7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[Mr Awe]

Unless you are wrong, in which case New York has blown up. That's the point you're missing. You could be right, however, the Doctor, who is usually pretty good about figuring these things out, thinks you are wrong.

The Doctor could've blown up the universe by saving himself using that logic!

Which brings me back to my other point that the Doctor has a certain sense of what a fixed point is. With his own death, he didn't quite realize it at first, but he figured it out (and he figured out that it did not merely involve using the tesselect, but that it required to fake his own death and maintain a lower profile). Here, he's figured out that the fixed point involves Rory and Amy growing old and dying.

Actually, it might be more helpful to think of this as crossing your own time stream rather than changing a fixed point.

My point is more that the authors can easily decide to retrieve Amy and Rory if they want to. There's a very simple out.

If the argument is simply that the writers can cop out, I'm not disagreeing with you. If the argument is that the more logical result of the episode is that this isn't permanent, that's where the disagreement arises. Certainly, if the writers want to bring them back, they are welcome to use any reason they choose (including this one).

Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider it a cop out. It seems entirely consistent with what happened before. Although, having said that, I did think *that* was a cop out!

Mr Awe

 

[Starkers]

Unfortunately Who as a show falls apart if you think about it too much, I used to think it should have rules and canon, but now I understand what Paul Cornell said all those years ago, it's just impossible.

When did he say that?

There is a point to me asking.

Here you go

2007...has he contradicted himself since then?

Couple of quotes from it.

Not giving a toss about how it all fits together is one of Doctor Who’s oldest, proudest traditions, a strength of the series. (And a No Prize to the person who points out the first ever continuity error in the original series.) It’s allowed infinite change, and never left the show crunched into a corner after all the dramatic options had already been done. Terrible continuity equals infinitely flexible format. It’s indefinability that results in that old ‘indefinable magic’. Much in the same way that there’s no one definition of what a ‘Doctor Who companion’ is that includes all of them, and so a new one can be whatever works.

So this is what those I yelled at above might get some comfort from. Those who say that because the New Adventures are canonical, therefore the TV series shouldn’t contradict them (and those people also are often inclined to abuse the opposition in search of false authority) are ignoring the fact that the TV series now has a licence to contradict itself, and has already used it, big time. (In the original series, it just did that without having any such device. Three different versions of the destruction of Atlantis, two of them irreconcilable. Perhaps simple time travel, rather than a Time War, is all it takes to make history, canonicity and continuity meaningless.)

Highlights mine.

Obviously at the end of the day this is just one guy's opinion, same as each of us have an opinion, and like I say I did rail a little against this the first time I read it many years ago, but its an interesting article to insert into the debate.

 

[The Wormhole]

There's nbo such thing as canon on Doctor Who and in The Hungry Earth it was changed to only Amy standing on the hill since Rory was erased from time.

And since Rory's exisntence was restored, presumably he was standing with Amy on the hill again.

And there's still no frame for the graveyard scenes.

The modern day New York scenes are set in 2012. This is fact, stated in dialogue a couple of times. Rory's grave was seen when the Doctor and Amy left in the TARDIS to begin their attempt to get to 1938. At the end, after Amy and Rory are returned to the graveyard after their jump off the roof, there's a line like "we're back where we started" suggesting this is 2012. More concrete proof, after Amy and Rory are transported by the Angel the Doctor runs to Central Park to get the page he ripped out of the book, meaning that it must still be 2012.

 

[DWF]

There's nbo such thing as canon on Doctor Who and in The Hungry Earth it was changed to only Amy standing on the hill since Rory was erased from time.

And since Rory's exisntence was restored, presumably he was standing with Amy on the hill again.

And there's still no frame for the graveyard scenes.

The modern day New York scenes are set in 2012. This is fact, stated in dialogue a couple of times. Rory's grave was seen when the Doctor and Amy left in the TARDIS to begin their attempt to get to 1938. At the end, after Amy and Rory are returned to the graveyard after their jump off the roof, there's a line like "we're back where we started" suggesting this is 2012. More concrete proof, after Amy and Rory are transported by the Angel the Doctor runs to Central Park to get the page he ripped out of the book, meaning that it must still be 2012.

Fantastic, 2012 I can understand but I don't know the idea that it was set in 2021 came from. And since Rory and Amy died before 2012 their can't be a version of them from 2020 standiing on a hill in 2010.

ETA: I suppose the argument could be made that the Doctor took Amy and Rory from 2010 and put them on the hll to be able to wave to themselves, although that really makes no sense at least to me. But it also makes no sense for the Doctor to take the 2020 versions of Amy and Rory to Central Park in 2012. I guess it's just better not to think about it too much.

OTOH, I don't see a reason why River Song can't be his official companion now, since they are married.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The reason to set it in 2012 is that it was filmed in 2012 (and, due to ongoing construction, would obviously not be 2020). Maybe they were going to see a show or something after that took place in 2012.

 

[Samurai8472]

Brian is not forgotten!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/articles/What-Happened-to-Brian-and-the-Ponds

 

[The Wormhole]

Fantastic, 2012 I can understand but I don't know the idea that it was set in 2021 came from. And since Rory and Amy died before 2012 their can't be a version of them from 2020 standiing on a hill in 2010.

ETA: I suppose the argument could be made that the Doctor took Amy and Rory from 2010 and put them on the hll to be able to wave to themselves, although that really makes no sense at least to me. But it also makes no sense for the Doctor to take the 2020 versions of Amy and Rory to Central Park in 2012. I guess it's just better not to think about it too much.

No one is saying it was set in 2021, just that Amy and Rory were from 2021 and the Doctor took them to 2012, which like you say makes no sense.

And really the whole dating thing makes no sense at all anymore. 2021 is conjecture based on admittedly flimsy evidence, but if you take into account everyhting that has been established in seasons 5 and 6, Amy and Rory can be from no earlier than 2016 in order to accomodate all the time jumping that has been going on.

Really, Doctor Who has never been too consistent with dating modern day stories. The only time any real effort was put into doing so was during the RTD era, and they still screwed things up. Still, I think S7 may be as sloppy as UNIT Dating.

 

[Pindar]

Brian is not forgotten!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/articles/What-Happened-to-Brian-and-the-Ponds

That was pretty good, too bad it was never filmed. It would have been a better wrap up to the episode.

 

[doubleohfive]

Here's the direct link to the video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00zn6ff

Had they included this in the episode, the whole thing might not have sucked balls so hard as it otherwise did.

 

[Stevil2001]

I don't see why it's so weird that the Doctor would take 2021 Amy and Rory to 2012. In "Human Nature" he takes Martha (from 2008) to 2007! Ooh, exotic. At least Rory and Amy have had time to get nostalgic.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't see why it's so weird that the Doctor would take 2021 Amy and Rory to 2012. In "Human Nature" he takes Martha (from 2008) to 2007! Ooh, exotic. At least Rory and Amy have had time to get nostalgic.

To be honest, that bothered me too.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I like it. I wish they had filmed it. Although it overlaps with Amy's scene, so they can't really include both in the episode. But it made a great web extra (and would have made an even better extra if filmed).

 

[Saul]

Quite a touching ending. Would have made the episode for me.

 

[Ood Sigma]

If the framing sequence from Angels in Manhattan is set in 2012, why does the newspaper say the Detroit Lions won the Super Bowl, when they didn't (and the episode was filmed after the Super Bowl). I would say it's more likely that those scenes took place in February 2013 (even if the Lions' performance so far makes it unlikely they'll even sniff the playoffs).

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

If the framing sequence from Angels in Manhattan is set in 2012, why does the newspaper say the Detroit Lions won the Super Bowl, when they didn't (and the episode was filmed after the Super Bowl). I would say it's more likely that those scenes took place in February 2013 (even if the Lions' performance so far makes it unlikely they'll even sniff the playoffs).

I assumed they were trying to firmly establish that Doctor Who is indeed a fantasy show, not just science fiction.

 

[Skellington]

^ Shhh.

 

[1001001]

My son and I have been working our way through last season, and then the current one. Tonight we finally saw The Angels Take Manhattan.

I'm sure everything that can be said already has. I'll just add that both of us were crying (I'm not talking about a single tear welling up, I'm talking about sobbing here!).



When Amy's name showed up on the tombstone, and we realized at once that they were gone, but that they lived long and happy lives together, well...that was a beautiful moment. Just brilliant. We loved it.

Farewell to the Ponds.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

^^ You might want to check this: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=190930

 

[1001001]

^^ You might want to check this: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=190930

You're killing me here!

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

More than 450 posts and no one has said anything about Sting?