Religion & DS9

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Simple: because someone influential on the production side of things is quite religious. So, we get a very preachy, manichean Star Trek show that completely contradicts the humanist vision depicted in TOS&TNG.
You just learn to ignore the horrible religion-heavy episodes ("The Reckoning" had unintentional comical value, though)

The Reckoning is a beautiful episode that teaches us that Force Lightening comes in two different colours.

 

[beamMe]

Jesus and His teachings in particular were even admitted to by those arguably his ENEMIES, such as Josephus the historian.

We have better provenance for the books of the Bible than we do the books of Caesar. No one doubts Caesar's writings are authentic though, because they are secular.

Clear-minded, objective thinking can only conclude that the Bible is an authentic historical record as testified to by it's authors.

Nothing you wrote here has any basis in fact and reality.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Classic Sci Fi Trope; the evil side always has red eyes or glow, the good side is usually represented by blue or whitish energy.

That's why the whole thing got awkward at the end. Trek has always tried to avoid too much religious symbolism, but DS9 jumped right into it.

I always found episodes with the Prophets fascinating, but the last few episodes were too much.

The Pah Wraiths started off as simply enemies of the Prophets, but then morphed into super evil beings that wanted to set the Galaxy on fire or something.

The showdown between the two "chosen ones" was too comic book like for me, I'd rather they did it another way.

 

[Thestral]

The Bajoran's have the tears of the prophets, which are obviously real and obviously have the abilities of giving you visions or making you travel through time. Their "religion" is very much grounded in reality. They KNOW their gods exists, instead of simply believing it.

Glowing space rocks that give you hallucinogenic experiences which happen to fall in line with your cultural expectations? Clearly evidence of non-linear wormhole-dwelling aliens.

I think that's a fine analogy, actually. The writers seemed aware of it, too. For example, in Accession the "orb shadow" sounds very much like an hallucinogen flashback.

However, the references in DS9 to faith generally sound very much like they are intended to be taken as metaphors for Christian faith.

Well, to be fair it's not as though people haven't used mind-altering substances to have a Christian faith-experience before.

Simple: because someone influential on the production side of things is quite religious. So, we get a very preachy, manichean Star Trek show that completely contradicts the humanist vision depicted in TOS&TNG.

That's pretty unfair since most of DS9 wasn't manichean at all. And the humanist vision was never said to apply outside the Federation - it's just that DS9 spent a lot more time delving into non-Federation cultures and didn't simply dismiss Bajoran religion as foolish childlike savagery.

The authors of the New Testament even used YOUR argument: "Don't believe us? Ask around. There are living people who saw all this happen." That they are dead now doesn't make their statements any less credible.

Given that those authors are writing a century or more after the alleged facts, they couldn't have very well done so.

Sorry, but you're just wrong there. General consensus is that several of Paul's letters were written between CE 51 and 58, and even Revelation before CE 100. At the very least, the Marcion canon (c. 130-140) included a large number of the Pauline epistles as authoritative.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think that's a fine analogy, actually. The writers seemed aware of it, too. For example, in Accession the "orb shadow" sounds very much like an hallucinogen flashback.

However, the references in DS9 to faith generally sound very much like they are intended to be taken as metaphors for Christian faith.

Well, to be fair it's not as though people haven't used mind-altering substances to have a Christian faith-experience before.

True. Point taken. I bet there are quite a few people who have dropped acid and found Jesus.

It's just that psychedelic mushrooms aren't served with the bread and wine, at least at most Eucharists.

 

[sonak]

I think that's a fine analogy, actually. The writers seemed aware of it, too. For example, in Accession the "orb shadow" sounds very much like an hallucinogen flashback.

However, the references in DS9 to faith generally sound very much like they are intended to be taken as metaphors for Christian faith.

Well, to be fair it's not as though people haven't used mind-altering substances to have a Christian faith-experience before.

True. Point taken. I bet there are quite a few people who have dropped acid and found Jesus.

It's just that psychedelic mushrooms aren't served with the bread and wine, at least at most Eucharists.

Church would probably be more popular and better attended though if they were.

 

[JarodRussell]

The Bajoran's have the tears of the prophets, which are obviously real and obviously have the abilities of giving you visions or making you travel through time. Their "religion" is very much grounded in reality. They KNOW their gods exists, instead of simply believing it.

Glowing space rocks that give you hallucinogenic experiences which happen to fall in line with your cultural expectations? Clearly evidence of non-linear wormhole-dwelling aliens.

What's your point exactly? One of those glowing space rocks had the ability to throw the Defiant back in time and back again.. And Sisko & Co determined that they come from the wormhole, with technobabble. And I think that the Prophets (which were measured and explained with technobabble as well) even stated that they came from them. So yeah, they are evidence.

Ever since Starfleet (and I guess the Cardassians as well) showed up, the Bajoran religion turned out to be based on well-documented and scientifically explained phenomena. Unlike any of our real-world religions.

 

[Thestral]

Well, to be fair it's not as though people haven't used mind-altering substances to have a Christian faith-experience before.

True. Point taken. I bet there are quite a few people who have dropped acid and found Jesus.

It's just that psychedelic mushrooms aren't served with the bread and wine, at least at most Eucharists.

That's true for sure. Although, peyote usage is an integral part of the syncretic Native American Church which at least can incorporate Christian beliefs.

Glowing space rocks that give you hallucinogenic experiences which happen to fall in line with your cultural expectations? Clearly evidence of non-linear wormhole-dwelling aliens.

What's your point exactly? One of those glowing space rocks had the ability to throw the Defiant back in time and back again.. And Sisko & Co determined that they come from the wormhole, with technobabble. And I think that the Prophets (which were measured and explained with technobabble as well) even stated that they came from them. So yeah, they are evidence.

Ever since Starfleet (and I guess the Cardassians as well) showed up, the Bajoran religion turned out to be based on well-documented and scientifically explained phenomena. Unlike any of our real-world religions.

But until Dax and Sisko discovered the wormhole the orbs proved nothing - even the Orb of Time would rely on people's testimony.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But until Dax and Sisko discovered the wormhole the orbs proved nothing - even the Orb of Time would rely on people's testimony.

D'oh. It's an excellent point that the discovery of the wormhole was revolutionary, although I wouldn't say the orbs proved literally nothing. Also, to a "doubter", all the wormhole was was a wormhole, albeit a stable one, so it didn't really make any religious interpretation of the orbs more convincing than it already was.

I think "miracles" like being aware of the other timeline in Accession get at least as much mileage for proof of the Prophets as the wormhole itself does.

 

[Drago-Kazov]

Simple: because someone influential on the production side of things is quite religious. So, we get a very preachy, manichean Star Trek show that completely contradicts the humanist vision depicted in TOS&TNG.
You just learn to ignore the horrible religion-heavy episodes ("The Reckoning" had unintentional comical value, though)

The Reckoning is a beautiful episode that teaches us that Force Lightening comes in two different colours.

From this angle it looks lkike they are both shooting from the hip. The wormhole aliens can be naughty when they set up their confrontations.

 

[Amaris]

Simple: because someone influential on the production side of things is quite religious. So, we get a very preachy, manichean Star Trek show that completely contradicts the humanist vision depicted in TOS&TNG.
You just learn to ignore the horrible religion-heavy episodes ("The Reckoning" had unintentional comical value, though)

The Reckoning is a beautiful episode that teaches us that Force Lightening comes in two different colours.

From this angle it looks lkike they are both shooting from the hip. The wormhole aliens can be naughty when they set up their confrontations.

"And I see your Schwartz is as big as mine. Now let's see how well you handle it."

 

[Sindatur]

it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."

If Ira Behr made the claim that Sisko was Half Prophet, that certainly isn't what was shown onscreen. What was shown on screen was that a Prophet possessed Sisko's mother, and influenced her to get pregnant by Sisko's father. Their was no indication the Prophet contributed any Genetic material

 

[JarodRussell]

it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."

If Ira Behr made the claim that Sisko was Half Prophet, that certainly isn't what was shown onscreen. What was shown on screen was that a Prophet possessed Sisko's mother, and influenced her to get pregnant by Sisko's father. Their was no indication the Prophet contributed any Genetic material

Well, it kinda has to be, because otherwise it makes no real sense why they would go through that whole process. Why not simply chose someone who's already born to be the One?

 

[Sindatur]

it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."

If Ira Behr made the claim that Sisko was Half Prophet, that certainly isn't what was shown onscreen. What was shown on screen was that a Prophet possessed Sisko's mother, and influenced her to get pregnant by Sisko's father. Their was no indication the Prophet contributed any Genetic material

Well, it kinda has to be, because otherwise it makes no real sense why they would go through that whole process. Why not simply chose someone who's already born to be the One?

Because it was always the Sisko. Non-Linear, remember. They know it's the Sisko, so they had to ensure the Sisko was created

 

[JarodRussell]

Well that's predestination, he was the Sisko because he's a half prophet. What's so particularly special about him otherwise?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well that's predestination, he was the Sisko because he's a half prophet. What's so particularly special about him otherwise?

Well there's this..

 

[R. Star]

^
He also nailed the mirror Kira in that episode.. though he probably got the space clap from her.. maybe that's why he lost his hair.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What happens in the Mirror Universe stays in the Mirror Universe

 

[Sindatur]

What happens in the Mirror Universe stays in the Mirror Universe

Is that where his Hair went? Truth be told, other than the "Q Punch" he was much more bad ass after losing the hair

 

[DAYoung]

The science of the wormhole aliens reminds me of George Lucas' midi-chlorians: pseudo-science designed to give credibility to otherwise banal religion/mysticism.

But the psychology of faith in DS9 is still interesting, e.g. the Bajoran cult members' desperate longing to be ruled, cognitive dissonance, and so on.