What are junior officers?
- Thread starter RB_Kandy
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This is where I have an issue. What do you mean he "shouldn't have an officer's job" or "shouldn't have had offers reporting to him"? Why not? This is not the U.S. Navy, or any modern military. This is Starfleet. Why can't Starfleet have completely different rules on this sort of thing than we do? In fact, since O'Brien did have what we'd consider an "officer's job" and did have officers reporting him, it's been clearly demonstrated that it works differently in Starfleet than it does today. And that's okay. Because it's science fiction.
It works differently in that people of rank report in reverse order to each other in Starfleet? Sounds efficient.
Is there any indication that the system didn't work? It worked on screen as far as I can tell. The fact that it you didn't find it realistic is only due to your expectations of how things "should" work. What's efficient now could be considered out-moded and poorly thought-out in the future.
We all have expectations about Star Trek. Your experience in the military informs your view of Starfleet; my experience in science informs my view of the science depicted in Trek (which is sometimes right and sometimes waay off).
But is it realistic to expect things to not change over the next three centuries? Is it realistic to apply the US military hierarchy to the "space navy" of a multi-species interstellar polity?
We all have expectations about Star Trek. Your experience in the military informs your view of Starfleet; my experience in science informs my view of the science depicted in Trek (which is sometimes right and sometimes waay off).
But is it realistic to expect things to not change over the next three centuries? Is it realistic to apply the US military hierarchy to the "space navy" of a multi-species interstellar polity?
No, in that people's assigned position is generally more important than their rank. Therefore, while a lieutenant could give an order to an ensign generally speaking, that same ensign could issue an order to the lieutenant if he was specifically placed in charge of a department in which the lieutenant was working.
Remember way back in early TNG with "The Arsenal of Freedom"? Geordi is placed in command by Picard. He is a lieutenant junior grade at that point. Logan outranks him. It is stated specifically in the dialog that he does. Yet Geordi is able to issue him orders, and he obeys. Because Geordi has been put in charge by the captain.
Similarly, O'Brien has been put in charge of operations/engineering by Sisko, and within that realm of responsibility, he can issue orders to those working in those departments. Because the captain said so.
And, as has been pointed out, it obviously works very well for Starfleet, because we see it work that way, regardless of how today's military would do it.
Ya know, there is a precedent in the modern US military for officers reporting to NCOs.
In Special Forces units, you may well have an E-8 or E-9 having actual command over O-1s, O-2s, or O-3s.
In Special Forces units, you may well have an E-8 or E-9 having actual command over O-1s, O-2s, or O-3s.
Why wouldn't it be. The ranks don't appear to have changed have they? They are essentially in the same order as they are in today's military. I mean why would they even have ranks then? I'll grant that things might change by the 24th century but I would expect it to be a logical change at least. The chain of command exists so that when things go badly, it is easy to determine who is in charge. I guess our difference of opinion boils down to the fact that what you see on screen you feel is intentionally done so. I'm of the opinion that the writer's were ignorant of the ranking system or simply made a mistake. We'll never know.
Yes, but the only things those ranks determine is what they get paid.
They are special functional groups. You'll find too that most SF groups in the Army at least are led by a CAPT. I've also never met an 0-1 SF officer unless he was prior enlisted. They are a very interesting dynamic.
Thing is, we know Starfleet does consider the lowest ranking officers to outrank the highest ranking NCOs. O'Brien himself says so when Nog goes to the Academy and he says to Bashir "I just had a scary thought. When that kid graduates, I'll have to salute him." If O'Brien is actually expected to salute an Ensign, why does he have command over a Lieutenant? What the hell kind of system is that? "I don't like my boss, so I'm going to get my subordinate, who is also my boss's boss to give him a hard time."
Well I've never seen it. I think O'brien's comment about Nog was just a tongue in cheek nod to the past.
Obviously he was speaking metaphorically. Bottom line, he is stating that an ensign is his superior, yet he somehow has a Lieutenant reporting to him.
How often did we really see or hear of officers reporting to O'Brien? It was it really that often?
I can understand the jarring effect an irregularity like an officer reporting to a noncom can be. I suffer the same effects when I encounter violations of scientific principles in Trek. But c'mon, if I can work out the "science" of Trek can work even when it violates known scientific principles, can't someone from the military work out a plausible explanation for O'Brien? Saying its "just wrong" or "wouldn't happen" isn't any fun.
I can understand the jarring effect an irregularity like an officer reporting to a noncom can be. I suffer the same effects when I encounter violations of scientific principles in Trek. But c'mon, if I can work out the "science" of Trek can work even when it violates known scientific principles, can't someone from the military work out a plausible explanation for O'Brien? Saying its "just wrong" or "wouldn't happen" isn't any fun.
Challenge accepted. Here is my attempt to reconcile. Miles is actually called Chief of Operations. Let's say there is an engineering officer and we'll make him a LT. Miles as a senior NCO is kind of acting as his 1st Sergeant or whatever is similar in the Navy. The LT is actually in charge but we never see him on screen and he has more of an administrative responsibility directing work from an office. Since I've only seen ENS's reporting to O'Brien we could say that this LT makes all of his new ENS's work with O'Brien until O'Brien says they are proficient enough to work on their own.
Best I can do.
It works on screen because it's written that way. The actors say what the writers want them to say. There is no way the characters can "dissent" unless the writers want them to.
Couldn't O’Brien have authority over everyone within maintenance and engineering, including any officer that happens to be fiddling with something in engineering?
For example, Sisko orders some new Lieutenant to go to engineering and have O’Brien show him the ropes on how this new Cardassian/Federation hybrid technology works, and so long as he is acting under Sisko's authority, he has to obey O’Brien, in spite of outranking him?
Some mentioned Seven Of Nine attending a senior staff meeting, I have to agree that is messed up. When people like Seven, Neelix, and Kes attend those meetings, all I keep thinking is "they're not senior officers because they're not even officers, they don't technically carry a rank of any kind." So Janeway should have said "will the main cast join me in the ready room".
One of the things that got me curious about the whole senior vs junior is Mr. Ensign For Life Harry Kim. There is a scene in Voyager The Cloud, As they fly in Harry says “I've never seen anything like it." Tuvac uses his communicator to quietly tell him that is a comment we would prefer not to hear on the bridge it makes the junior officers nervous.
Umm, what junior officers? If Harry is a senior, who, on that bridge, has a lower rank, or less experience?
Maybe this is Tuvac's concept of a joke, like “Careful harry, with your extremely high rank comes high responsibility. Wouldn't want to see you get busted allll the way down to a really low rank. Wouldn't want to see you lose those hundreds of stars and pips on your uniform.” I mean, maybe that's what Tuvac is doing. Maybe after putting up with Janeway's crap all day, and being out ranked by a man who was an enemy of the federation just a few months ago, put him in a fowl mood, and this is how he bullies people. If so it's pretty funny come to think of it. It's the sort of dickish thing Odo would do to Quark when having a bad day.
Here's a question regarding rank, what rank does a doctor have? Like McCoy, Bashir, Flox, Crusher. I'm aware that in medical circumstances, the doctor has full jurisdiction, including ordering a captain to have an exam, or go to bed, and relieving them of duty if the doctor feels they are no longer fit. Also, no officer has the authority to force their hand when it comes to a medical procedure.
In regards to non medical circumstances, what rank do they have authority over?
I know McCoy has authority over everyone who isn't Kirk and Spock, because... because you don't want to piss off McCoy
For example, Sisko orders some new Lieutenant to go to engineering and have O’Brien show him the ropes on how this new Cardassian/Federation hybrid technology works, and so long as he is acting under Sisko's authority, he has to obey O’Brien, in spite of outranking him?
Some mentioned Seven Of Nine attending a senior staff meeting, I have to agree that is messed up. When people like Seven, Neelix, and Kes attend those meetings, all I keep thinking is "they're not senior officers because they're not even officers, they don't technically carry a rank of any kind." So Janeway should have said "will the main cast join me in the ready room".
One of the things that got me curious about the whole senior vs junior is Mr. Ensign For Life Harry Kim. There is a scene in Voyager The Cloud, As they fly in Harry says “I've never seen anything like it." Tuvac uses his communicator to quietly tell him that is a comment we would prefer not to hear on the bridge it makes the junior officers nervous.
Umm, what junior officers? If Harry is a senior, who, on that bridge, has a lower rank, or less experience?
Maybe this is Tuvac's concept of a joke, like “Careful harry, with your extremely high rank comes high responsibility. Wouldn't want to see you get busted allll the way down to a really low rank. Wouldn't want to see you lose those hundreds of stars and pips on your uniform.” I mean, maybe that's what Tuvac is doing. Maybe after putting up with Janeway's crap all day, and being out ranked by a man who was an enemy of the federation just a few months ago, put him in a fowl mood, and this is how he bullies people. If so it's pretty funny come to think of it. It's the sort of dickish thing Odo would do to Quark when having a bad day.
Here's a question regarding rank, what rank does a doctor have? Like McCoy, Bashir, Flox, Crusher. I'm aware that in medical circumstances, the doctor has full jurisdiction, including ordering a captain to have an exam, or go to bed, and relieving them of duty if the doctor feels they are no longer fit. Also, no officer has the authority to force their hand when it comes to a medical procedure.
In regards to non medical circumstances, what rank do they have authority over?
I know McCoy has authority over everyone who isn't Kirk and Spock, because... because you don't want to piss off McCoy
Doctors in Star Trek can carry any rank that any other officer can. For example, in TOS, McCoy was a lieutenant commander. In TNG, Crusher was a full commander.Here's a question regarding rank, what rank does a doctor have? Like McCoy, Bashir, Flox, Crusher. I'm aware that in medical circumstances, the doctor has full jurisdiction, including ordering a captain to have an exam, or go to bed, and relieving them of duty if the doctor feels they are no longer fit. Also, no officer has the authority to force their hand when it comes to a medical procedure.
In regards to non medical circumstances, what rank do they have authority over?
I know McCoy has authority over everyone who isn't Kirk and Spock, because... because you don't want to piss off McCoy
However, doctors and other medical personnel are not normally in the chain of command, and are not normally expected to exercise any command responsibilities on the ship, even if they are of command rank. And the whole "rank vs. position" thing comes into play here too. For example, Data is a lieutenant commander, but he is second officer of the ship. Therefore, under normal circumstances, Crusher would be expect to follow his orders, even though she outranks him, because he's third in the chain of command.
This all gets further muddled with the fact that Chief Medical Officers, regardless of rank, have the authority to relive anyone, even the captain of the ship, of duty under certain circumstances in which they are medically unfit for command. And they can give orders relating to their medical field. So, for example, Lieutenant Commander McCoy could order Captain Kirk into bed rest if it was necessary.
Lastly, we've seen that medical officers can choose to cross-train on the command track, stand duty watches, and even be given command assignments under some circumstances. Crusher chose to train for command and take the test to become a bridge officer, she stands a bridge watch from time to time, and she even ends up in command of the ship in "Descent".
We could further argue that the officer in charge of the engineering or operations aspects is a Bajoran. That is, a Bajoran was originally assigned this job, but he or she essentially did the conscientious objector thing and never reported in. Secretly satisfied with the turn of events, Sisko never said a word about this and let O'Brien run the station as he pleased...
Timo Saloniemi
What actually bothered me wa that Voyager had a tendancy to have main characters cover for other main characters when they weren't available. For example, when B'Ellanna was unavailable, Seven of Nine was in charge of engineering, even though that job should go to Lt. Carey. Also, one time when Tuvok was unavailable Harry took over tactical, when another security officer should have.
Here's a question regarding rank, what rank does a doctor have? Like McCoy, Bashir, Flox, Crusher. I'm aware that in medical circumstances, the doctor has full jurisdiction, including ordering a captain to have an exam, or go to bed, and relieving them of duty if the doctor feels they are no longer fit. Also, no officer has the authority to force their hand when it comes to a medical procedure.
In regards to non medical circumstances, what rank do they have authority over?
I know McCoy has authority over everyone who isn't Kirk and Spock, because... because you don't want to piss off McCoy
McCoy was a Lt. Commander throughout TOS, and a Commander in the movies. Crusher was a Commander. Bashir was a Lieutenant JG in the first three seasons and a full Lieutenant from season 4 onwards. Phlox was a civilian with no rank.
