Actually I have 2 questions about Star Trek. First, if Spock was on a planet close enough to see Vulcan destroyed, wouldn't the planet that he was on be sucked in to the same black hole thing there? Secondly, when Kirk and Sulu landed on the drill to disable it, none of them, even the Romulans have on any helmets or anything. How could they breathe in that high of an altitude or even stand without being blown away by a jet stream current or something?
Trek 09 question..
- Thread starter Pawleygirl
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1. I never really considered the black holes in the movie "real" black holes because real black holes are a lot stronger than that. So maybe they were small, mini black holes only strong enough to last just a bit and their range of gravity was only enough to grab what was close.
2. It depends on how high up they were, in the attack on San Fransisco, you could see buildings and the bridge, so it couldn't been that high up.
2. It depends on how high up they were, in the attack on San Fransisco, you could see buildings and the bridge, so it couldn't been that high up.
On question 1: even though the film made it look like Spock was close enough to see Vulcan being destroyed, he really couldn't have been as close as depicted. I know this doesn't really make sense, but Vulcan has no moon or sister planet called Delta Vega. So that part of Spock's recollection is in some way visually impressionistic.
Sure it does. It said so in the film.
The images were via a mind meld, so it would have to be based on Spock's impressions. Nothing was from Spock's POV visually.
And it would highlight even more starkly the "strange" decision to beam him down anywhere given Spock would get a much better view from the Narada's bridge, where Nero (as per traditional villain behaviour) could "enjoy" his suffering, assuming he displayed any. Ah, but however could nuKirk and nuScotty meet him there? Oh well, beam away ...
There were two large bodies on Vulcan's horizons in TAS: "Yesteryear" and the Vulcan sky was jam packed with planets and moons in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I have no problem with Delta Vega being in eyeshot of Vulcan in STXI, whether it's one of those or another world in the Vulcan system, all of which probably have very unlikely orbits!
I've never really bought into the whole "black hole" thing. A black hole created from Vulcan would have the same mass as Vulcan. Just compressed down into a very very tiny space. A black hole created from the Nerada should have the same mass as the Nerada. I guess red matter is just pretty damn special.
I hate to say it, but if you think of it more as an action movie (where factual information and the best likelihoods aren't much of a concern) then it's easier to dismiss any qualms or questions you might have. I think in the film, we're led to believe that Nero left Spock Prime there to see the destruction of his planet and that's all we're supposed to focus on. ST09 is basically an action movie with some sci-fi elements.
Which really is most Trek movies in general. I mean hell, TWOK had a device that created a livable planet from a rock and First Contact was Star Trek with zombies.
STXI sort of preempts part of the critique by making it a plot point that unlikely coincidences are happening. That is, "fate" is conspiring to bring Kirk and his crew together in this alternate timeline, in order to make it more like the "prime" timeline.
Supposedly, "fate" always was part of this Trek timeline business, as almost all the time travel stories hinge on major changes in the past taking place, and then being only partially undone, but the present that evolves from this only "partially repaired" past is still identical to the one we've learned to know and love. Time seems to repair itself somehow...
As for the specific story points of this thread, getting sucked into Vulcan should not have been a problem with "real" black holes. But it was a problem with red matter holes according to our heroes - the Enterprise herself was said to be in such danger if she failed to leave Vulcan orbit in time. And later we saw red matter almost suck the starship in when only the insignificant mass of the Narada was available for the black hole. So the original question is quite relevant.
And yes, I go with the crowd that says Spock was nowhere near Vulcan. After all, he was sharing a planet with Scotty who showed no signs of being anywhere near Vulcan! Plus, it was a planet with almost unbroken cloud cover. Nero could not have counted on Spock seeing anything in the sky, not with his eyes. But Nero could probably have counted on Spock witnessing the destruction of Vulcan even lightyears away: Vulcans are established as having that ability (TOS "Immunity Syndrome"), and perhaps Romulans have it as well.
As for the second point, the altitude was never made explicit or easy to estimate - but we saw it took exactly 68 seconds for Sulu to fall from the platform over Vulcan to the very surface, in a constant-dialogue, real-speed scene. Sulu (and later the Sulu-Kirk combination) would be falling at about human terminal velocity, which (assuming air resistance roughly similar to Earth atmosphere at about sea level) would give 3.6 kilometers or 2.3 miles of fall (sufficiently supporting the assumption).
So, our heroes would be breathing mountain air, with possible health consequences, but wouldn't be at Everest heights yet; the struggle could take place without extra oxygen or without our heroes or villains fainting.
And clearly it wasn't too windy there near the drill. We don't know enough about Vulcan to judge where its jetstreams might be found, but 3-4 kilometers probably isn't it yet.
Timo Saloniemi
Supposedly, "fate" always was part of this Trek timeline business, as almost all the time travel stories hinge on major changes in the past taking place, and then being only partially undone, but the present that evolves from this only "partially repaired" past is still identical to the one we've learned to know and love. Time seems to repair itself somehow...
As for the specific story points of this thread, getting sucked into Vulcan should not have been a problem with "real" black holes. But it was a problem with red matter holes according to our heroes - the Enterprise herself was said to be in such danger if she failed to leave Vulcan orbit in time. And later we saw red matter almost suck the starship in when only the insignificant mass of the Narada was available for the black hole. So the original question is quite relevant.
And yes, I go with the crowd that says Spock was nowhere near Vulcan. After all, he was sharing a planet with Scotty who showed no signs of being anywhere near Vulcan! Plus, it was a planet with almost unbroken cloud cover. Nero could not have counted on Spock seeing anything in the sky, not with his eyes. But Nero could probably have counted on Spock witnessing the destruction of Vulcan even lightyears away: Vulcans are established as having that ability (TOS "Immunity Syndrome"), and perhaps Romulans have it as well.
As for the second point, the altitude was never made explicit or easy to estimate - but we saw it took exactly 68 seconds for Sulu to fall from the platform over Vulcan to the very surface, in a constant-dialogue, real-speed scene. Sulu (and later the Sulu-Kirk combination) would be falling at about human terminal velocity, which (assuming air resistance roughly similar to Earth atmosphere at about sea level) would give 3.6 kilometers or 2.3 miles of fall (sufficiently supporting the assumption).
So, our heroes would be breathing mountain air, with possible health consequences, but wouldn't be at Everest heights yet; the struggle could take place without extra oxygen or without our heroes or villains fainting.
And clearly it wasn't too windy there near the drill. We don't know enough about Vulcan to judge where its jetstreams might be found, but 3-4 kilometers probably isn't it yet.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think we can use past time travel experiences to try to predict what's gonna happen, or not, in this universe.
It's a different Universe, not an altered Original timeline. If it were an altered Original Timeline then 'timeline healing itself' theorem would make sense but because it's not the same Universe/timeline, why bother?
We all agree the Mirror Universe was not an altered Orignal Timeline, correct? Events in that Universe differ vastly from the Prime Timeline and we all agree those differences are normal for that Universe, no healing required so why don't we just see this NuUniverse the same way? It is one of thousands (or more) different Universes as shown in TNG: Parallels.
Frankly, IMO, any attempt to mold this universe into a clone of the original misses the point of the reboot.
It's a different Universe, not an altered Original timeline. If it were an altered Original Timeline then 'timeline healing itself' theorem would make sense but because it's not the same Universe/timeline, why bother?
We all agree the Mirror Universe was not an altered Orignal Timeline, correct? Events in that Universe differ vastly from the Prime Timeline and we all agree those differences are normal for that Universe, no healing required so why don't we just see this NuUniverse the same way? It is one of thousands (or more) different Universes as shown in TNG: Parallels.
Frankly, IMO, any attempt to mold this universe into a clone of the original misses the point of the reboot.
Regarding Q1
Would a red matter black hole differ from a naturally occurring one,
if so would the red matter forming it be susceptible to unlimited spacial expansion to allow it to collapse in on itself under it's own gravity? Thus sparing the planets/moons in the vicinity of Vulcan?
Just wondering?
Would a red matter black hole differ from a naturally occurring one,
if so would the red matter forming it be susceptible to unlimited spacial expansion to allow it to collapse in on itself under it's own gravity? Thus sparing the planets/moons in the vicinity of Vulcan?
Just wondering?
alternate universe, alternate reality and alternate timeline are all interchangable terms for the same thing.
The movie makes no mention of hopping universes, only time travel. Ditto the official tie-ins (particularly Watching the Clock, which goes into detail about how Trek's different types of time travel work)
That TPTB allowed at least two "branch point" mirror universe stories in the novels and comics, and William Shatner nearly starred in an Enterprise episode about the origins of the mirror universe, I'd say that's less than conclusive!
The phrase "alternate reality" which Uhura uses to describe STXI's timeline was first used by Mirror T'Pol in "In a Mirror, Darkly" to decribe Trek's Prime timeline.
But it's not normal, that's the whole point. The film goes to great pains to point out that Nero's actions have altered history from what it should have been (TOS)
That is true to an extent, but I'd say it's more an excuse for the writers to pick and choose whatever bits they liked and ditch what they didn't.
IIRC, the only time we actually saw the imploding Vulcan being visible from Delta Vega was when Spock was mind melding with Kirk. There's some dramatic license at work there, then. Not meant to be taken literally.
"He beamed me here so that I could observe his vengeance."
Delta Vega had to be visible to the naked eye.
Delta Vega had to be visible to the naked eye.
How long would it take for a black hole with the mass of Vulcan to destroy the entire Vulcan system ( or would it?) I don't think its like draining a bathtub. It takes a while.Regarding Q1
Would a red matter black hole differ from a naturally occurring one,
if so would the red matter forming it be susceptible to unlimited spacial expansion to allow it to collapse in on itself under it's own gravity? Thus sparing the planets/moons in the vicinity of Vulcan?
Just wondering?
Your conclusion is not supported by your initial statement. The movie wasn't following the actions of anyone on DV when Vulcan was destroyed. For all we know it may have been visible to anyone on DV who looked up at the time.
I would guess that unless something disrupted its orbit, there is a good chance it would evaporate first.
We never heard of the black hole that delivered Nero to the past developing into anything much. Indeed, it seemed to be gone pretty quickly, or else a followup mission by Starfleet would have provided more insight into the phenomenon than our heroes in 2258 possessed.
Doesn't mean that a black hole fed with a diet of an entire planet would behave the exact same way, though.
Heh. The very quote carefully avoids any reference to eyes or other visual means of observation...
That's highly unlikely, considering we met two people who had shared (that side of!) the planet with Spock at the time, and neither had any clue anything had happened to Vulcan. It wouldn't be something you'd miss if you blinked: Vulcan would be gone forever. And this would be left in its place:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1659.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2039.jpg
Timo Saloniemi
Doesn't mean that a black hole fed with a diet of an entire planet would behave the exact same way, though.
Heh. The very quote carefully avoids any reference to eyes or other visual means of observation...
That's highly unlikely, considering we met two people who had shared (that side of!) the planet with Spock at the time, and neither had any clue anything had happened to Vulcan. It wouldn't be something you'd miss if you blinked: Vulcan would be gone forever. And this would be left in its place:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1659.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2039.jpg
Timo Saloniemi
I've missed eclipses and meteor showers simply because I didn't know they were going on and didn't look up. And considering Keenser and Scotty were indoors, in a junk-filled lab the whole time, I'd say it's extremely plausible they simply missed it.
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