

I actually don't see a need to attribute his changed attitude to a psychological condition. During Operation Return, Sisko was high on adrenaline. Now he's comparatively low and he's dealing with the consequences of a massively destructive war, without being able to do anything about it. He's experiencing huge levels of stress, and he even admits that everyone might have been expecting a let-up in the conflict after DS9 was retaken, which would then add disappointment on top of the stress.

You make some interesting points and I agree with a lot of what you say, but the core of my problem is right here. Like with Bashir's ego taking over in Statistical Probabilities, I don't have a problem with Sisko feeling depressed and considering leaving Starfleet, it's just presented poorly. Some friend that we've never heard of before, but who is apparently of huge emotional significance to Sisko, dies off-screen and suddenly sends Sisko off the deep end. It comes across as incredibly artificial, and since that's the foundation of the entire episode it weakens the whole story.

When Jadzia dies and Sisko is isolated from the Prophets, it makes sense to me at that point for Sisko to lose faith and leave Starfleet behind, those are two elements of his life that have been established as being important to him. If the Benny Russell visions had come to Sisko following those events, that would have been much, much more satisfying to me as a viewer because it would have meant something. The framing story for Far Beyond the Stars lacks that meaning that it really needs for me to get fully invested in it.

Yeah, you present a great point. While I agree that it is a weak point, I don't think it's as weak as you present. I had a good friend for four years, a while back. Life took us our separate ways and we haven't seen each other in person since. We've kept in touch sporadically over the years. Many people close to me nowadays haven't heard much, if anything, about this old friend.

Compared to many other things, this old friend isn't of huge emotional significance. But, in absolute terms, he is of huge significance. (It's just that, in absolute terms, the people who are present in my life today are of yet larger significance.) So if I found out that this friend had died in a war, it would have a profound effect on me. I could see the same thing happening to Sisko.

So, personally, all I need is Sisko's word that Swafford's death is affecting for him. But I certainly agree that it's a weakness in the storytelling of the episode, and that it's always better to show than tell.

Honor Among Thieves (***½)

Honor Among Thieves doesn't have a terribly original story, the tale of the police officer/spy/space station engineer that works undercover with the mob/street gangs/an interstellar criminal consortium and becomes emotionally involved with its members is one as old as film-making itself. But what this episode lacks in originality, it makes up for with some interesting character material and a tragic ending. It's an entertaining drama that doesn't reach greatness, but it's not a bad way to spend an hour.

This. Very well put. This is one of my go-to episodes when I want to have a good DS9 on while I'm doing something else (but not good enough that I'll be totally distracted by it).

My appreciation for the episode grew when I rewatched it on DVD, but I still feel that this would have been a better way to kill off Jadzia than red-eye Dukat randomly shooting her with his magical fire-beam. Even Terry Farrell felt this would have been the perfect way to exit the show.

Also, it would have made the war arc even more engaging, if one of the major characters died mid-season on a mission. Puncturing the bubble of safety around main characters is always a good way to up the stakes.

One of the problems I have with the way Jadzia dies is that while it wins points from me for acknowledging the often casual brutality of death, it just feels rather contrived. That sense of contrivance doesn't sit easily with the admirable decision to have her death be sudden and pointless, and that weakens the impact. "One day, you too might be visiting a temple when your best friend's arch-nemesis suddenly appears, possessed by the devil, and randomly kills you because you were in the way" just doesn't have any real emotional power. It can't offer much implicit commentary on death and risk and loss because it's too fantastical. "If you're in a dangerous profession you might not come back from a mission" has a genuine punch that is relatable and so would have added gravitas to Jadzia's death without detracting from the sense of shock or waste.

Jadzia dying for real in this episode is an interesting idea, but we'd lose a really great character development moment for Worf. Compare his attitude in TNG's "Homeward"; duty this, duty that. And here, he's finally grown beyond that. This is really a pivotal moment for Worf, and removing it would mean that his reaction to Jadzia's eventual death would not be as meaningful. Going back to stoic-Worf after being willing-to-forsake-duty-Worf is more interesting than going back to stoic-Worf after being not-quite-willing-to-forsake-duty-Worf, which is less interesting and less compelling.

 

[Ln X]

. My appreciation for the episode grew when I rewatched it on DVD, but I still feel that this would have been a better way to kill off Jadzia than red-eye Dukat randomly shooting her with his magical fire-beam. Even Terry Farrell felt this would have been the perfect way to exit the show. What's more, killing Jadzia now would have allowed them to introduce Ezri earlier and prevented her from dominating the first half of season 7.

Totally agree. Heck, they could have even moved the episode later in the season like right after "Time's Orphan" and added some planning for baby discussions. It also would have made for a nice sub plot of Worf dealing with the fact that her death was his fault, which could have also added an extra layer of tension between him and Ezri.

But would there be enough time to retrieve the Dax symbiont before it then snuffed it if Worf had left Jadzia to die?

 

[Worf'sParmach]

. My appreciation for the episode grew when I rewatched it on DVD, but I still feel that this would have been a better way to kill off Jadzia than red-eye Dukat randomly shooting her with his magical fire-beam. Even Terry Farrell felt this would have been the perfect way to exit the show. What's more, killing Jadzia now would have allowed them to introduce Ezri earlier and prevented her from dominating the first half of season 7.

Totally agree. Heck, they could have even moved the episode later in the season like right after "Time's Orphan" and added some planning for baby discussions. It also would have made for a nice sub plot of Worf dealing with the fact that her death was his fault, which could have also added an extra layer of tension between him and Ezri.

But would there be enough time to retrieve the Dax symbiont before it then snuffed it if Worf had left Jadzia to die?

Oh, they could have stretched out a dramatic death that would allow Jadzia to die on DS9 rather than him simply finding her dead. Worf gets her back to the shuttle, gets her in stasis on the runabout and then back to DS9 but alas it is all for naught, the Good Doctor can't save Jadzia, only the Dax symbiont. That last scene between Worf and Jadzia becomes their goodbye scene. Then we get to watch Worf slowly lose his mind knowing her death was his fault.

 

[callea]

I agree it would have probably worked better to have Jadzia die here and introduce Ezri mid-season instead of the first half of season 7.

Oh, they could have stretched out a dramatic death that would allow Jadzia to die on DS9 rather than him simply finding her dead. Worf gets her back to the shuttle, gets her in stasis on the runabout and then back to DS9 but alas it is all for naught, the Good Doctor can't save Jadzia, only the Dax symbiont. That last scene between Worf and Jadzia becomes their goodbye scene. Then we get to watch Worf slowly lose his mind knowing her death was his fault.

I've never found Worf interesting, especially on DS9. The only times I don't want to fast forward through his scenes are when Bashir and O'Brien were also involved. I found his issues with Jadzia's death pretty boring, but if he had to deal with it being his fault, that might have been less of a snooze fest for me.

Taking your idea a step further... what if Worf made the same choice he did -- Jadzia over duty -- but by the time he brought her back to DS9, it was too late and only the symbiont could be saved. (Which would probably require her to have a different type of injury -- one that couldn't be treated with the medical equipment on the runabout.)

What if both Jadzia and the guy they were supposed to save died?

You still get Worf choosing to forsake duty. But he has more to deal with than just Jadzia's death. He has the lose-lose situation where his sacrifice of duty was unrewarded and he has guilt over not protecting Jadzia. And the Dax symbiont survives.

Or is that too dark?

 

[Seven of Five]

That's pretty dark but it would have been good. Better than her death by Dukat anyway. Actually I think anything would have been better than what we did get. Perhaps she could have gone to spend her life with that guy from Meridian?

I really like Change of Heart, but got to agree with the consensus that says it would have been better for Jadzia to die at this point, rather than her ultimate, less interesting fate.

 

[TheGodBen]

It could be worse. My tamagotchi was lost when I dropped it down the toilet.

Drowning is a terrible way to go.

That sense of contrivance doesn't sit easily with the admirable decision to have her death be sudden and pointless, and that weakens the impact.

Agreed. Randomly dying in a car crash is tragic and says something about the frailty of life. Randomly dying to a demonically-possessed madman is just weird and doesn't say anything.

My personal suggestion regarding Jadzia's death was that the Dominion should have invaded Trill instead of Betazed, that that's what would have driven Sisko to bring the Romulans into the war, and that the season ending arc would have been Starfleet's attempts to free Trill. That would have brought the Trill into the core story of the series in a way they never were, and given Jadzia an excellent opportunity to die in battle. The ultimate direction of the series would have barely been changed at all, but Dax's role in the whole thing would have been greatly improved.

.

That's an excellent idea. The Trill are an extremely generic species that are very hard to care about even though two main cast members are Trill. Making Trill a focal point of the war, and witnessing Dax's response to that, would have given them more character and added weight to previous episodes that focused on the Trill.

That's pretty dark but it would have been good. Better than her death by Dukat anyway. Actually I think anything would have been better than what we did get. Perhaps she could have gone to spend her life with that guy from Meridian?

Too risky, the mere mention of the name of that planet would have driven a substantial portion of the audience to suicide. And that would have been bad for season 7's ratings.


Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night (*½)

I don't like retcons, but if they add something worthwhile to the show, if they explain some previous uncertainty, or if they introduce something which is built upon meaningfully later, I can be at peace with them. Sadly, the revelation that Kira's mother was shacked up with Dukat several decades ago doesn't do any of these things, and I actually feel it hurts the show overall. The Kira/Dukat dynamic was perfect the way it was, and it felt as real as a relationship between a former alien terrorist and a former alien dictator could feel. It was complex, it was layered, it was multi-faceted, and a whole bunch of other clichés. But this episode tried to add more complexity to their relationship that it really didn't need, and the end-result actually made things simpler and less interesting. It's like a Jenga tower that has grown into a wonderfully chaotic shape, but then someone has the bright idea of putting a cement brick on top of it and in the aftermath all you're left with is the bottom layers of the tower and the brick.

I hope at least someone out there understands what that metaphor is supposed to mean.

Then there's the time-travel aspect of the story. Oh boy. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't like the casual use of time-travel, and this is about as casual as things get. Kira wants to know whether her mother was romantically involved with Dukat, so rather than continue her investigation in the present by checking the records or interviewing Bajorans that worked on the station at that time, SHE TRAVELS BACK IN TIME! She decides to do one of the most reckless things a person can do, to mess around with causality itself, and not only does Sisko consider this a reasonable request, the Gods do too. I'm beginning to sympathise with the Dominion, they wouldn't stand for this kind of shit.

The episode isn't all bad, any chance to see Terok Nor again is welcome, although it's not nearly as visually interesting this time because it's too bright. When we saw Terok Nor in previous episodes it was moody and dark, but in this episode the station seems to be even brighter than it is when the Federation is in charge, which makes no sense considering the Cardassians don't like things too bright. Another plus for the episode is that Nana Visitor has gotten to be really good at playing a tormented soul dealing with morally complex issues, and she almost makes the episode work. Almost.