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Ghostly Encounters

^Sorry about the mix-up. All the talk about granddads and grandmothers had me in that mode of thought.

My guess would be a sleep-related phenomenon like the waking dreams we discussed earlier in the thread.
 
You know, mechanically, a spring mattress is a really complex system, especially an old one. The springs are no longer new, they may be warped or otherwise bent, slightly or otherwise, and the distribution of the imperfections is hardly even. The behavior of an older spring mattress can get chaotic and it can seem to suddenly shift by itself when a person is lying on it.

Without examining where it happened, no one can really know anything. But my first guess would be to explore that line.
 
The only trouble with "waking dreams" is that they are supposed to be the after effects of sleep. You think you've woken up but really haven't. So, if someone is wide awake, laying on a bed and starts to experience something unusual, it's not a waking dream. Now, is it possible they fell asleep, started having this startling dream, and then suddenly awoke seamlessly while "flipping over" so that they didn't realize they were dreaming? I doubt it. Going from a sleeping state to an awake state is a prominent transition of mind.

I remember making a similar transition. I was having a dream where I was a Kung-Fu master of some kind. I was up against a bunch of hoodlums, kicking and punching like mad, and somehow surviving. Then the big guy came into the room and started to beat me up. Somehow I got him to move into a prone position. His groin was ripe for a kick. So I quickly brought my right leg into motion and then kicked at him with ALL MY MIGHT, sending my pointed foot into his vulnerable zone as hard as I could. As this happened, I awoke from my dream and my leg kicked full bore into the wall adjacent to my bed. OUCH!! I stubbed my toe big time. Of course, I knew I had just awakened from a dream. Aside from the sudden change in surroundings, there is the mental state of being aware of things in a dream versus reality. I have had a couple of lucid dreams in the course of my life, but they were only "close" to reality yet still lacking somehow. I always knew the difference.

You know, mechanically, a spring mattress is a really complex system, especially an old one. The springs are no longer new, they may be warped or otherwise bent, slightly or otherwise, and the distribution of the imperfections is hardly even. The behavior of an older spring mattress can get chaotic and it can seem to suddenly shift by itself when a person is lying on it.
Yes, but to compress in a deliberate sequential series of positions around the person, then stop and never repeat again? Remember, they laid perfectly still while this was happening to, not moving around and causing "reactionary compresses". I'd expect that the mattress would continue to randomly compress, albeit less frequently, but certainly continue especially after a person gets up and then lays down again. It's rather weird that it would do this once and not repeat it, even in other locations.
 
I've always known the difference between sleeping and waking, too.

However, I've had some really elaborate dreams, let's say Inception-like, of extraordinary vividness and breadth. The human mind is a powerful thing, and even though it's beyond my experience and I have no evidence to back up their existence, I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally some people have dreams that seamlessly blend in with reality but who aren't precisely or otherwise delusional, either.

Yes, but to compress in a deliberate sequential series of positions around the person, then stop and never repeat again? Remember, they laid perfectly still while this was happening to, not moving around and causing "reactionary compresses". I'd expect that the mattress would continue to randomly compress, albeit less frequently, but certainly continue especially after a person gets up and then lays down again. It's rather weird that it would do this once and not repeat it, even in other locations.

I total agree, hence my caveat.

But to elaborate further on what I mean, a chaotic system is one whose behavior can change drastically under the effect of only slight changes in external forces. Difficulty in getting certain events to repeat is a property of a chaotic system.

Now I appreciate that even this doesn't seem likely to explain the sensation of someone lying down beside someone, but again my caveat is applicable:

No one can know anything without examining where it happened. All we can say are words like, "Yes, that's interesting; it's a puzzle." Which is as far as I'm going.
 
The only trouble with "waking dreams" is that they are supposed to be the after effects of sleep. You think you've woken up but really haven't. So, if someone is wide awake, laying on a bed and starts to experience something unusual, it's not a waking dream. Now, is it possible they fell asleep, started having this startling dream, and then suddenly awoke seamlessly while "flipping over" so that they didn't realize they were dreaming? I doubt it. Going from a sleeping state to an awake state is a prominent transition of mind.
Nope. You're completely wrong on this. Hypnagogic hallucinations can occur before falling asleep. And a hypnagogic hallucination is not the "after effect" of being asleep, though it is related to sleep.
I remember making a similar transition. I was having a dream where I was a Kung-Fu master of some kind. I was up against a bunch of hoodlums, kicking and punching like mad, and somehow surviving. Then the big guy came into the room and started to beat me up. Somehow I got him to move into a prone position. His groin was ripe for a kick. So I quickly brought my right leg into motion and then kicked at him with ALL MY MIGHT, sending my pointed foot into his vulnerable zone as hard as I could. As this happened, I awoke from my dream and my leg kicked full bore into the wall adjacent to my bed. OUCH!! I stubbed my toe big time. Of course, I knew I had just awakened from a dream.
Which means this wasn't a waking dream, this was waking from a dream...this happens all the time.
Aside from the sudden change in surroundings, there is the mental state of being aware of things in a dream versus reality. I have had a couple of lucid dreams in the course of my life, but they were only "close" to reality yet still lacking somehow.
True, there is a different mental state from dreaming and waking, but there is no solid line between conscious and unconscious, rather a progression. Anytime along this progression it is possible to have bizarre experiences that feel like waking reality, but are not.
I always knew the difference.
No, you didn't. You didn't because that is actually impossible. If you want to read about how the brain fools us into thinking things that are not real are real, you can check out the links I posted previously in the thread to the Neurologica Blog, or you could read any number of great books on psychology or neuroscience and/or reason, I'd recommend: How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallacy of Human Reason in Everyday Life or Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.
You know, mechanically, a spring mattress is a really complex system, especially an old one. The springs are no longer new, they may be warped or otherwise bent, slightly or otherwise, and the distribution of the imperfections is hardly even. The behavior of an older spring mattress can get chaotic and it can seem to suddenly shift by itself when a person is lying on it.
Yes, but to compress in a deliberate sequential series of positions around the person, then stop and never repeat again? Remember, they laid perfectly still while this was happening to, not moving around and causing "reactionary compresses". I'd expect that the mattress would continue to randomly compress, albeit less frequently, but certainly continue especially after a person gets up and then lays down again. It's rather weird that it would do this once and not repeat it, even in other locations.
How do you know the person laid perfectly still? Did you have a video recording her? Anecdotal evidence is worse than worthless, because not only is it patently inaccurate, it actively leads us to wrong conclusions.
 
How do you know the person laid perfectly still?

What I was getting at by referring to "slight changes in external forces." But I would expect, since Velocity was presumably breathing, that she was not perfectly still.

Oh, I agree with you. That question was directed at Gary7. I think that the springs in the old mattress causing the sensation is a perfectly sound hypothesis, and is as likely as a sleep-related phenomenon. Or perhaps the experience Velocity had was a combination of both.
 
I could buy it if the springs were boinging up, as if being released from being caught or something, but the mattress was methodically moving down first, then slowly moving back up. Only happened that one instance. There is an answer, but I don't know what it is. Thanks for the suggestions.
 
I knew I had just awakened from a dream. Aside from the sudden change in surroundings, there is the mental state of being aware of things in a dream versus reality. I have had a couple of lucid dreams in the course of my life, but they were only "close" to reality yet still lacking somehow. I always knew the difference.

This varies from person to person and even dream to dream. 99.999% of the time I know when I wake from a dream. But, I used to have more intense dreams for a span of time. And, for a couple of the most intense of those, I woke up without realizing it. Once, I started pacing back and forth in my dream fretting about what happened in the dream before I realized that I was awake. But, that was only a couple of time in my life.

I've also had lucid dreams and the realism of those have varied. Sometimes it was so incredibally real that even in the dream I was impressed, and honestly shocked, at how real it was. Other times, not as much. For example, in one things looked real and solid but they were not organizated as rationally as the real world, like a house design that didn't quite make sense. Another was even less real where everything looked fade. So, it runs the full spectrum.

Mr Awe
 
No, you didn't. You didn't because that is actually impossible. If you want to read about how the brain fools us into thinking things that are not real are real, you can check out the links I posted previously in the thread to the Neurologica Blog, or you could read any number of great books on psychology or neuroscience and/or reason, I'd recommend: How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallacy of Human Reason in Everyday Life or Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.

What? You presume to tell me that I cannot perceive the difference between what I know to be the dreaming state and the waking state? Your declaration is false, because you do not know me and my mind, and what they are capable of. It's like telling me that the blueberry pie I smelled coming from the kitchen where I knew my girlfriend to be baking was just my expectation of a blueberry pie and that my senses were conjuring up an hallucination to fulfill my expectations. Bullocks.

Why, you might as well go the distance and tell me that my perception of TBBS is a complete illusion and that everything I read is my own expectation of it and that nobody else sees the text that I see.
 
I've always known the difference between sleeping and waking, too.

Actually, I'm going to walk this back, because it doesn't express what I meant when I wrote it, at all.

I recall having some dreams in which I thought I was awake. But, now that I've awoken from them, I can look back at them and know that they were dreams.

Further, I'm convinced in those cases that the mechanism by which I thought I was awake which was in operation while I was asleep was itself compromised by dreaming. In comparison, the mechanism by which I think I am awake that operates while I am awake is much less compromised.
 
What? You presume to tell me that I cannot perceive the difference between what I know to be the dreaming state and the waking state? Your declaration is false, because you do not know me and my mind, and what they are capable of. It's like telling me that the blueberry pie I smelled coming from the kitchen where I knew my girlfriend to be baking was just my expectation of a blueberry pie and that my senses were conjuring up an hallucination to fulfill my expectations. Bullocks.

Why, you might as well go the distance and tell me that my perception of TBBS is a complete illusion and that everything I read is my own expectation of it and that nobody else sees the text that I see.

This is sarcasm isn't it? that is so cute. very well done.
 
No, you didn't. You didn't because that is actually impossible. If you want to read about how the brain fools us into thinking things that are not real are real, you can check out the links I posted previously in the thread to the Neurologica Blog, or you could read any number of great books on psychology or neuroscience and/or reason, I'd recommend: How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallacy of Human Reason in Everyday Life or Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.

What? You presume to tell me that I cannot perceive the difference between what I know to be the dreaming state and the waking state? Your declaration is false, because you do not know me and my mind, and what they are capable of. It's like telling me that the blueberry pie I smelled coming from the kitchen where I knew my girlfriend to be baking was just my expectation of a blueberry pie and that my senses were conjuring up an hallucination to fulfill my expectations. Bullocks.

Why, you might as well go the distance and tell me that my perception of TBBS is a complete illusion and that everything I read is my own expectation of it and that nobody else sees the text that I see.

I presume nothing, everything I've said is based in fact. I understand that this is an extremely difficult concept to wrap one's head around; not only is the underlying neuroscience difficult in itself, but the reality is so different from what it appears to be that it can be hard to accept on an intellectual level, and what this implies about ourselves is very frightening to some people, and so can be hard to accept on an emotional level. As an analogy, imagine what it must have been like when the microscope was invented, and all of the sudden you were supposed to accept that there was a whole other world, too small for us to see -- it must have blown a lot of people's minds! Anyway, as you appear to have not clicked the links to the reading I suggested, I would be happy to explain some of the fundamental facts to the best of my ability, but first, I need to note the logical fallacy you committed: the false continuum. Recognizing that our personal experience of reality is inherently subjective does not imply that there is no objective reality. The trendy postmodern ideology that reality itself is subjective is quite the opposite of what I am saying, best illustrated by looking at the extreme school of thought: a solipsist would say that your mind is the only thing you can really know, the reality is that your mind with all certainty cannot be known.
Let me note one last thing before I begin: as bizarre or counter-intuitive as some of the concepts that I'm about to discuss may seem, none of these are unproved, untested, fringe, or bizarre hypotheses -- this is actually all fairly basic brain science with decades of enduring and substancial quality evidence to back it up.

Your logical fallacy was a common one, and it, along with the other common logical fallacies, are part of the reason we cannot trust our own perceptions. I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: our brains function under a general rule of Get It Mostly Right Most of the Time. This is good enough for everyday living, but it is not good enough when it comes to making higher-order judgements about the nature of reality.

First, let's look at perception: I've already discussed this in this very thread, but I guess you missed it. To give the very simplified explanation of function, when you perceive something, let's say by seeing it, it is not as simple as just looking out the window of your eyes and getting an exact image of the world. Your eye, remarkable organ though it is, receives an upside-down, messy image. That imperfect image is then translated to nerve signals which are sent to the brain. The brain then decodes the signals and reconstructs them into images we can understand, but the signals are so imperfect that the brain has to rely on tricks like pattern-seeking and even just making data up to give us a complete picture. What's more, information can be lost or jumbled at any point during the process. The image you see is not in your eye, it is in your brain, and it is a construction based on data. This is exactly why we can picture things in our heads that we're not actually looking at, or imagine things that we've never actually seen, or have visuals in our dreams -- this is the brain performing this image-constructing function without any input data from the senses. It is also why damage to the occipital lobes can cause blindness when the individual's eyes can be functioning perfectly.
Here is Richard Weisman's super fun Color-Changing Card Trick, a great example of how imperfect your perceptions are:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE[/yt]

Everything you see, hear, smell, etc, is a reconstruction of reality by the brain. For an everyday example of how inaccurate our senses are you can look at any optical illusion or watch any magician. These tricks exploit the imperfection of our senses, and the gimmicks the brain uses to try to make up for them. This rule of Get It Mostly Right Most of the Time, is the 1st major reason you cannot aways tell the difference between sleeping and waking, or know for sure if something you saw was actually there, etc. (As an aside, there is a special part of your brain responsible for reality-testing, making sure what you are experiencing actually makes sense. This function appears to be inactive when we are asleep, which is why we can have such fantastical dreams and not realize that they make no sense until we wake. In schizophrenics, there are marked structural differences in the reality-checking part of the brain as compared to healthy individuals. This function can also be impaired pharmacologically.)

The second major reason is the natural fallaciousness of human reason, which is partly informed by the Get It Mostly Right rule, and partly informed by brain anatomy. So, let's look at the anatomy. Your brain is made up of the brainstem, which is where a lot of the most basic functions (breathing, sleep-wake cycle, etc) are controlled; the cerebellum, which functions almost as it's own self-contained brain, and controls motor coordination; the diencephalon, which includes the hypothalamus, thalamus, and other structures and functions as a relay between the cortex and sensory input/output, as well as dealing with hormones; and finally, the telencephalon, which is where our smarts are. The telencephalon contains the cerebrum, which is the most evolved part of our brains, and where the highest-order thinking occurs. The basic problem with human reasoning comes from the fact that our brilliantly complex cerebrum spends most of its time rationalizing the activity in the more primitive parts of the brain. This leads to logical fallacies, which everyone, irrelevant of intelligence, education, or experience, make all the time.
Some logical fallacies, like post hoc ergo propter hoc (literally, "after this therefore because of this"), the idea that because B followed A, A must have caused B, happen every day, and it is easy to see both why they are an approximation of good reasoning (again, the Get It Mostly Right rule), and yet in reality very bad reasoning. Other logical fallacies, like the False Continuum, can be a little trickier to spot. Here is a list of 20 common logical fallacies, just familiarizing yourself with these will help you recognize when your brain is fooling you. Though all are relevant to this discussion, I'd primarily suggest noting Confirmation Bias, Confusing Correlation and Causation, Argument Ad Ignorantum (which is a real biggie in this thread), and Confusing the Unexplained with the Unexplainable (another biggie here).

Finally, the third major cause is that memories are imperfect. They are not only inaccurate on the outset, but every time we think of them they change, they can fade, they can merge with other memories, they can be stolen from other people, or they can even be made up completely. Every one of these things has been proved. Here is a study showing how easy it is to create false memories, for example.

Again, I'd highly recommend Dr Novella's blog, as one of it's primary focuses is explaining how neurology (his profession) causes the thinking problems that are the natural state of affairs. Here is his entry on why anecdotal evidence is "worse than worthless", Phil Plait's blog, "Bad Astronomy" is also an excellent resource, along with P.Z. Myer's blog, Pharyngula. The Sagan book I linked to, The Demon Haunted World is another great place to start!
 
This reminds me a lot of a guy I used to know, a Dartmouth graduate with honors, who'd fall back on the "we can't know with complete certainty what anything really truly is" when he found himself losing an argument. You're basically saying that without hard core scientific evidence, nothing is trustworthy because it could all be an illusion. Well, that's a pretty black and white stance to take.

I may have indeed missed some of what you previously said, because you often provide so much content that it requires significant time to digest it. When I see very lengthy posts, I often don't read every line unless it is specifically directed to me (with few exceptions). I know you've got a strong scientific background and are impassioned to convey your perspective and what you know, but when your content starts to exceed 1,000 words in a single post (e.g. this last one was over 1200), it becomes daunting to read through it all.

So yes, I do agree that the brain can be deceived or fool itself. We see perfect examples of this in cases of professional magicians and illusionists (aptly named). I do know that each of us do not have completely objective perceptions of reality. BUT we do have a certain degree of consistency that "I think" can be relied upon (you obviously don't agree). If we did not, then no social conventions would work at all. The traffic light system is a perfect example of something that works most of the time, because people see them function consistently and predictably with their own eyes, not requiring other devices to assist. Only in very rare circumstances does someone mistaken the signals and hallucinate seeing something else ("I swear that light was green" when in fact the intersection video camera captured the vehicle going through the red light). From what I gather, you're essentially saying that as long as there isn't 100% reliability, then all data is suspect. And my point is that it's not a pass/fail dynamic. If the reliability is 90%, I would still treat the data as trustworthy with a margin for error. Not everything has to be boiled down using pure scientific methods with 100% proven results.


Anyway... you give me links to a website on how to construct a valid argument. I'm not sure if this is a not-so-subtle insult or if you're trying to provide information on brain perception. I'll try to assume the latter... In any case, our politicians could certainly learn a thing or two about logical fallacies, something that they seem highly prone to making.
 
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This reminds me a lot of a guy I used to know, a Dartmouth graduate with honors, who'd fall back on the "we can't know with complete certainty what anything really truly is" when he found himself losing an argument. You're basically saying that without hard core scientific evidence, nothing is trustworthy because it could all be an illusion. While "possible", I still feel "unlikely" is the more operative word.

I may have indeed missed some of what you previously said, because you often provide so much content that it requires significant time to digest it. When I see very lengthy posts, I often don't read every line unless it is specifically directed to me (with exception if there is just way too much information for me to care about). I know you've got a strong scientific background and are impassioned to convey your perspective and what you know, but when your content starts to exceed 1,000 words in a single post (e.g. this last one was over 1200), it becomes daunting to read through it all.

So yes, I do agree that the brain can be deceived or fool itself. We see perfect examples of this in cases of professional magicians and illusionists (aptly named). I do know that each of us do not have completely objective perceptions of reality. BUT we do have a certain degree of consistency that can be relied upon. If we did not, then no social conventions would work at all. The traffic light system is a perfect example of something that works most of the time, because people see them function consistently and predictably with their own eyes, not requiring other devices to assist. Only in very rare circumstances does someone mistaken the signals and hallucinate seeing something else ("I swear that light was green" when in fact the intersection video camera captured him going through the red light). From what I gather, you're essentially saying that as long as there isn't 100% reliability, then all data is suspect. And my point is that it's not a pass/fail dynamic. If the reliability is 90%, I would still treat the data as trustworthy with a margin for error. Not everything has to be boiled down using pure scientific methods with 100% proven results.
^Oh, you don't have to say it, it is vividly clear that you didn't read my post carefully, because everything I said has hardcore scientific evidence. I even linked to original studies, blogs by a noted neurologist, a noted astronomer, and a noted biologist, a video produced by a noted psychologist, and a book by Carl Sagan! Ignoring the evidence (what you are doing) does not mean it's not there. You are making assumptions about something you clearly know nothing about, and you are ignoring the evidence. This is not good.

For more evidence feel free to look at any psychology 101 or basic neuroscience text.

ETA: I just have to add, because it's so mind-bogging that you just did this, but do you realize you've just admitted that you didn't look at the evidence because it was too much, and then claimed I had no evidence???????????? Seriously??????????
 
When conducting a debate with someone on a forum such as this, there is always the matter of degree. How deep a debate is it intending to go? How much time do the participants have for it? I did not set out to have a major in depth debate about human reasoning, assumption, and illusion. Just because you dump a significant amount of data and essentially drown the conservation with loads of quoted facts and references does that obligate the other person to read it entirely or respond in kind. What makes for a more productive and entertaining debate is when responses stick to a few relevant facts and details and drives home a point with selective wording. I've read many of your posts with others in the past and I noticed that you have a strong proclivity for resorting to a saturation of details in response. Here is no exception. While the effort is admirable, as you certainly do provide a lot of useful information, for me it's just over the top. I would love to discuss this on more friendly terms, but sadly it doesn't seem like we're capable of reaching it. No insult intended, honestly.

Incidentally, I don't get where you claim I said you have no evidence. :confused::confused:
 
^Has the debate become unfriendly? Because I hadn't seen that.

I have no problem with you not reading my entire post. It is a lot of information. When I make posts like that it is because I find it an intellectually stimulating activity, I really enjoy it, and I hope that maybe a few others on the board will be interested as well. My problem is not with you not reading my post, it is with you saying that I have no evidence, which is patently false -- you don't have to read it all to see that I've linked to quality evidence -- and then continuing to assert that I am wrong. The intellectually honest thing to do would be to say something like, "It doesn't sound right to me, but I haven't looked at all the evidence so I cannot make an informed opinion."

As to your point about debate, everyone has different standards of debate and types of debate they enjoy. I think it fairly obvious that I enjoy rigorous debate. However, you seem to be trying to have it both ways. You demand evidence, and when I make a lengthy post explaining exactly why my claims are true (nothing in that post was tangential or irrelevant), you say there is too much. You can't have it both ways.


Incidentally, I don't get where you claim I said you have no evidence. :confused::confused:

You're basically saying that without hard core scientific evidence, nothing is trustworthy because it could all be an illusion.
 
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I think it's a fallacy to insist that one must look at all evidence presented by another in order to have an informed opinion on a given matter. Some material may be repetitive or incidental to the topic at hand. Also, some material may be enough in of itself to continue debate rather than requiring to spend hours pouring over all the remaining information provided. I will have to admit, I'm not prepared to have as rigorous a debate as you wish. For in essence, you are suggesting that I go off and read a few books before I can come back and say I have an "informed opinion." Is anybody who has participated in this thread an authority on ghostly encounters? Nobody has come forth and said so. In that case, how could we effectively debate this subject at all, if we are to take the purely scientific approach? It's all conjecture based on our own personal perceptions.

I never said you have no evidence. I was reiterating what appears to me as a summation of your position, that a given observation (e.g. ghostly) made without hard scientific evidence must be considered totally untrustworthy. As I'm sure you recall, the topic is about ghostly encounters and the observations people have of them.

So, essentially this has all distilled down to the accuracy of perception. And while it can be flawed, it can also be discovered to be accurate depending upon the circumstances. The difficulty is the context and knowing when there is a greater chance for it to be flawed or accurate. What it ultimately comes down to is that if anybody ever raises a point based on their observations, then we are to consider what they say unreliable and suspect at best. If we did that, the forum would probably be eerily silent.
;)
 
I think it's a fallacy to insist that one must look at all evidence presented by another in order to have an informed opinion on a given matter.
I never said that you have to look at all evidence presented by me, or anyone else. I offered several citations not because I expected you to read them all, but for these reasons: for your benefit should you be interested (and anyone else's, should they be interested), because I hold myself to high standards and think that it is a poor job done not to provide evidence, and to show that the claims I made are not unsupported, but based in very sound, basic, and thoroughly evidenced science. I am not saying that you have to know everything about the subject, I am saying that it is intellectually dishonest to say that I am wrong and dismiss my evidence (saying I had "no hard core scientific evidence"), and in turn provide no evidence for your own position. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying there is no such thing as a single-celled organism, refusing to look into a microscope at an amoeba when it's presented, then claiming again that there's no such thing as an amoeba.
Some material may be repetitive or incidental to the topic at hand.
Everything I wrote was directly relevant to the topic at hand. The two books I linked were expressly about how our perceptions fool us, the studies I linked were about specific instances, and the blogs I linked, while more likely to stray from the topic, each deal with this subject explicitly and regularly, and I linked to a specific post. So none of my evidence was incidental. As for repetitive, how can you be getting repetitive information if you're not reading any of it in the first place?
Also, some material may be enough in of itself to continue debate rather than requiring to spend hours pouring over all the remaining information provided. I will have to admit, I'm not prepared to have as rigorous a debate as you wish. For in essence, you are suggesting that I go off and read a few books before I can come back and say I have an "informed opinion."
If you want to say I am wrong then yes, this is what I'm suggesting. But there is nothing wrong with saying that you don't know about the field. Believe me, I would not presume to tell anyone they were wrong about an equally difficult or complex topic in geology or economics or any other subject about which I am not informed.
Is anybody who has participated in this thread an authority on ghostly encounters?
Of course not, because there's no such thing. :p
Nobody has come forth and said so. In that case, how could we effectively debate this subject at all, if we are to take the purely scientific approach? It's all conjecture based on our own personal perceptions.
Firstly, why would you take any approach other than scientific? Despite what postmodernism has led our generation to believe, ideologies are not truth, and science is the appropriate tool for judging what is real. The science behind the fallibility of our perceptions is not "conjecture based on our own personal perceptions" at all.
I never said you have no evidence. I was reiterating what appears to me as a summation of your position, that a given observation (e.g. ghostly) made without hard scientific evidence must be considered totally untrustworthy. As I'm sure you recall, the topic is about ghostly encounters and the observations people have of them.
Okay, I see where I misunderstood you. Yes, it is my position that a given observation make without evidence is untrustworthy, and I have given sufficient evidence to support that position. All of which is relavent to the topic at hand; if you read only one link I provided, read the blog post by Dr Novella on anecdotal evidence. The reason people see ghosts is a fundamental flaw in all humans' perception of reality.
So, essentially this has all distilled down to the accuracy of perception. And while it can be flawed, it can also be accurate. The difficulty is the context and knowing when there is a greater chance for it to be flawed or accurate.
It's not that difficult though. Anecdotal evidence is always flawed. To what degree may be the question.
What it ultimately comes down to is that if anybody ever raises a point based on their observations, then we are to consider what they say unreliable and suspect at best. If we did that, the forum would probably be eerily silent.
;)
Oh come on, don't try to make it sound as if I'm trying to silence anyone. You can't apply this specific debate over a specific scientific topic to the whole board and every topic discussed. Talk about a logical fallacy!
 
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