7X02 Dinosaurs On A Spaceship (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)
- Thread starter Samurai8472
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And maybe he IS wearing Eight's clothes.
You cant expect 8 stayed in that frock coat COSTUME he picked up unwashed from a hospital locker....
I think 9 was in 8's coat and clothes.
I think 9 was in 8's coat and clothes.
True, but I really don't see the romantic Eighth Doctor going for something as dark and edgy as what Nine wore.
And usually with each regeneration the Doctor DOES like to switch out his costume (for something that better matches his new and different personality).
My wife and I both thought this episode was awful. Just awful. Boring, uninteresting, cliched, and aimed squarely at 8 year-olds. When did this series become so adamantly a kid's show? I know the BBC says it always has been, but we all know that's nonsense. It's not even cleverly for kids, like Harry Potter; it's just loud and fast and completely devoid of content. Here's the script:
(running down corridor)
Doctor: (insert meaningless motormouth dialogue; content unimportant)
Amy: (insert witty comment)
Rory: (act annoyed)
(insert shot of monster chasing heroes)
(running down corridor)
(repeat for 45 minutes)
When did this series so obviously become about absolutely nothing? The problem is not that it was silly. City of Death was silly, and it's a masterpiece. The problem is, it was about nothing. It had not a single thing to say, not a single moment of anything remotely resembling relevance, aside from a 30 second bit of very nice dialogue between Amy and the Doctor regarding whether he's trying to get rid of them.
Otherwise? This episode, and most episodes of the series, seemed designed to sell toys and mugs and things, and maintain a large child audience demographic. That's it. The episode, I guarantee, was written in ten minutes. The whole tone, the whole "aren't we so cute and zany?" shtick is so off-putting, I wish so badly the writers would sit down for a serious hour or two and really ask each other, "What precisely is our vision of Doctor Who? What exactly is our artistic vision, our purpose? What are we, as artists, trying to communicate? How are we going to bring this venerable old science fiction franchise forward?" But nope - all they do, I'm sure, is relish how much "fun" all their 8 year-old fans think the show is. Of course, 8 years-olds are not very discerning audiences, and it seems, neither are many Doctor Who fans.
This is the show that brought us War Games, Inferno, Caves of Androzani, the first Weeping Angels episode, the "Are you My Mommy?" two-parter - I mean, come on. How is this meaningless crap even remotely acceptable to you guys?
Sigh. Sorry. End of rant.
(running down corridor)
Doctor: (insert meaningless motormouth dialogue; content unimportant)
Amy: (insert witty comment)
Rory: (act annoyed)
(insert shot of monster chasing heroes)
(running down corridor)
(repeat for 45 minutes)
When did this series so obviously become about absolutely nothing? The problem is not that it was silly. City of Death was silly, and it's a masterpiece. The problem is, it was about nothing. It had not a single thing to say, not a single moment of anything remotely resembling relevance, aside from a 30 second bit of very nice dialogue between Amy and the Doctor regarding whether he's trying to get rid of them.
Otherwise? This episode, and most episodes of the series, seemed designed to sell toys and mugs and things, and maintain a large child audience demographic. That's it. The episode, I guarantee, was written in ten minutes. The whole tone, the whole "aren't we so cute and zany?" shtick is so off-putting, I wish so badly the writers would sit down for a serious hour or two and really ask each other, "What precisely is our vision of Doctor Who? What exactly is our artistic vision, our purpose? What are we, as artists, trying to communicate? How are we going to bring this venerable old science fiction franchise forward?" But nope - all they do, I'm sure, is relish how much "fun" all their 8 year-old fans think the show is. Of course, 8 years-olds are not very discerning audiences, and it seems, neither are many Doctor Who fans.
This is the show that brought us War Games, Inferno, Caves of Androzani, the first Weeping Angels episode, the "Are you My Mommy?" two-parter - I mean, come on. How is this meaningless crap even remotely acceptable to you guys?
Sigh. Sorry. End of rant.
Mister Fandango
Fleet Captain
Maybe people just have different tastes, and what you find boring, others find fun and whimsical.
Personally I think its silly that people expect a show about a human-looking alien with a British accent who travels through time and space in a blue police box from the mid 1900s and goes by the completely random name "The Doctor" to be even remotely serious or seeped in hard sci-fi material. Especially when the creators, from day one, set out, intended, and repeatedly state that it's a show aimed at little kids.
That said, I'm one of those people who really enjoyed it. The robots in particular, namely because their design (mostly their heads) reminded me of the benevolent robotic race from The Fifth Element, which is a movie I passionately love and enjoy.
Personally I think its silly that people expect a show about a human-looking alien with a British accent who travels through time and space in a blue police box from the mid 1900s and goes by the completely random name "The Doctor" to be even remotely serious or seeped in hard sci-fi material. Especially when the creators, from day one, set out, intended, and repeatedly state that it's a show aimed at little kids.
That said, I'm one of those people who really enjoyed it. The robots in particular, namely because their design (mostly their heads) reminded me of the benevolent robotic race from The Fifth Element, which is a movie I passionately love and enjoy.
Exactly. The humor is why I got into the show in the first place. I honestly don't see why every story has to be deathly serious and dramatic. I think Big Finish may have spoiled a lot of fans.
The fact you consider the episode to be "meaningless crap" hardly means everyone else is going to think the same. We're not all expected to have the same opinions of TV shows, are we? How boring that would be.
I've just started watching "Robot" (for the first time in ages) - hardly the most deep and meaningful classic Who serial out there, but highly entertaining regardless. "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship" isn't deep and meaningful, either, but I found it pretty damned entertaining, too. There's nothing wrong with TV being that.
What's great about Who is that it can be serious, and it can be silly, and often it can be both by turns within a matter of minutes.
If Who was silly all the time it would be dull, and by the same token if it were dark and gritty all the time people would tune out. The show's schizophrenia is what helps keep it fresh, keeps people tuning in week after week, and unlike a lot of shows, if you don’t like a particular episode, you know there’s a fair chance you’ll like next week’s because its liable to be very, very different.
If Who was silly all the time it would be dull, and by the same token if it were dark and gritty all the time people would tune out. The show's schizophrenia is what helps keep it fresh, keeps people tuning in week after week, and unlike a lot of shows, if you don’t like a particular episode, you know there’s a fair chance you’ll like next week’s because its liable to be very, very different.
The fact you consider the episode to be "meaningless crap" hardly means everyone else is going to think the same. We're not all expected to have the same opinions of TV shows, are we? How boring that would be.
I've just started watching "Robot" (for the first time in ages) - hardly the most deep and meaningful classic Who serial out there, but highly entertaining regardless. "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship" isn't deep and meaningful, either, but I found it pretty damned entertaining, too. There's nothing wrong with TV being that.
I remember seeing this when it first aired and i can tell you the Robot scared the beejesus out of me when i first saw it, and that was in black and white.....the robot is just great to look at.
The fact you consider the episode to be "meaningless crap" hardly means everyone else is going to think the same. We're not all expected to have the same opinions of TV shows, are we? How boring that would be.
I've just started watching "Robot" (for the first time in ages) - hardly the most deep and meaningful classic Who serial out there, but highly entertaining regardless. "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship" isn't deep and meaningful, either, but I found it pretty damned entertaining, too. There's nothing wrong with TV being that.
I'm being misunderstood by some people here (or merely just Straw-manned). I am not advocating that Doctor Who must be always "dark and gritty" or "deadly serious." I am absolutely all for "fun" and "whimsical." What I am not for is "meaningless juvenile crap." By any objective standard of good writing on television, that episode was a waste of time. Comedy is great - Seinfeld was a comedy, and masterfully written. If we're looking at science fiction comedy, Galaxy Quest is great science fiction comedy, as is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and much of Red Dwarf. Science fiction comedy often works very well, and in fact some of Tom Baker and Douglas Adams' episodes are really quite clever and funny.
But this current type of self-consciously cute and "zany" crap we're seeing in Doctor Who now can't hold a candle the the stuff I've just mentioned. It exists solely to waste 45 minutes and sell merchandise. There is no content, no meaning, no purpose, no wit, and no originality anywhere to be found.
And the other poster is right - Robot has scares in it. It has drama. Of course it isn't too "deep", but they have the balls at least to take themselves seriously. This show, clearly not believing its own premise can be taken seriously, doesn't even try - instead, it gives up, throws its hands in the air, and says, "JUST KIDDING! Man in a police box? Travels through time and space? How absurd! Of course it's silly! We would never dare to try to take this seriously, because how could it be? So, everyone, ENJOY! It's FUN and ZANY! NOTHING to take seriously! Because....WE'RE JUST KIDDING!!!" Well, that's cowardly.
I'm just asking for quality. For courage to at least buy into your own premise. You want to do dinosaurs on a spaceship? Here's an idea for the show-runners: try to make the dinosaurs genuinely scary, even awe-inspiring. You don't think it can be done? Go for it. Take a risk. Risk looking silly. But try. Don't be a coward. Try, or you have no right running the Doctor Who franchise.
Not taking things seriously? No scares, no drama? Soloman admits to shoving thousands of silurians out of an airlock. Brian is shot by the robots, the Triceratops is killed, Nefertiti is effectively abducted to be sold into slavery and the Doctor leaves a man to die.
I sometimes wonder if I'm watching a different show to some people...
I sometimes wonder if I'm watching a different show to some people...
I read that in Matt Smith's voice.
And I agree, the episode was pointlessly zany. While there have been some amazing stories, the entire run of Moffat/Smith so far has been a little too zany and a little too fairy-tale. That's a shame because they're both capable of being much, much more than that.
Exactly! Look at all the possibilities for drama! In fact, the idea of Solomon destroying the entire crew for the sake of profit is wonderful! How, how, HOW can they not take advantage of all the possibilities inherent in these ideas? The show doesn't CARE about exploring ANY of that, or taking ANY of that stuff seriously. The possibilities for real drama are brought up extremely quickly, Matt Smith gets all serious for about 10 seconds, the music gets all serious, the show slows down to a more reasonable adult level, and then.....before you know it.....BANG! Someone says something zany, and BANG! - they're off down the corridor running and being all zany and the show doesn't stop for even one second to consider that maybe, just maybe, their viewers do not, in fact, have Attention Deficit Disorder, and maybe, just maybe, they would like the show to actually DEAL in an HONEST WAY with some of the CONSEQUENCES of the plot and character ideas the show has come up with.
But no - all those great possibilities for drama aren't there for the sake of drama at all, it turns out, but simply as a set up for the next set piece of zaniness and fun. That's why those moments of faux-seriousness are so offensive - it's PRETEND drama, it's FAKE drama. The show clearly isn't interested in having any real drama, or any real exploration of any of the themes it brings up, or any real content or purpose. It just pretends to, for about two minutes, without the courage of any convictions.
I view DW with the philosophy of British weather. Don't care for what what I'm currently experiencing? I'll just wait (a metaphorical) 15 minutes and it'll change.
What some people tend to forget was that Sydney Newman intended the show to be something akin to what we'd call today "edu-tainment". The Doctor was to serve mainly as the catalyst for getting Susan, Barbara and Ian from place to place and into their predicaments. (Think of him as something of a Dr. Smith with a time machine.) Susan was to serve as the "every-person", the character who expressed the viewers' questions, fears and amazement. If the setting was "historical" Barbara's knowledge as a history teacher would help resolve the dilemma. If the setting was futuristic, Ian's skills as a science teacher would help win the day. Remember, Newman originally insisted upon NO "bug eyed monsters".
Skip nearly 3 years, but before Hartnell retired from the roll. The show, except for his presence, that of the police box and the console was almost NOTHING like what Newman intended. Susan, Barbara and Ian were gone. Monsters were left, right and center and rarely did they visit historical settings anymore unless it involved a heavy sci-fi element. If Newman had not been thyere all along, he would have been shocked.
Jump another 4 years, and not even the original Doctor's around. In fact, he changed twice! He's also earthbound and working with the military to thwart alien invasions. The show's far more Quatermass by this point with james Bond-like overtures.
6 more years, and the Doctor looks as though he's in his late 30s early 40s at most. He's a Bohenian rebel with just a single traveling companion, and the stories, while rooted in sci-fi, have a distinctly "gothic" air, going so far as to do pastiches of the Frankenstein and mummy venues.
I could go on, but I hope I've illustrated my point. DW is constantly evolving. If I find myself less than enamoured with a particular story, theme, or even Doctor, I try not to let it stress me (too much). I know that sooner or later, things will change, hopefully for something I enjoy better.
Sincerely,
Bill
What some people tend to forget was that Sydney Newman intended the show to be something akin to what we'd call today "edu-tainment". The Doctor was to serve mainly as the catalyst for getting Susan, Barbara and Ian from place to place and into their predicaments. (Think of him as something of a Dr. Smith with a time machine.) Susan was to serve as the "every-person", the character who expressed the viewers' questions, fears and amazement. If the setting was "historical" Barbara's knowledge as a history teacher would help resolve the dilemma. If the setting was futuristic, Ian's skills as a science teacher would help win the day. Remember, Newman originally insisted upon NO "bug eyed monsters".
Skip nearly 3 years, but before Hartnell retired from the roll. The show, except for his presence, that of the police box and the console was almost NOTHING like what Newman intended. Susan, Barbara and Ian were gone. Monsters were left, right and center and rarely did they visit historical settings anymore unless it involved a heavy sci-fi element. If Newman had not been thyere all along, he would have been shocked.
Jump another 4 years, and not even the original Doctor's around. In fact, he changed twice! He's also earthbound and working with the military to thwart alien invasions. The show's far more Quatermass by this point with james Bond-like overtures.
6 more years, and the Doctor looks as though he's in his late 30s early 40s at most. He's a Bohenian rebel with just a single traveling companion, and the stories, while rooted in sci-fi, have a distinctly "gothic" air, going so far as to do pastiches of the Frankenstein and mummy venues.
I could go on, but I hope I've illustrated my point. DW is constantly evolving. If I find myself less than enamoured with a particular story, theme, or even Doctor, I try not to let it stress me (too much). I know that sooner or later, things will change, hopefully for something I enjoy better.
Sincerely,
Bill
I definitely agree with that sentiment... when it comes to this episode. The story was way too rushed, and the nonstop silly antics and cheesy tone made it feel more like an episode of Sarah Jane Adventures than Doctor Who.
But I don't know how one could say that about the rest of the Moffat run. Usually the writers do a much better job balancing out the drama and comedy, and as far as I'm concerned, have come up with stories that are among the most clever and inventive this show has ever SEEN.
Yeah, but the overall jokey, lighthearted tone made it awfully hard to take any of those events seriously.
The threat of Solomon is constantly undercut by the presence of his wacky robots, the shooting of Brian is brushed off quickly with, yup, more jokes from the robots (and Rory's lame threat to disassemble them), and Nefertiti's kidnapping and Solomon's death just feel like a couple of cliched moments out of a cheap action movie.
I think almost every Series/Season has an episode or two that caters specifically to Kids:
The Farting Slitheen
Fear Her, Love And Monsters (Despite the Sex Joke)
Partners in Crime
The Curse of the Black Spot, Night Terrors
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
And I may have forgotten a childish episode or two. It is their show, afterall, so, I am grateful for really good episodes we do get, and truth be told, of the episodes I have listted as being childish, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is my favorite of the group
The Farting Slitheen
Fear Her, Love And Monsters (Despite the Sex Joke)
Partners in Crime
The Curse of the Black Spot, Night Terrors
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
And I may have forgotten a childish episode or two. It is their show, afterall, so, I am grateful for really good episodes we do get, and truth be told, of the episodes I have listted as being childish, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is my favorite of the group
Yeah, its a real shame Dr Who is the only show in town. If only there were other dramatic outlets that could fill our entertainment and intellectual needs. Perhaps then we could all watch something we did enjoy instead of nitpicking something we don't and then insisting it be made for us and not some other audience that's actually enjoying the way that it is.
I enjoyed it, people in the office enjoyed it. Ratings seem strong, its a flag ship product. It is many things to many people, but think of it as a timeshare, and maybe next week will be more to your taste.
Perhaps I don't have the appropriate "objective standard of good writing", or merely a different one, or something else entirely. Whatever the case, I didn't find the episode to be "meaningless juvenile crap". References to "Robot" (which I didn't find scary when I first saw the ep all those years ago, but no matter
) aside, that's pretty much all I was saying. You reference several productions which (Galaxy Quest excepted) I didn't find at all amusing, and that's fine - nothing appeals to everyone, regardless of "objective standards of writing" or anything else. That was the point of my post - not to "straw-man" you or to question anyone's taste or whatever, but to point out that one person's "meaningless juvenile crap" is someone else's "entertaining fluff" (which was my description of the episode in my initial post) or any number of other interpretations. All of which are perfectly valid since we're discussing a TV show and not something with any real greater / wider meaning.The rest of your post makes it clear we're viewing the show from very different perspectives and interpretations. I've generally been unimpressed with much of new Who (and actually stopped watching at one point) but I'm enjoying the present era. That's pretty much all I want from a TV show. To each their own.
What a bizarre sentiment. I'm not discussing quality and drama in other outlets - I'm discussing it in Doctor Who. That's my choice. It's a show I've been with for many decades and feel a fondness for. Doctor Who has been many things to many people over the years, that's true, but I've never, ever seen it as so clearly aimed at ADHD kids as it is now. I believe the product has been led astray and it is entirely within the realms of useful intellectual discussion for me to offer my opinion about why it currently isn't living up to its potential. Is your post meant to imply that critiquing a work of art is nothing more than a nit-picky waste of time? I suppose you don't view art criticism as a useful endeavour? As someone who does it for a living, I find it an entirely valuable use of my time, and if you disagree, you're welcome not to join the conversation.
By the way, I am glad that you, and people you know, enjoyed the episode. I still believe it was meaningless, juvenile crap, and I am more than willing to stick by that opinion (and it is my opinion), and explain in as much detail as anyone desires why I hold that opinion.