Authors on the Boards

[Shane Houston]

IDIC... Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations...

I think of the IDIC when I think of the TrekBBS. This is a great place for fans all across the world to get together and debate and share their love for Star Trek. In my way of posting on here I've never seen the authors as anyone above or less than the average fan, because that's what most of them are themselves, Star Trek fans. The only difference between the "average" fan and them is that they are privileged enough to add to the Star Trek universe in a way the average fan cannot. It's special yes but at the end of the day they're just fans like any other. And you have to admit that since Star Trek started in 1966 that most of the fans have been passionate about all things Trek ever since. The writers here are no different.

I had a debate with Christopher yesterday. He is (not kissing ass here) my favorite Trek author. But that didn't mean I totally agreed with what he had to say to me yesterday. But when he pointed out the flaws in my argument in an intelligent and thoughtful way I changed my mind. But I liked how the interaction was respectful and enjoyable because when it comes down to it we are the same, fans of a genre we love. I think that those who post here like Christopher, David Mack, Kirsten Beyer and Greg Cox are wanting to be treated as the rest of us are. They seem to want to have an enjoyable back and forth with everyone.

That means when something upsets them, like the shut the fuck up comment yesterday, that should be free to express that opinion without those that disagree with them making it about their work or whether or not they should post here. What if I had told someone to shut the fuck up? I wish I had beat Mack to it because that's exactly what I was thinking. But if I had beat him to it I would have maybe got a warning but I doubt if people would still be addressing it the next day.

The point is why should we make a big deal about the authors posts anymore than the average poster? Indeed it's cool to have great insight into their books and people should be considerate that what they say about those books to them matters. But in posts outside of that topic they are, and I think want to be, treated like anyone else. Treating them like you would you yourself would be treated makes it a relaxing atmosphere that invites future writers to join us here on the TrekBBS.

We all need to learn to respect each other, author or no author, when there is a difference of opinion. It would be sad if they decided to leave here but not because they are writers of good books. But because we would lose fellow fans who love Trek as much as we do.

 

[JRoss]

I think Greg Cox sets the best example of how a professional should conduct himself when dealing with a fangroup message board. He will respond to legitimate questions and comment freely but I haven't seen him get baited into a stupid flame war over his work.

+1

 

[Timewalker]

Personally, I don't think I've seen a single instance of any authors reacting inappropriately.

When you're telling people to "shut the fuck up", you've reacted inappropriately.

I'd have to disagree. Sure it might be kind of harsh, but if you're not going to be reasonable in your criticisms, then you should just shut the fuck up. You honestly can't expect the authors to just sit and take when people are ripping on their work for no good reason.

I'd consider "shut the fuck up" inappropriate in about 99.9% of situations. I've used the phrase myself, but never here on Trek BBS, and it was certainly not on a topic to do with fiction books.

As far as being "reasonable" in one's criticisms, "reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder. And sometimes there is a very good reason why a reader may be "ripping on" their work.

Please note that I have no idea what this incident with Mr. Mack is referring to, as I've not read any threads to do with him for several months.

 

[Relayer1]

I think that those who post here like Christopher, David Mack, Kirsten Beyer and Greg Cox are wanting to be treated as the rest of us are. They seem to want to have an enjoyable back and forth with everyone.

I'm on the boards for a band I'm a big fan of (it's not difficult to get from my ID and avatar) and the band's keyboard player posts occasionally. He's not to everyones taste and there's certainly sometimes some 'back and forth', although he can more than hold his own. I for one am very happy he bothers.

I wouldn't want things to get that way here though. Not everyone actually wants to take the rough with the smooth. Even when disagreeing, there shouldn't be any 'rough'.

 

[JD]

As far as being "reasonable" in one's criticisms, "reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder. And sometimes there is a very good reason why a reader may be "ripping on" their work.

I don't know about that. I think it can be pretty clear when something is not reasonable. For instance I think most people would agree that saying you think a book is stupid for no other reason than that it features a certain character or a group of characters you don't like. Sure it's fine if you don't like the character but saying a book is bad just because of who's featured in it really isn't a fair criticism. Just because you don't like something in a book doesn't mean that it's bad, it just means you don't like that aspect of the book. You not liking a book doesn't make it bad, it just means that one reader didn't like it. Now, if you say you don't like a book because it's filled with plot holes, bad characterizations, and badly written prose, then those are fair criticisms.

 

[Timewalker]

Okay, I've tracked down the thread referenced (the "shut the fuck up" response).

I honestly don't understand Mr. Mack's rudeness. Really - does he think that a fan has no right to criticize his work unless said fan is a paid professional author? Granted, the thread title was offensive, but a moderator could have stepped in and changed it. Or shut it down from the get-go. And those phrases? If they're all written by the same author (no matter how many different books), this goes beyond even Diane Carey levels of annoying.

I do think it's unreasonable for Mr. Mack to say that such repetitious phrases are fine because readers might not remember them from book to book. Hello: These are STAR TREK fans we're talking about. STAR TREK fans remember EVERYTHING. No matter how small a detail, IT WILL BE REMEMBERED.

And now, having seen yet another example of rudeness from this author, that's yet one more reason why his books will never be welcome on my reading list.

 

[JD]

Well, that's from different books by different authors. And as a regular reader, I do appreciate reminders like that appearing from time to time (even in the same book) since I don't always remember exactly what kind of accent a character has, or what color their hair is, or other things like that.

 

[Christopher]

And now, having seen yet another example of rudeness from this author, that's yet one more reason why his books will never be welcome on my reading list.

Look... that's just Dave being Dave. He comes across as quite the grouch on the surface, but this is a guy who has an entire blog devoted to cute pictures of bunny rabbits. His aggressive, profanity-laden speaking style may seem like rudeness or hostility, but I think in Dave's case it's more just a New York City dialect. When I first met him, I didn't think he was the type of person I'd get along with, but we've become good friends and that was largely at his initiative.

And seriously, he was responding to a very juvenile and needlessly rude post, picking on something trivial and perfectly justifiable, not offering any meaningful criticism but just harping on one minor detail, and titling the thread in a truly disgusting and offensive way (not to mention spamming the board by starting a second thread on the same topic). I found that far more rude and indefensible than anything Dave said in response.

 

[Sci]

Okay, I've tracked down the thread referenced (the "shut the fuck up" response).

I honestly don't understand Mr. Mack's rudeness. Really - does he think that a fan has no right to criticize his work unless said fan is a paid professional author?

I can't speak for David Mack, but I think it's pretty damn obvious that he was reacting to the poster's rudeness and mean-spiritedness. That poster was not engaging in criticism, he was just being insulting for no reason.

I do think it's unreasonable for Mr. Mack to say that such repetitious phrases are fine because readers might not remember them from book to book.

1. Not every Star Trek fan is as obsessive about details as the cohort that self-selects to engage in online fandom.

2. Not every Star Trek fan reads every book.

3. Seriously, whining about the occasional similar word choice is nit-picking at its pettiest.

And now, having seen yet another example of rudeness from this author, that's yet one more reason why his books will never be welcome on my reading list.

I am sorry to hear that you deny yourself excellent novels because the man dares to talk back to someone who treated him like shit for no reason.

 

[Timewalker]

I am sorry to hear that you deny yourself excellent novels because the man dares to talk back to someone who treated him like shit for no reason.

I deny myself his books because he's been rude not only to me, but to other people on this forum. And while the latter thread's title was definitely uncalled-for, that doesn't excuse the over-the-top nastiness that was said to me, weeks ago in a different thread. And I certainly didn't treat him like "shit."

 

[Captaindemotion]

Okay, I've tracked down the thread referenced (the "shut the fuck up" response).

I honestly don't understand Mr. Mack's rudeness. Really - does he think that a fan has no right to criticize his work unless said fan is a paid professional author? Granted, the thread title was offensive, but a moderator could have stepped in and changed it.

But two threads with almost the same title on exactly the same subject? While the other thread was still ongoing? (It still is, in fact)

I don't think I've ever told anyone to STFU on this board and I did sort of go 'Wow' when I read Mr Mack's reply ...but I can kinda see where he was coming from.

 

[sidious618]

I love when an author doesn't pull punches and Mack certainly shouldn't have in this situation. I'd have said the exact same thing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I do think it's unreasonable for Mr. Mack to say that such repetitious phrases are fine because readers might not remember them from book to book.

I think you totally missed Mack's point. The "repetitious phrases" are used to describe how the character looks, sounds or moves. They aren't "repeated" because an author thinks the reader forgot they were used previously, but because it gives the reader an image of the character. They jog the memory of an old reader or gives a new reader information about a character they are meeting for the first time. We aren't talking about Kirk, Spock or Picard here, but characters who might never have appeared on film.

And now, having seen yet another example of rudeness from this author, that's yet one more reason why his books will never be welcome on my reading list.

If I avoided writers with "bad reputations" I'd read a lot less. For me its about the work and entertainment I get from it. They'd have to do something much worse than be rude to get me to stop reading.

 

[Use of Time]

I guess I just don't understand why David even bothered in the first place. I mean, I feel like if it was me I would have just been like "meh, this guy's a jackass," and then get on with my life. I feel like I fail as a human being when I start screaming at people on the internet. I just don't do it. It's pointless. To each his own I guess.

 

[Mage]

Yes, authors should not be rude or pissed of when they feel that are threated unfairly. They are not human and must act above our own petty behaviour.

Some very silly comments in this topic. Was the comment rude? Heck yeah! Was it uncalled for? Heck no!! Their was no fair critique towards mr. Mack that resulted in his outburst. Someone was taking the piss out of him, and he reacted. If any other forummember was being treated such, and reacted such, not a single f*** would be given.

But Oh Dear Me, an author, one who is above us all and idolized and must not act as if he be human, must stand above us and not react. Well f*** that. David Mack had EVERY right (which, by the way, all men have) to speak up for himself when he is being pissed on. If you can't take that, you need to wake up and realize that the people who write this novels are human beings. They can get their feelings hurt, they can get angry, they can laugh, they can cry. And to think it's ok to make fun of someone and then asume they cannot react accordingly.... My God, in what a silly world you must life then.

 

[Mage]

Okay, I've tracked down the thread referenced (the "shut the fuck up" response).

I honestly don't understand Mr. Mack's rudeness. Really - does he think that a fan has no right to criticize his work unless said fan is a paid professional author? Granted, the thread title was offensive, but a moderator could have stepped in and changed it. Or shut it down from the get-go. And those phrases? If they're all written by the same author (no matter how many different books), this goes beyond even Diane Carey levels of annoying.

I do think it's unreasonable for Mr. Mack to say that such repetitious phrases are fine because readers might not remember them from book to book. Hello: These are STAR TREK fans we're talking about. STAR TREK fans remember EVERYTHING. No matter how small a detail, IT WILL BE REMEMBERED.

And now, having seen yet another example of rudeness from this author, that's yet one more reason why his books will never be welcome on my reading list.

At no point was there fair critique, something David has stated as being able to take. It was simply a forum member acting badly and childish, finding something about an author he did not like and almost act like a bully about it.

 

[iarann]

Do we really need a third thread dealing with this? Wasn't the last one closed for a reason?

Look, if you make a harsh comment meant to troll the board (and yes, taking a bunch of character description quotes out of context to use as an example of poor writing counts as as trolling, especially when there was already a post about it) you can expect harsh responses. Would you expect different if you went up to an author at a convention and said the same to their face? Just because you are a fan doesn't give you some sort of intrinsic eliteness on the boards that means an author can't respond in the same way they were addressed.

Make an insulting comment, expect an insulting reply. The end. Can we drop the issue now?

 

[Sci]

I am sorry to hear that you deny yourself excellent novels because the man dares to talk back to someone who treated him like shit for no reason.

I deny myself his books because he's been rude not only to me, but to other people on this forum. And while the latter thread's title was definitely uncalled-for, that doesn't excuse the over-the-top nastiness that was said to me, weeks ago in a different thread. And I certainly didn't treat him like "shit."

Are you talking about the time you picked a fight with David Mack over a joke he made about his own book?

'Cos, yeah, actually, you treated him like shit.

 

[Dukhat]

I deny myself his books because he's been rude not only to me, but to other people on this forum. And while the latter thread's title was definitely uncalled-for, that doesn't excuse the over-the-top nastiness that was said to me, weeks ago in a different thread. And I certainly didn't treat him like "shit."

Then think of it this way: I think David Lee Roth is a narcissistic, self-centered jackass, but that's not going to stop me from listening to my Van Halen albums. Sure, Roth wasn't a jackass to me personally, but I know better than to have delusions that he'd want to be my best buddy and that he's a super-awesome guy just because I like his music.

Now if David Lee Roth was running for office, that'd be a different story. But he's just making tunes, just like Mack is making books.

 

[Use of Time]

Yes, authors should not be rude or pissed of when they feel that are threated unfairly. They are not human and must act above our own petty behaviour.

Some very silly comments in this topic. Was the comment rude? Heck yeah! Was it uncalled for? Heck no!! Their was no fair critique towards mr. Mack that resulted in his outburst. Someone was taking the piss out of him, and he reacted. If any other forummember was being treated such, and reacted such, not a single f*** would be given.

But Oh Dear Me, an author, one who is above us all and idolized and must not act as if he be human, must stand above us and not react. Well f*** that. David Mack had EVERY right (which, by the way, all men have) to speak up for himself when he is being pissed on. If you can't take that, you need to wake up and realize that the people who write this novels are human beings. They can get their feelings hurt, they can get angry, they can laugh, they can cry. And to think it's ok to make fun of someone and then asume they cannot react accordingly.... My God, in what a silly world you must life then.

Maybe. I'm not saying that he doesn't have the right or I hold him to some higher standard. I'm just saying that I find it somewhat strange and a little amusing that he would bother to go duke it out with someone he considers a troll on the internet.

If David wants to do that well then by all means, rage on. I just didn't really expect to see that.