You're right. I can't remember the last time a feminist set off a pipe bomb in a country club or shot up the local sports bar.
Woman of the Week #5: Simone de Beauvoir
- Thread starter { Emilia }
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You're right. I can't remember the last time a feminist set off a pipe bomb in a country club or shot up the local sports bar.
Actually that would be on topic...historically I mean
Simone de Beauvoir wrote the text of the Manisfesto of the 343, a manifesto signed by 343 women who declared having an abortion when that was still not legal.
This was a huge mediatic step to the legalization of abortion with the Veil* law in 1975.
* Simone Veil would make a good woman of the week. Not now, one Simone is fine, 2 is an invasion
Actually that would be on topic...historically I mean
Simone de Beauvoir wrote the text of the Manisfesto of the 343, a manifesto signed by 343 women who declared having an abortion when that was still not legal.
This was a huge mediatic step to the legalization of abortion with the Veil* law in 1975.
* Simone Veil would make a good woman of the week. Not now, one Simone is fine, 2 is an invasion
Right, but abortion is only really controversial in the US (within the defined set of Western democracies, I mean.) And there is no percentage in debating it, because the people who oppose it believe it is murder based on their religious values. There is no logic or reason which will erode that, so it is pointless to debate.
I said "historically" for a reason
So I'm genuinely curious since you're the most awesome female French poster on this board: What do you think about my pick? First time I pick a French WOTW. Good choice?
Obviously I'm not claiming any of my picks are perfect. But she deserves the mention, right?!
A case could possibly be made that extremists (on any issue) could harm their case.
Given that every movement has extremists, it is best to simply ignore them.
I'm the only female French poster
I know you don't expect a lot of American to have heard about her but to tell you the truth, I wouldn't expect a lot of French to know a lot about her too. Her name is still in the collective memory but her work has certainly been forgoten. I'm myself not very familiar with it but I remember the activism.
So yes, it's a good choice, it's a personnality who deserves to be remembered more than she actually is.
About 20 years ago I wrote a paper comparing second-wave feminism to third-wave feminism for an anthropological theory course, and during my research I came across an extreme feminist who declared that women can only be liberated when every one of them becomes lesbian, as men are are not needed for women to achieve orgasm and therefore serve no purpose at all to women (apart from donating sperm, I assume, but I can't remember if that was mentioned). I can't give you the author's name as I no longer have that paper, but I do remember laughing at the extremity of her views.
Sadly, it seems to me that the term feminism is often linked with these kinds of extreme views, and that therefore many women do not wish to call themselves feminists. It's the whole concept of feminists as hairy man-haters, incapable of rational thought. I've come across "feminist" being used as an insult, FFS.
Am I a feminist? Hell, yes. I advocate for equal rights for women and equal respect for women so that my daughter will hopefully have a better life, the same way I advocate for the rights and respect of people with special needs so that my younger son will hopefully have a better life. Thanks to people like de Beauvoir women are better off than they used to be, but there's still quite a way to go.
I've heard of her, but whenever I hear her name I automatically thinkf the line in the Nina Hagen song "Unbeschreiblich Weiblich" which features her, probably because the rhythm has burned itself into my brain. It's a kind of feminist song, though, at least.
I haven't read any of her works, although I always supposed I should but I got stuck on Schopenhauer and Nietzsche in my philosophical reading.
Anyway, I've always seen feminism as a good thing, and something that's still very necessary. I wouldn't mind being called a feminist but I lack the activism part. Somehow, my political activism has gone into other causes so far. It's odd because I believe that the inequality in pay even in our presumably civilised countries is a great injustice. Yet, I've never really done anything about it. I guess that makes me a resigned feminist. On the other hand, it isn't a problem that's not so easily solved because it's so widespread.
I haven't read any of her works, although I always supposed I should but I got stuck on Schopenhauer and Nietzsche in my philosophical reading.
Anyway, I've always seen feminism as a good thing, and something that's still very necessary. I wouldn't mind being called a feminist but I lack the activism part. Somehow, my political activism has gone into other causes so far. It's odd because I believe that the inequality in pay even in our presumably civilised countries is a great injustice. Yet, I've never really done anything about it. I guess that makes me a resigned feminist. On the other hand, it isn't a problem that's not so easily solved because it's so widespread.
You can but then it's more of a label denoting a set of beliefs held in a certain area and not even a very distinct one because these labels ending in 'ist' tend to mean a lot of different things to different people.
I mainly just didn't want to step on the toes of those who are actually engaged in the political struggle by basking in their achievements.
I mainly just didn't want to step on the toes of those who are actually engaged in the political struggle by basking in their achievements.
Well of course it should be same pay for the same job.
Could we have mixed football teams, sure why not.
In sporting events should we have parity i.e in Tennis where men and women play a different number of sets.
As for elected officals, I don't care if there male, female, black white etc.. All I ask is they do the best job they can. Really the last thing on my mind when I'm in a polling booth is the gender/ethnic origin of the candidates.
Perhaps we are not there yet but we should have 100% equality in all areas.
Some areas of some sectors no doubt pay equally, but perhaps only at the lower end of the wage market.
Could we have mixed football teams, sure why not.
In sporting events should we have parity i.e in Tennis where men and women play a different number of sets.
As for elected officals, I don't care if there male, female, black white etc.. All I ask is they do the best job they can. Really the last thing on my mind when I'm in a polling booth is the gender/ethnic origin of the candidates.
Perhaps we are not there yet but we should have 100% equality in all areas.
Some areas of some sectors no doubt pay equally, but perhaps only at the lower end of the wage market.
I definitely think there's still more work to be done towards equality, yeah. I don't know that I've never been freaked out by feminists specifically, though some of the more militant ones are offputting. There's definitely a cultural trend towards pointing towards the more extremist individuals and trying to paint the whole movement as such - which to pick on my own religion would make a lot of Christians scream if people tried to paint all Christians as sharing the beliefs of Westboro Baptist, for example. In my opinion the positive effect feminism has had on society can't be ignored or downplayed, so I'm glad for the work of women like de Beauvoir (even if I also hadn't hear of her really before talk of this thread).
I wonder if the fact that it's not legal discrimination but cultural is part of the "push back" against feminism in places like the US? A sort of misguided "well the important part is taken care of, right?" attitude?
I wonder if the fact that it's not legal discrimination but cultural is part of the "push back" against feminism in places like the US? A sort of misguided "well the important part is taken care of, right?" attitude?
I've called myself a feminist since I was 12 and started reading my mother's MS magazines. I've watched the deterioration of the label in the public eye to the point where I can say I'm continually astonished at the kinds of people who give me negative feedback for the term.. it seems that bashing it is now the open minded thing to do.
My roots were second wave feminism. In the last five years I've been challenging myself with third wave ideas, particularly about sex, sex work and gender fluidity. I'd still have to label myself a second waver but I want to hear what third wave differences have to say. The staunchness of the second wave is not always helpful because it focuses on ideology at the expense of individuals in my experience.
As to your "we should all be lesbians" story I love separatists. I think it's the world building that fascinates me. A lot of their writing is startling and challenging. Good for them, I'm glad we live in a world where technology and wealth allows us to make such choices. That people react and point to them as extremists (not you, people generalized) says a lot about how choices that differ from the mainstream are still under fire (and not just women's choices). As someone said in this thread, there are no pipe bombs here just people creating their lives.
Why does the computer always kick me out when I try to post a longish response! Argh! Ok, I lost my post, but my main points were:
I completely agree with Macloudt. I believe in equal rights and it truly frightens me that a number of young women believe that the job is "done" and refuse to even use the word feminist unless in a derogatory fashion.
Six years ago I took a Women's Lit. course. I was in my late 30's. There were 2 other mature students. The rest of the class was 18 to 20 years old. These educated young women believed that equality had been achieved (they could study anything they wished at university couldn't they?)
When we discussed HR "traps" during interviewing (the ones where they decided if you were fit to hire based on whether or not you planned to have kids) they laughed. When shown the stats regarding women passed oner for promotion (or not hired at all) because they had a family and couldn't commit the time they became sombre. Then they said "well, I guess I'll have to make a choice at that time".
What??!!
Clearly we have a long way to go...and I'm afraid that we are actually losing ground.
I completely agree with Macloudt. I believe in equal rights and it truly frightens me that a number of young women believe that the job is "done" and refuse to even use the word feminist unless in a derogatory fashion.
Six years ago I took a Women's Lit. course. I was in my late 30's. There were 2 other mature students. The rest of the class was 18 to 20 years old. These educated young women believed that equality had been achieved (they could study anything they wished at university couldn't they?)
When we discussed HR "traps" during interviewing (the ones where they decided if you were fit to hire based on whether or not you planned to have kids) they laughed. When shown the stats regarding women passed oner for promotion (or not hired at all) because they had a family and couldn't commit the time they became sombre. Then they said "well, I guess I'll have to make a choice at that time".
What??!!
Clearly we have a long way to go...and I'm afraid that we are actually losing ground.
There's an assumption that each new generation will start with the previous generations achievments and keep moving forward but I don't think this is the case. In many ways you are starting from scratch every time because the patriarchy voice is just as loud as ever. By the time you get the 18 year old in college she's probably heard more bullshit and absorbed more disenpowering talk than she has feminism.
I think you're right Teacake. One of the 18 year olds told me her Dad encouraged her to "study and get a good job, but don't let those hairy legged feminists tell you what you should do". She was also encouraged to meet a smart young man "with prospects" to support her when she stopped work to raise her family. Sigh.
