How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

[MacLeod]

In English law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a "high degree of probability" that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person

This is a nonsensical law that doesn't work in a vacuum. One has to carefully define the limitations on what sort of death or serious injury will be accepted as criminal, out of the infinitely large pool of ways to die or get injured as the consequence of an arbitrary choice X.

If you give birth to a child, you are according to this law clearly guilty of murdering her, as you have deliberately and willingly created the circumstances where she will eventually and inevitably die. Unless you are an utter nutcase who really believes that death does not exist, that is.

Speaking of nutcases, there is no law against observing a nonsensical and deadly diet or taking fake medication for an ailment. People can die in silly ways if they want to. And the point here is, the followers of Alixus wanted to die in silly ways.

She commited the act of sabotage of the colony ship, setting up the dunonetic field which inhibited technology both of which she knew carried a high degree of probablilty that such acts would lead to the deaths of some of the colonists. As such those deaths are murder.

None of them are - they are the inevitable consequence of living.

We have never ever heard of a Federation law that would require a person to take medication when ill. Or to observe a healthy diet. Or to spend all his life indoors clad in safety padding. The Federation is a-okay with people committing suicide through colonization, and apparently even encourages the practice somewhat.

Timo Saloniemi

You are totally missing the point. It's about increasing that chance before it would normally occur.

If you put up a building and decide to cut corners and use substandard materials which aren't up to code. You have increased the risk of death or serious injury occuring should an event like a fire occur.


The colonist DIDN'T choose to seetle on a planmet without access to 24th Century technology. That decision was forced upon them. As there was a deliberate act on the part of Alixus to do so, that's what changes it. The vast majority of the colonist WEREN'T followers of Alixus. Just because she was the de facto colony leader doesn't mean they were followers.

If she had collected togther a group of people who wanted to live without technology and accepted those risks it would be a diiferent story. She forced her own viewpoint onto others, through acts of sabotage, helped create the duonetic field. She could easily have deactivated it any time, and perahps saved some lives because without it the medical gear they took would work. They could have sent out a distress call which starfleet could respond to.

It was no accident that the colony ship crash landed there, Alixus took conscience and dilberate decions to ensure that it did. It is because of those actions that it becomes murder rather manslaughter.

 

[Timo]

Both murder and manslaughter are absurd charges for something Alixus was in no way involved in.

Sure, she might be charged with neglect. But neglect is an absurd charge as well, unless you define your standards. You personally are currently guilty of mass murder for failing to stop the fighting in Syria, for example, and should therefore face the music (punch in the face or brainwashing, UFP style, or a poison injection or life spent in a closet, current Earth style) - unless the law is based on reasonable standards.

Accusing Alixus of not having a surgery room available is absurd chiefly because surgery rooms are not generally available. Thus, people die, even though this could be prevented by the unreasonable step of telling them never to go far from a surgery room.

The Federation is known to have obligated people to die premature deaths. It is not known to obligate people to live "full" lives - quite to the contrary, suicide is a respected choice, and coordinated mass suicide an honorable way out of a bad jam. Holding Alixus to higher than average standards is a ridiculously hollow way to accuse her of murder.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

So if you sabotage a plane and it crashes and it causes deaths you are not guilty of murder?

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Put it simply: people would not have died in droves, had that crazy bitch not lied to them about their being stuck on that godawful rock in the middle of nowhere. That's akin to your watching someone have an allergic reaction and die after claiming not to have either the medicine they need, or a mobile, when in fact you do...which then directly results in their death. That is a crime around here and punishable by jailtime.

 

[R. Star]

Your example about Syria is stretching at best. Can you honestly defend that as a rational rebuttal? I suspect unless someone here is an official in one of the involved powers in that conflict, it's beyond our control. About all I can do about it is vote for who I think will deal with it better in a couple weeks.

Alixius was in control. She had the ability to turn off that field and call for help. She never did. In fact she deliberately sabotaged Sisko's attempts to call for help in the case of the single person we see die.

If we were all stranded on a desert island and I had a cell phone and hid it, and you died of a common cold that could have been treated easily, should I not be held responsible? What Alixius did was even worse being she deliberately stranded her people there. Her son tried to destroy the runabout so he had the ability to get aboard it. It didn't occur to him to grab a medkit while he was there? Sisko said a hypospray would have cured that woman. That's rather deliberate too.

So yes, she can be held responsible for everyone there who died of a curable malady over there. She deliberately took actions to strand them there, refused to take action within her ability to help the people who got sick and deliberately sabotaged other people's attempts to help. So yeah, she's responsible and should be held criminally liable.

 

[Timo]

So if you sabotage a plane and it crashes and it causes deaths you are not guilty of murder?

Nobody died in the crash as far as we know.

Any later deaths were simply... Deaths. People die. Get over it.

I suspect unless someone here is an official in one of the involved powers in that conflict, it's beyond our control.

The preventing of perfectly ordinary colonial deaths would be beyond the control of the colonists, too.

And the thing is, there is zero obligation for them to have the control. They are allowed to be unable to call an ambulance and save lives. Everybody is - there are no "mandatory mobile phone laws" in existence anywhere.

I could, say, save a child in Botswana by sending her money for a vaccination or a water pump. I am not obligated to, and I have better uses for my money. The child is not obligated to have clean water, and she is not obligated to survive beyond the age of three. In comparison, bitching about the lack of luxuries such as modern medical facilities or whatnot is inane.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pavonis]

Do we even know how many people died over the years they were on the planet? The episode depicted only one death, as I recall. One death. Not dozens, or hundreds, or thousands. There weren't that many settlers to start with, seeing as their ship was maybe twice the size of a runabout.

Alixus isn't responsible for mass slaughter of her followers. And the most she could be charged with would be for the deaths that were preventable. We don't know that the death that occurred due to the insect bite would have been prevented by even by Trek medicine.

 

[lurok]

Alixus: We've had some bitter winters and we've lost some dear friends

Doesn't specify how many or exactly how they died. Assume malnutrition? Hypothermia? Could be common cold for all we know.

 

[Pavonis]

So, what, at least two people ("friends") died before Sisko and O'Brien stumbled over the colony. That could've been the first winter, too, if they didn't know what to expect. It's not as though winter is unsurvivable without Treknology. How primitive did Alixus want to take the colony? No replicators, sure, but no thermal underwear? What level of technology was she aiming for, and had she achieved it yet? Or was she still shedding the colonists of their "bad" habits?

 

[MacLeod]

So if you sabotage a plane and it crashes and it causes deaths you are not guilty of murder?

Nobody died in the crash as far as we know.

Any later deaths were simply... Deaths. People die. Get over it.

I suspect unless someone here is an official in one of the involved powers in that conflict, it's beyond our control.

The preventing of perfectly ordinary colonial deaths would be beyond the control of the colonists, too.

And the thing is, there is zero obligation for them to have the control. They are allowed to be unable to call an ambulance and save lives. Everybody is - there are no "mandatory mobile phone laws" in existence anywhere.

I could, say, save a child in Botswana by sending her money for a vaccination or a water pump. I am not obligated to, and I have better uses for my money. The child is not obligated to have clean water, and she is not obligated to survive beyond the age of three. In comparison, bitching about the lack of luxuries such as modern medical facilities or whatnot is inane.

Timo Saloniemi

Yes people die, but if as a result of her actions someone died sooner than they would normally, it's a crime.

As for your example, if she had access to water and vaccinations and you denied her access to them then that's a crime. The colonisits would have had access to medical technology, subspace radios without the duonetic field that Alixus had set up to deprive them of such things.

So if you survive the plane crash and the person who sabotaged the plane was onboard and also survived and deprived the survivors of the means of calling for help and others died as a result, then it's not murder?

So my case is:

She sabotaged the ship or conspired so it went off course
She set up the duonetic field
She failed to turn off the duonetic field
Deaths occured because of a result of her deliberate actions.

In most countries because she acted deliberatly and with callous disregard for the consequences of her actions she is guilty. She knew full well that some would die because of her actions.

If you take actions in the full knowledge that someone will die or you have greatly increased the likelyhood of a death occuring then it's murder.

 

[Pavonis]

Yes people die, but if as a result of her actions someone died sooner than they would normally, it's a crime.

How could it be determined that they died "sooner" than they would have otherwise? You'd have to explore alternative timelines to see what other fates may have befallen the colonists to demonstrate that Alixus's little cult-colony was more dangerous than any other life her victims could have lead. In other timelines, those colonists may have died if they hadn't followed Alixus!

So my case is:

She sabotaged the ship or conspired so it went off course
She set up the duonetic field
She failed to turn off the duonetic field
Deaths occured because of a result of her deliberate actions.

In most countries because she acted deliberatly and with callous disregard for the consequences of her actions she is guilty. She knew full well that some would die because of her actions.

If you take actions in the full knowledge that someone will die or you have greatly increased the likelyhood of a death occuring then it's murder.

Alixus couldn't possibly have had "full knowledge" that her actions would lead to deaths. In the Trek universe, it's completely possible to settle on a planet that ends up being a fountain of youth (see the Ba'ku), or possesses some other kind of life-sustaining phenomenon.

 

[R. Star]

If someone gets sick and you deny them medical treatment, and they die, you're responsible... it's not a hard concept. Alixius didn't get them sick but she willfully and deliberately denied them the means to get or call for help to get treatment.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes people die, but if as a result of her actions someone died sooner than they would normally, it's a crime.

How could it be determined that they died "sooner" than they would have otherwise? You'd have to explore alternative timelines to see what other fates may have befallen the colonists to demonstrate that Alixus's little cult-colony was more dangerous than any other life her victims could have lead. In other timelines, those colonists may have died if they hadn't followed Alixus!

So my case is:

She sabotaged the ship or conspired so it went off course
She set up the duonetic field
She failed to turn off the duonetic field
Deaths occured because of a result of her deliberate actions.

In most countries because she acted deliberatly and with callous disregard for the consequences of her actions she is guilty. She knew full well that some would die because of her actions.

If you take actions in the full knowledge that someone will die or you have greatly increased the likelyhood of a death occuring then it's murder.

Alixus couldn't possibly have had "full knowledge" that her actions would lead to deaths. In the Trek universe, it's completely possible to settle on a planet that ends up being a fountain of youth (see the Ba'ku), or possesses some other kind of life-sustaining phenomenon.

Perhaps, which is where the later part comes in, if your deliberate actions increase the likelyhood of a death occuring.

 

[Pavonis]

Only in the time when Sisko and O'Brien were there, though. Before they came, the entire colony was devoid of any modern medical treatments for illnesses or injuries. I can only see that one death being a result of Alixus' decisions and actions.

 

[MacLeod]

If someone gets sick and you deny them medical treatment, and they die, you're responsible... it's not a hard concept. Alixius didn't get them sick but she willfully and deliberately denied them the means to get or call for help to get treatment.

Agreed, Alixus crime(s) where ongoing and as result she is responsible for each and every death that occured.

I don't think I've seen a convinving argument yet as to why she isn't guilty of causing those deaths. I'm no legal expert but last I checked if you commit a crime and people die as a result of that crime you are guilty of causing those deaths.

 

[Pavonis]

But you're assuming that something she did was a crime first, then charging her with murder for the subsequent deaths. But what was her original crime?

 

[sonak]

But you're assuming that something she did was a crime first, then charging her with murder for the subsequent deaths. But what was her original crime?

kidnapping/false imprisonment.



if you take a group of people, and illegally and through deception hold them against their will, that's a crime.

none of those colonists intended to be marooned, and it wasn't an accident that they were.


pretty open and shut, really.

 

[Pavonis]

But what was illegal about the situation with respect to Federation law? Were they even subject to Federation law? Just because they're human isn't reason enough to assume that, though I suppose the situation with the Maquis suggested that the Federation's policy was "if your species is a member, you're a citizen, despite your own claims". So maybe Alixus and her cult were subject to Federation law...but then what would they charge her with? The colonists weren't kidnapped, and Sisko and O'Brien entered of their own free will.

I contend that all the colonists intended to be marooned, therefore they can't be considered to be kidnap victims. Whether their ship landed where they thought they would is not relevant. Lots of Federation colonies probably ended up somewhere other than their original destination (e.g., the colonists aboard the SS Artemis ended up on Tau Cygna V instead of their goal of Septimis Minor), or in a setting they didn't original intend (the colonists from the Mariposa that landed on Mariposa had to resort to cloning to survive despite not originally intending to do so).

Alixus' people intended to set up a colony, and they did. Alixus didn't let them play with their favorite Treknology, but is that illegal? The worst thing she did was to attempt to destroy Federation property (setting the runabout on a course to destroy itself, though she failed). Did she "let" that insect bit victim die, or would she have died anyway? Sisko is no medical expert; he couldn't be certain a simple hypospray would be sufficient treatment. That girl may have died regardless.

 

[MacLeod]

But you're assuming that something she did was a crime first, then charging her with murder for the subsequent deaths. But what was her original crime?

kidnapping/false imprisonment.



if you take a group of people, and illegally and through deception hold them against their will, that's a crime.

none of those colonists intended to be marooned, and it wasn't an accident that they were.


pretty open and shut, really.

Agreed, the colony ship also was off course so it was either sabotaged or deliberatly piloted off course.

But what was illegal about the situation with respect to Federation law? Were they even subject to Federation law? Just because they're human isn't reason enough to assume that, though I suppose the situation with the Maquis suggested that the Federation's policy was "if your species is a member, you're a citizen, despite your own claims". So maybe Alixus and her cult were subject to Federation law...but then what would they charge her with? The colonists weren't kidnapped, and Sisko and O'Brien entered of their own free will.

I contend that all the colonists intended to be marooned, therefore they can't be considered to be kidnap victims. Whether their ship landed where they thought they would is not relevant. Lots of Federation colonies probably ended up somewhere other than their original destination (e.g., the colonists aboard the SS Artemis ended up on Tau Cygna V instead of their goal of Septimis Minor), or in a setting they didn't original intend (the colonists from the Mariposa that landed on Mariposa had to resort to cloning to survive despite not originally intending to do so).

Alixus' people intended to set up a colony, and they did. Alixus didn't let them play with their favorite Treknology, but is that illegal? The worst thing she did was to attempt to destroy Federation property (setting the runabout on a course to destroy itself, though she failed). Did she "let" that insect bit victim die, or would she have died anyway? Sisko is no medical expert; he couldn't be certain a simple hypospray would be sufficient treatment. That girl may have died regardless.

The planet they where forced to settle on wasn't the original colony site. So no not all of the colonist intended to be marooned.

As for Alixus cult as you put it, most of the colonists didn't sign up for a life without technology. That's what Alixus wanted.

As for the girl with the insect bite, if the colonist hadn't been forced onto that world, she wouldn't have been bitten by that particular insect.

 

[Pavonis]

Well, whatever her crimes, we know what the sentence will be. She'll be sentenced to 6 months of rehabilitative therapy, maybe in conjunction with "hard" labor in the New Zealand penal colony. Then she'll probably be returned to society as a productive member again. Maybe she'll even want to go back to her colony near the wormhole and help introduce the latest technological innovations to her former followers.