Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

[Christopher]

Not to get into another canon argument with you (please!), but this is like the situation with Zephram Cochrane... two different actors playing the characters decades apart, with completely different interpretations that completely screw up the timeline.

If Pike was morose and brooding in "The Cage" - just think how much MORE upset he'd be if he had to contend with an arrogant little smartass like Kirk at the same time!

Well, I've said before that the two versions of Cochrane don't screw up anything; after all, his two appearances were 205 years apart. I'm not the same person now that I was 20 years ago; just imagine how unrecognizable a man's personality could be after more than 200 years. The only problem I have with First Contact is that James Cromwell was way too old for the role, given the chronology "Metamorphosis" established.

And I don't think your assessment of Pike makes any sense at all. Remember, the Pike in "The Cage" wasn't just "upset" or "brooding" -- he was grieving after the death of several of his crew. Combine that with the fatigue the entire crew was showing at the start of "The Cage," and it's understandable that Pike could've been suffering from an uncharacteristic state of depression.

So prior to 2009, we never actually saw what Christopher Pike's normal personality was like, except maybe for that last minute or two of "The Cage" after he beamed back up from Talos IV and seemed a lot more cheerful. So there's no reason at all why Greenwood's Pike couldn't be representative of what the man was normally like when he wasn't depressed and in mourning. We simply don't know enough about Pike's normal personality to rule that out. And since it's the only other canonical example of the character that we have, there's no valid reason not to accept it.

 

[CoveTom]

More interesting to me was the whole kerfulffle over Number One and Spock, both of whom NBC wanted GONE post haste. GR could only save one, and almost had to chose the alien for story reasons.

No, that was the story Gene Roddenberry made up to make himself look better. In fact, NBC had no problem what-so-ever with the character of Number One. What they wanted was for Roddenberry to recast the role. They didn't think Majel Barrett was a very good actress and, more importantly, they didn't want the producer's mistress in a starring role. Roddenberry wasn't willing to recast the role and so he turned it into "NBC hates women!" story to make himself look better.

 

[FormerLurker]

snip

Here's a photo montage I whipped up in black & white, showing Hunter and Shatner. Now, believe it or not, it's hard to find photos of Shatner smiling in black & white, but very easy to do so with Hunter! This works against the point I was trying to make. But even here, you can see how Shatner's face is softer compared to Hunter, even without smiling much.

These smiling pics of Jeffrey Hunter are the reason that, far more than original model Fred MacMurray, I see Hunter as a live action Captain Marvel. If only, in another world...

 

[Ian Keldon]

More interesting to me was the whole kerfulffle over Number One and Spock, both of whom NBC wanted GONE post haste. GR could only save one, and almost had to chose the alien for story reasons.

No, that was the story Gene Roddenberry made up to make himself look better. In fact, NBC had no problem what-so-ever with the character of Number One. What they wanted was for Roddenberry to recast the role. They didn't think Majel Barrett was a very good actress and, more importantly, they didn't want the producer's mistress in a starring role. Roddenberry wasn't willing to recast the role and so he turned it into "NBC hates women!" story to make himself look better.

Out of curiosity, have you got a source for that?

 

[CoveTom]

^ You can search existing threads here to find this discussed numerous times. There are a variety of sources out there that confirm it. Probably the best known is the book Inside Star Trek: The Real Story by Herbert Solow and Robert Justman.

 

[Therin of Andor]

A very sad series of events. I wonder if current knowledge might have saved him? Or, considering just how fast and how silent a killer this condition can be, maybe it was just inevitable.

Complicating all those incidents, IIRC: supposedly Hunter was very reliant on alcohol to get through a typical day, and some of those incidents might not have happened if he'd been sober more often. (Also from Inside Star Trek: The Real Story by Herbert Solow and Robert Justman, IIRC.)

 

[Harvey]

More interesting to me was the whole kerfulffle over Number One and Spock, both of whom NBC wanted GONE post haste. GR could only save one, and almost had to chose the alien for story reasons.

No, that was the story Gene Roddenberry made up to make himself look better. In fact, NBC had no problem what-so-ever with the character of Number One. What they wanted was for Roddenberry to recast the role. They didn't think Majel Barrett was a very good actress and, more importantly, they didn't want the producer's mistress in a starring role. Roddenberry wasn't willing to recast the role and so he turned it into "NBC hates women!" story to make himself look better.

Out of curiosity, have you got a source for that?

The story is told in both Inside Star Trek: The Real Story and Gene Roddenberry: The Myth and the Man Behind Star Trek. Roddenberry frequently exaggerated and lied to make himself look better in the public eye. Combined with other factors, this leads me to suspect this version is closer to the truth.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Yes, exactly. Pilots are often more self-contained and TV-movie-like than regular run episodes, and so with "The Cage." Here the central character had kind of a psychological dilemma and didn't know whether he wanted to continue with the life he was leading. After his experiences in the episode, he seems to be more at peace and, of course, ready for more adventures.

When you put it that way, it sounds exactly like "Emissary." If we only knew Benjamin Sisko from the pilot episode, we'd probably think he was a pretty grim, morose figure as well.

And while not as grim or morose as either Pike in The Cage or Sisko in Emissary, I think the Picard of Encounter at Farpoint came across as a slightly nervier, altogether less confident man than the one we came to know and love.

I think Pike as played by Hunter came across as a more restrained and introspective character than Shatner's Kirk. However, I do think that this had as much to do with the style of acting as the writing. I don't really think the characters were written massively differently, at least, S1 Kirk wasn't.

I've read on occasion that NBC wanted a more action-based and less cerebral show than was presented in The Cage. If this is true, I reckon that Shatner was definitely more the leading man for them than Hunter was.

 

[Christopher]

I think Pike as played by Hunter came across as a more restrained and introspective character than Shatner's Kirk. However, I do think that this had as much to do with the style of acting as the writing. I don't really think the characters were written massively differently, at least, S1 Kirk wasn't.

The way Kirk was written definitely changed over time, and in his first several episodes, he was very much like Pike. In "The Corbomite Maneuver," he had the same discomfort toward having a female yeoman that Pike had. And in "Mudd's Women," Kirk was the only human male crewmember who wasn't gaga over the women, because he was just so darn serious and driven and committed to his duties. That's hard to reconcile with our eventual image of Kirk the womanizer, but it's something that would've felt perfectly natural for Pike if Hunter had remained the series lead.

 

[Gary7]

Captaindemotion makes an excellent point. Looking at Picard in the 1st and 2nd season, he's a bit stiff at times, unsure of himself... even a bit petty. This is in stark contrast to the Picard we see come back from Borg assimilation. By the same regard, it really is unfair to judge Hunter too harshly. That's why my only real comment was about his facial impression coupled with his general personality. I still feel he would have been a little "harder" and less likable than Shatner. But who knows... his evolution with the character may have eclipsed that. It's just a shame we'll never know, unless we find a way to tap into a universe where Hunter continued as Pike for TOS S1-S3!

 

[Greg Cox]

Just watched "Balance of Terror" again. And, yeah, I could definitely see that ep working with Pike instead.

Indeed, the scene where Kirk, overwhelmed by the responsibilities of command, has a heart-to-heart with McCoy is very reminiscent of a similiar scene in "The Cage."

 

[Bubbles McGee]

Which is a good thing too. I know there are a lot of running jokes made at Shatner's expense but I swear Hunter didn't change his facial expression the entire episode. For some reason he seemed generally pissed off the entire 45 minutes. I'll grant him that he didn't really get much of a grace period to evolve his character. That being said, I loved the episode.

I agree! Hunter was far less dynamic as the ship's captain than Shatner.

 

[Gary7]

"didn't change his facial expression the entire episode", "far less dynamic"... How long ago did you guys watch the episode? Maybe you're basing it on the snippets of Cage scenes in the Menagerie. You've got to watch the whole Cage episode in its entirety. Yes, Pike is portrayed as a very serious captain who rarely smiles. But he does show a range of emotion. And... just look at Kirk in early S1 episodes compared to later on. Huge difference. Hunter didn't have a chance to develop his role.

 

[indranee]

Follow-up: Something I should know, but cannot remember at present -- were scripts for the second pilot ["The Omega Glory," "Mudd's Women," and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" were commissioned before the latter was chosen] initially written with Pike instead of Kirk, or was the character recast before the episodes went to teleplay?

According to Inside Star Trek, Hunter dropped out before those three scripts were written. Between that, The Making of ST, and the Unseen Elements of the Original Series Episodes site, I can offer the following rough chronology:

May 18, 1965: Roddenberry issues a memo listing many possible character names for the new captain, with "Kirk" at the bottom (though with "North" penciled in after it).

May 27: First draft script of "Where No Man..." refers to captain as Kirk.

First week in June: The three scripts are submitted to NBC.

June 10: Herb Solow orders "Where No Man..." put into production.

June 18: Roddenberry refers to "Kirk" in memos.

Sometime in June: William Shatner cast.

Interesting! Do you by any chance know where I can find a similar timeline (like this with the dates attached) for the events leading up to the conception/writing/filming of the Pilot?

 

[Captain Shatner]

Before you accuse me of Shatner-hating, let me refer you to my username to prove my admiration for him. That being said...I couldn't see Pike overacting the way Kirk did. Imagine him in this sequence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAvRBDQqSmY
Admittedly, the poor writing of And the Children Shall Lead didn't help, but even so...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Do you by any chance know where I can find a similar timeline (like this with the dates attached) for the events leading up to the conception/writing/filming of the Pilot?

A timeline might be a speedy way to put everything in order, but why not chase up "The Making of Star Trek" by Whitfield (with Roddenberry), "World of Star Trek" by Gerrold and the relatively more recent "Inside Star Trek: The Real Story" by Solow & Justman - and let the various perspectives meld together?

 

[indranee]

Do you by any chance know where I can find a similar timeline (like this with the dates attached) for the events leading up to the conception/writing/filming of the Pilot?

A timeline might be a speedy way to put everything in order, but why not chase up "The Making of Star Trek" by Whitfield (with Roddenberry), "World of Star Trek" by Gerrold and the relatively more recent "Inside Star Trek: The Real Story" by Solow & Justman - and let the various perspectives meld together?

I haven't read the third one... will check it out, thanks.

 

[Bubbles McGee]

"didn't change his facial expression the entire episode", "far less dynamic"... How long ago did you guys watch the episode? Maybe you're basing it on the snippets of Cage scenes in the Menagerie. You've got to watch the whole Cage episode in its entirety. Yes, Pike is portrayed as a very serious captain who rarely smiles. But he does show a range of emotion. And... just look at Kirk in early S1 episodes compared to later on. Huge difference. Hunter didn't have a chance to develop his role.

Granted that one episode is not sufficient for an actor to "develop his role." But if you compare the two pilots you'll see that Kirk runs a whole range of emotions in WNMHGB whereas Hunter generally looks constipated throughout the Cage. His facial expressions change very little between the heart to heart with the doctor, discovering that he is in a cage, getting turned on by Vina, etc.... In short, Hunter doesn't really look like he wants to be there. Does anyone know if he thought the show he was a part of at that time was weird? I heard a Nimoy interview in which he said that one of the reasons why Hunter didn't stay on was because Paramount could not get him the movie deals he wanted.

 

[Maurice]

^^^No, because Desilu wasn't part of Paramount, then.

 

[Drago-Kazov]

Was it ever explained in a comic or a book why Pike wanted to become a slave trader?

Normal alternatives would had been smuggler, starting his own business or something like that.