How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

[R. Star]

Well, whatever her crimes, we know what the sentence will be. She'll be sentenced to 6 months of rehabilitative therapy, maybe in conjunction with "hard" labor in the New Zealand penal colony. Then she'll probably be returned to society as a productive member again. Maybe she'll even want to go back to her colony near the wormhole and help introduce the latest technological innovations to her former followers.

Garak only got six months for attempted genocide along with a slew of assault/sabotage charges. By all accounts he got out early too.

Kassidy got six months to a year for smuggling for terrorists.

Paris was an actual member of a terrorist group and literally got out of jail free. Even in the alternate future where he didn't go to the Delta Quadrant he was out of jail in a few months.

The Federation penal system is ridiculously nice. Alixius probably would be out of jail in a few months.

 

[Pavonis]

What matters is that the UFP's justice system is effective. What's their recidivism rate? Kasidy never offended again. Garak never attempted genocide again. Paris...well, he did end up in the brig again. So their repeat offense rate is at least only 33%, and probably lower.

 

[R. Star]

What matters is that the UFP's justice system is effective. What's their recidivism rate? Kasidy never offended again. Garak never attempted genocide again. Paris...well, he did end up in the brig again. So their repeat offense rate is at least only 33%, and probably lower.

Uh.. Garak was NOT rehabilitated. He pulled off his biggest feats after Broken Link.

 

[Pavonis]

I said he never attempted genocide again. Like his lies, Garak never commits the exact same crime twice.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Haven't there been a few WTF moments when someone did something really bad, and they would be let off scott free with the crew laughing and warping off somewhere in the end?

Alixus's people shot arrows at Obrien while he was trying to escape, obviously with the intent to kill.

As for the colony, it was a cult, plain and simple. It had all the extremist elements of one and she had all the qualities of a cult leader.

Come back a few centuries later and you'd probably find a crazy, zenophobic colony that thinks technology and the people that use it are evil.

 

[Michael]

Only in the time when Sisko and O'Brien were there, though. Before they came, the entire colony was devoid of any modern medical treatments for illnesses or injuries. I can only see that one death being a result of Alixus' decisions and actions.

Now wait a minute, are you sure we watched the same episode? The colonist's medical instruments – which would have helped those poor dying souls – didn't work because of the field installed by Alixus! So of course she's responsible for not helping them. She was deliberately letting them die and even says so in the end. It's hard to fathom how someone can misinterpret and defend her actions in such a way.

 

[Pavonis]

It's more interesting than just condemning her as everyone else is doing. This thread certainly wouldn't have lasted this long if there weren't a contrary view to stimulate conversation.

The Alixus character is unlikeable and her actions were shameful, but it's interesting to try and defend her somewhat. At least it's interesting to try and see how the Federation would handle her. The UFP is not just the USA on an interstellar stage.

 

[sonak]

It's more interesting than just condemning her as everyone else is doing. This thread certainly wouldn't have lasted this long if there weren't a contrary view to stimulate conversation.

The Alixus character is unlikeable and her actions were shameful, but it's interesting to try and defend her somewhat. At least it's interesting to try and see how the Federation would handle her. The UFP is not just the USA on an interstellar stage.

there's defending her motivations and intentions, and then there is just being incorrect from a factual standpoint. Saying that Alixus is responsible for those deaths because she deliberately sabotaged the means that would have helped them is a pretty straightforward claim.


Again, let's take a hypothetical. Someone in a house is dying and needs to go to a hospital. Fortunately, the hospital is only 15 minutes away by car, and if the person can reach the hospital in 20-25 minutes, they'll be okay. But wait! The tires on the car have been slashed, and it later turns out this was done deliberately by someone who didn't want to have the person taken to the hospital. They wanted to try a new magical cure using crystals at home, and so they slashed the tires to prevent the car from being taken. (assume for the hypothetical that ambulances or neighbors' cars aren't available)


That is basically like what Alixus did.

 

[Pavonis]

Ok, here are my questions.

Was Alixus and her colony subject to UFP law?

If so, was what she did illegal?

 

[Elias Vaughn]

If you invite a bunch of people to a party at a beach resort but instead drive them all to an abandoned warehouse on the bad side of town because you like warehouses better than beaches, I'd argue that you're at the very least partially at fault for all the murders the man with a hook for a hand commits on them.

edit: Also, are we entirely sure her name wasn't Alexis? because I always thought it was.

 

[sonak]

Ok, here are my questions.

Was Alixus and her colony subject to UFP law?

If so, was what she did illegal?

didn't we just go through this? It would be kidnapping or false imprisonment. She kept those colonists there against their will and through deception prevented them from leaving or making contact with someone who could help them. If someone in the real world did what she did, it would be a crime with most likely a pretty long sentence.


Why wouldn't the colony be subject to UFP law? The colonists weren't attempting to secede, and they were all citizens when they left, right?

Of course, as others have pointed out, under UFP law she probably would get six months at a minimum security rehab facility.

 

[MacLeod]

I feel like we are just going around in circles. If Alixus had gathered together a group of people who wished to live without technology fair enough.

But what she actually did was in hijack a group of people who didn't want to give up technology. She kept the duonetic field which she helped design active when it could have saved people. If people die because of a crime you commited you can be held accountable for those deaths.

She was also a hypocrite she didn't believe in technology yet used technology to create the duonetic field. What was to stop her living without technolgy where she lived before setting out life of her life of crime

 

[Pavonis]

Ok, here are my questions.

Was Alixus and her colony subject to UFP law?

If so, was what she did illegal?

didn't we just go through this? It would be kidnapping or false imprisonment. She kept those colonists there against their will and through deception prevented them from leaving or making contact with someone who could help them. If someone in the real world did what she did, it would be a crime with most likely a pretty long sentence.

For a group that has supposedly been kidnapped and/or falsely imprisoned, they don't seem eager to leave. They don't even seem particularly upset by the situation. So, are they really victims? They don't act like victims.

Why wouldn't the colony be subject to UFP law? The colonists weren't attempting to secede, and they were all citizens when they left, right?

I ask because we don't really know what constitutes citizenship in the UFP. If a species joins the UFP, are all members of that species citizens no matter what? Can Federation citizenship be renounced? If a colony exists without the Federation's knowledge or consent, how can it be subject to Federation law? I also note that Alixus set up her colony-cult in the region near the wormhole. The wormhole is in the Bajor system, and when she set the colony up, the system was under Cardassian control. If the entire sector was under Cardassia's control, then I would say it's likely the colony was set up outside Federation territory. If it was set up outside Federation territory, how can Federation law be applied?

Of course, as others have pointed out, under UFP law she probably would get six months at a minimum security rehab facility.

Yes. I pointed that out. I notice that Alixus is not a well-liked character. I don't like her either. I don't think she's supposed to be likeable. But the UFP isn't 21st century America, and criminals, deviants, and psychologically disturbed people are treated differently there than now. We'd consider Alixus a criminal now, but the Federation criminal justice system might classify her as a psychologically disturbed individual who needs help, not punishment. That's if they even consider her to be within their jurisdiction. Having operated outside Federation space, she might be let off scot-free because she didn't break any laws while within the Federation.

 

[MacLeod]

It was no doubt a Federation colony transport that was used. It was either sabotaged so it went off course or piloted off course (i.e stolen/hijacked).

I would imagine most of the colonists where in shock at what Alixus had done. So perhaps after the initial shock had worn off they might feel differently

 

[Pavonis]

So use of Federation technology means the user is bound by Federation law?

 

[R. Star]

They don't stop being Federation citizens just because they're "marooned" on another planet.

 

[Pavonis]

Oh? Is that canonical? Or just your personal preference?

 

[R. Star]

Oh? Is that canonical? Or just your personal preference?

It's called common sense. If I was stranded on an island 20 years, I'd still be a US citizen.

OMG we never saw anyone use the restroom on screen!!! Humans must not pee in the 24th century! It's not canon!

 

[Pavonis]

When you think about it, very little of life is constrained by "common sense", and common sense is very uncommon. Besides, if Star Trek plots were constrained by common sense, there would be very little of it worth watching.

You think it's common sense that the UFP must operate in a way you find acceptable. I don't agree that it has to be constrained by what we would consider "common sense" nowadays. Why should a multi-species interstellar polity have laws that make sense to 21st century Americans?

And if you were stranded on an island for 20 years, the American government would likely declare you dead, and dead people aren't citizens.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Ok, here are my questions.

Was Alixus and her colony subject to UFP law?

If so, was what she did illegal?

didn't we just go through this? It would be kidnapping or false imprisonment. She kept those colonists there against their will and through deception prevented them from leaving or making contact with someone who could help them. If someone in the real world did what she did, it would be a crime with most likely a pretty long sentence.

For a group that has supposedly been kidnapped and/or falsely imprisoned, they don't seem eager to leave. They don't even seem particularly upset by the situation. So, are they really victims? They don't act like victims.

If a kidnapped woman suffers from Stockholm Syndrome, it doesn't mean she was never really kidnapped.

Maybe they just weren't eager to admit that being marooned for the last ten years of their lives had been orchestrated by someone they lived with and trusted implicitly.