TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by mickemoose, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. mickemoose

    mickemoose Ensign Red Shirt

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    In "The Making of Star Trek," Stephen Whitfield refers to the TOS Enterprise having a large recreation area featuring "outdoor" simulation. On pages 187 - 188 he writes, "Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past Star Trek episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

    He goes on to include Gene Roddenberry's description of this rec area which Roddenberry explains, "Therefore, we intend to build a simulated "outdoor" recreation area which gives a realistic feeling of sky, breezes, plants, fountains, and so forth."

    The only area on the TOS ship that bears any similarity to an "outdoor" setting is the botany lab which has plants. Indeed, the botany lab is shown in "And The Children Shall Lead" and "Is There in Truth No Beauty," both third season episodes, but it is also previously shown in "The Man Trap," a first season episode.

    Would the botany lab set also be considered this "outdoor" setting Roddenberry described? If not, it would seem rather odd that crew members would be allowed to bring their food in at any time and socialize ("The Man Trap"), or kids would be allowed to enter and run around ("And The Children Shall Lead") in a scientific lab where botanical research is being conducted.
     
  2. mickemoose

    mickemoose Ensign Red Shirt

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    Botany lab scene from the "The Man Trap."


    Link
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2012
  3. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    This is one of those items which belies the supposed infallibility of TMoST. The book came out between seasons 2 and 3. The "recreation area" is, I am given to understand, the first inclination to what would be become the holodeck on TNG. It also made an appearance on TAS ("Practical Joker," IIRC). The line about the set having already been built and the promise that it would be seen in season 3 is patently false. The scene in the season 1 episode "The Man Trap" is a redress of sickbay, and the season 3 botany lab was not a standing set, so the line of having built the set is, sadly, nonsense.

    --Alex
     
  4. Unicron

    Unicron Boss Monster Mod Moderator

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    I changed the image to a link. In the future, please don't post images directly from other websites as that steals their bandwidth. If you want to post screencaps or other images, use a free image host like PhotoBucket or ImageShack. ;)
     
  5. mickemoose

    mickemoose Ensign Red Shirt

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    Gotcha! :techman:
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The original question seems to be pretty much covered: TMoST ain't right.

    In in-universe terms, the idea of "botany lab" being part of an accessible recreation area makes plenty of sense. Naturally, there would have to be quarantine areas for the nastier sorts of flora encountered in the TOS adventures, but consistency is well served by assuming that everything from "Man Trap" to "ITITNB" involves the same overall facility, for the reasons already given by mickemoose.

    However, I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a starship moving a bunch of trees around. They don't uproot entire tribes and put them in onboard concentration camps in order to study languages; why haul timber for study purposes? And surely "recreation" could be arranged by other, more practicable means as well. In that sense, it would be nice to think of the "Man Trap" lab as a compact science-dedicated facility, and the seeming arboretum as a simulation that actually takes up very little room and can be stricken down so that the same room is available for other purposes at other times.

    Remember those four mysterious glowing squares on the dorsal surface of the saucer rim? Or, even more interestingly, the three glowing squares, with one asymmetrically remaining dark? These could be stargazing rooms available for a variety of purposes (as suggested by the variety in the lighting status), and our heroes could have set up a park-lookalike in one for "season three" of their long and tedious mission...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    No, it is not. TMoST refers to "4 major facilities" on the Rec deck:
    1. large recreation area
    2. main food preparation area
    3. ship's laundry
    4. exotic entertainment center (presumed to be holodeck)

    Original quote: "Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

    In Season Three we saw the Herbarium as part of the recreation area (soundstage 8) for the first time, so the promise was kept.

    I assume that the "Life Sciences Botanical Section" from "The Man Trap", where Sulu is enjoying his meal, connects somehow to the Herbarium.

    Bob
     
  8. Unicron

    Unicron Boss Monster Mod Moderator

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    "Herbarium" sounds like a funny name for some reason. :lol:
     
  9. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Also, the herbarium set was a standing set and we no doubt would have seen more of it if had there been a fourth season. It was going to be featured in another third season episode as well -the title of which escapes me at the moment- but was cut from the final broadcast.

    Here's an MJ sketch of the set (center column, second from the last image)...
    [COLOR=#800080]http://www.trekcore.com/specials/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=4[/COLOR]

    And here’s a sketch for another set (that was apparently never built) that adjoins it (bottom three images)... [COLOR=#800080]http://www.trekcore.com/specials/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=7[/COLOR]

    That last table thingy was apparently built, as it (and another?) is apparently seen in ITITNB.

    There is also a floor plan sketch in The Art of Star Trek that shows how these two sets were supposed to fit together –rather like FJ had his deck 18 rec facilities in his BOGP.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  10. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry, but no. If you read GR's comments that follow that he says, "THEREFORE WE INTEND TO BUILD A SIMULATED "OUTDOOR" RECREATION AREA WHICH GIVES A REALISTIC FEELING OF SKY, BREEZES, PLANTS, FOUNTAINS, AND SO FORTH." (Please note, the use of the capslock is straight from the book, I'm not just trying to be a dick... but the bold letters are mine, for emphasis.)

    The "Herbarium" does not simulate being outdoors in any way. This promise fell short. I will concede that when writing this, such a plan may have been in the works and was assumed to have been finished by the time book was published, and even perhaps that the Herbarium was a compromised, lesser version of what Gene wanted (and eventually got in TAS and TNG) but I do not accept that this was exactly what Steve and Gene were describing in the book.

    But I do agree with you in the assumption that the Life Sciences Section and the Herbarium are adjacent to each other and connect.

    It wasn't a standing set. Standing sets are those which remain up all the time because they are needed more or less for every episode. The Bridge, Sickbay, Corridor, Crew Cabin, Briefing Room and Transporter Room were the standing sets. Everything else would be assembled for the scene and struck when they were done with it due to the limits of room on the stage. New parts of the ship were, wherever possible, redressed other sets. The briefing room especially gets a lot of mileage. IIRC, Engineering wasn't a standing set until year 2; before that it was assembled as needed out of wild components, which is why there is so much variation of the season 1 engine room. Other parts of the ship were also assembled as needed, including the Auxiliary Control Room and the Emergency Manual Monitor Room just to name a couple. the Herbarium would have been assembled as needed in just this manner, it was much too big and used much too infrequently to have been a standing set. It would be put together on a "set of the week" basis like, say, the Romulan Bridge in "Balance of Terror," or the audience chamber for Landru in "Return of the Archons" or any other one-off set for a given episode. Now, granted, these wild components could be stored to be used/redressed for later episodes, so it's not so special that the same space appeared in two episodes, especially since "And the Children Shall Lead" and "Is There In Truth No Beauty" were produced almost consecutively (ATCSL was in post and ITITNB was in pre-production as "Spock's Brain" was being shot between them) so it's not unreasonable to assume this was the only time the set was up.


    --Alex
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  11. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Well, to simulate outdoors was one (of many) intentions and actually I'm glad we got the Herbarium as otherwise they probably would have gone on location, shoot outdoors and then pretend it's aboard the ship which nobody would have seriously believed.
    But despite all the budget restrictions they could have made more efforts to feature some exterior windows on the Enterprise. ;)
     
  12. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The two quotes from the TMoST cited above are not mutually exclusive.

    Of the four facilities listed, the first one; "large recreation area" -is the one referred to by this quote...

    "Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

    This is the set we've been calling the herbarium, so it was built, and it was seen in the third season, so TMoST is correct.

    The fourth one; "exotic entertainment center" -is the one referred to by this quote...

    "Therefore we intend to build a simulated "outdoor" recreation area which gives a realistic feeling of sky, breezes, plants, fountains, and so fourth."

    This set was obviously never built, and we therefore never saw it, but then the TMoST doesn't claim otherwise, only that they intend to build it, so again TMoST is correct.

    As for whether the Herbarium was a standing set, I still say it was. I worked in the theater business building sets, so I’m very well aware of how sets are used and stored; and being an original TOS fan since the Sixties, I’ve certainly been around long enough to know how the Trek production handled their set requirements. So unless I see an original memo or an interview that says otherwise, I’ll remain unconvinced that it was anything other than a permanent addition to the other standing sets, as was the case with the auxiliary control room and emergency manual monitor.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  13. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    I'm not so sure.

    Seems to me that the line "Gene describes it this way" indicates that the "set that has now been built and will be seen in the third season" is the outdoor simulation center, the same as the "rather exotic entertainment center," the forth area mentioned as a deck 8 facility.

    But see for yourself. For those of you who do not own a copy of The Making of Star Trek, or, more likely, simply don't have it handy, I will, as a public service, reproduce a short segment of it here...

    Then they go on to talk about the food prep area. But it seems clear to me that they're talking about something that was never quite realized in actual fact. The Herbarium (so labeled in Matt Jefferies drawings of it) is probably the "next best thing" to what Gene was looking for. (Who, let's not forget, took a major back seat during the third season.)

    ...:rolleyes:

    How can I argue with airtight logic like that?

    I have on my computer three different versions of the plans of the studio which demonstrate that the stage was reset almost every episode. Something that wasn't needed wasn't staying up, as there was very limited real estate. If you want to conclude that an enormous set that was only seen in two scenes in the entire run of the series was taking up room throughout the entire third season... you're welcome to it. But that's clearly crap.

    You guys have fun, I'm out.

    --Alex

    PS, Before I leave, a case in point.

    This may be helpful, a quote from Star Trek Sketchbook: The Original Series by Herbert F. Solow and Yvonne Fern Sollow. It's the lead-in text to introduce a whole series of pictures of the cardboard miniature sets MJ built and happened to still have laying around when they interviewed him for the book.

    This story focuses on the first few episodes, but never was there enough stage to keep everything up all the time. Stuff was broken and stored and moved around all the time to accommodate the day's needs.

    --AM
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  14. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Also, for those who love TMoST but like to poop on FJ, here's his take on Deck 8. Although he wasn't personally a Star Trek fan, he did work very closely with his daughter and her Trek fan club buddies while putting this stuff together. This drawing suggests that at least that particular group of fans in the early 70's didn't equate the herbarium set with the lines we are debating from TMoSt. (Though, to be fair, I don't believe there is any facility in the FJ blueprints which reflect the Herbarium set. This is probably one of those places he thought it'd make more sense to handle a different way. But all such decisions to change things were done with the blessing of his daughter and her fan group and were signed off on by Gene "The Man" Roddenberry himself.)

    [​IMG]

    --Alex
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  15. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, if you're still lurking about Albertese, I'll extend an olive branch, and meet you half way. I never said that the permanent standing sets did not have "wild" sections and were always kept ready to film, or that sections could be temporarily stored until needed. Nor am I talking about the "redress of the week" or the one time scratch built "set of the week", there is a difference.

    I too am familiar with those three stage plans you mentioned, plus a few others, and they don’t really help resolve the matter. One thing to keep in mind is, we don’t know when Jefferies made his mini set and if or when he may have modified it before the series folded, so it’s hard to say what if any relevance it has regarding the status of the EMM and the ACR sets.

    Granted, there's a little bit of a technical difference between "permanent set" and "standing set" which can lead to confusion, but as far as I've been able to determine, the ACR and the EMM were "permanent sets" even though sections may have been moved around or temporarily stowed out of the way -but no less so than sections of the bridge or any other "standing set", so we can't use the argument that wild sections and storability equal "temporary set".

    Now, I'll concede that the Herbarium may have been a set that was completely "struck" when not in use, but I'm not convinced it was; so no hard feelings.

    As far as a facility in FJ's plans that is comparable to the Herbarium set, as I mentioned above if we look at FJ's deck 18 plans, we will see his version of that set.
     
  16. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    We were to see the ship's arboretum in "And the Children Shall Lead" and "Elaan of Troyus." If memory serves, the scenes were cut, though stills culled from frames survive. We at least heard about it in "The Man Trap" and finally saw it in "Is There in Truth No Beauty."
     
  17. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks TIN_MAN. I apologize for coming down with such hostility. After all, it's only a tv show. We had a death in the family a couple weeks ago and I think I was kinda taking it out on you guys in this thread, which is hardly appropriate.

    Anyhow, I checked out the FJ deck 18 drawings and I see what you mean. I'm sure that area is his version of the Herbarium area in ATCSL and ITITNB.

    I don't really hold to the FJ plans, and my biggest problem with them is probably this very area aft of the sensor/deflector dish. Just seems like there should be some sort of machinery back there for the dish instead of the random unrelated business he put in there...

    --Alex
     
  18. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No problem Alex, sorry for your loss.
     
  19. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer In Memoriam

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    Ralph Senensky, director of "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" had this to say in his blog:

    "There were no locations required to film this episode. In fact the entire show would be filmed in the Enterprise set on Stage 9 except for one four page scene in a herbarium set on swing stage 8."

    http://ralph-senensky.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-there-in-truth-no-beauty-july-1968.html
     
  20. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks, but I'm not sure that helps much? We already knew the set was on stage 8, but other than this being the place where their “planet surface of the week” sets were built, there’s still nothing to preclude the possibility that the recreation area was not a permanent “standing” set, tucked away in a corner of that soundstage somewhere?

    Now, the adjoining “herbarium” set which we never saw, because it was never built, was most probably going to be a temporary affair of flats and door frames assembled at a moments notice, but then was never really needed, so…?

    On the other hand, I can see how the recreation area set could have been cleverly built to be quickly assembled and then “struck” and stored away until next time? Perhaps they just left it up unless or until they really needed the space, at this point who knows?:shrug: