Beltran: Being Vocal About Chakotay

[Alpha Flyer]

SISKO: How long before they reach Cardassia Prime?
KIRA: Fifty two hours.
WORF: If the Klingon Empire has reverted to the old practices, they will occupy the Cardassian homeworld, execute all government officials, and install an imperial overseer to put down any further resistance.
SISKO: I think it's about time we had a talk with the Cardassians.

Space.

Not a nice place.

Michael Eddington was still in a cell after Cardassia joined the Dominion and after the Maquis had been obliterated by a culling fleet. I suppose they could have gotten him on vandalism charges for what he did to all those Starships or that planet rather than conspiracy, sedition and treason, since operating a 5th column inside Starfleet, a top secret institution, using Starfleet's resources to make ethically upside down star chamber decisions without oversight...

From without or within the Maquis and Section 31 seemed to have similar parasitic relationships with starfleet and the federation that they are simultaneously hunted and loved.

The law is the law; additional facts don't change it. What changes is how it is applied on a case-by-case basis, as it always does. Some people will get off, others not - depending, as you say, on the type of charges laid.

Space is not a nice place. Agreed. Gene Roddenberry's vision of a playground where people share all their toys is really the one place where his vision is nice, but ... overly optimistic.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Sierra Leone, the West Bank, the killing fields of Cambodia and Rwanda -- not nice places either. And yeah, you can't usually apply the law in the middle of a conflict. But after the dust settles it's still there, and then there can be (unfortunately too rarely) a reckoning. (I just finished a story on post-conflict situations, called "After the Ashes" -- link below)

All this to say I'd probably have an easier time getting Chakotay and his folks off than Michael Eddington, for a variety of reasons, but I'd sure give it the old college try.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Life Line, Season 6, Episode 23...

CHAKOTAY: Good morning. Problem?
JANEWAY: I haven't decided. I've just listened to a communiqué from Admiral Hayes.
CHAKOTAY: Nice to have friends in high places.
ADMIRAL HAYES [on monitor]: Hello, Captain. I hope this message finds you well. From what I understand, it has not been easy, but I want you to know that a lot of people here are very proud of what you've accomplished. I also want to assure you that we have not given up finding a way to get you home. We've redirected two deep space vessels toward your position. If all goes well, they could rendezvous with you in the next five to six years.
JANEWAY: Computer, advance to time index one twenty one point four.
ADMIRAL HAYES [on monitor]: as we get closer and our conversations become more frequent. When you respond to this message, please let us know of any casualties. I'm sure you've had more than your share. I'm anxious to know the status of your crew, the Maquis, first contacts that you've made, interactions with the Borg, but there'll be time for everything. Our thoughts are with you. Talk to you soon.
CHAKOTAY: What.
JANEWAY: Status of the Maquis.
CHAKOTAY: Do you find that surprising?
JANEWAY: I don't think of you or B'Elanna or the others as Maquis. I think of you as part of my crew.
CHAKOTAY: You may have forgotten, but we haven't. You heard the Admiral. It'll be years before we have to deal with those issues. Let's worry about it then.
JANEWAY: Do you have lunch plans?
CHAKOTAY: Is that an invitation?
JANEWAY: I was hoping you'd help me compose a response.
CHAKOTAY: You're on.

The episode's writing credit is attributed to Bob Picardo, but the producers polish these things up a lot, so who can really tell.

When the Dominion surrendered, you would have to wonder how much Cardassian territory the Federation took, certainly they don't want slaves, and refugees can be almost as difficult to manage as (literally) entitled aborigines, but they would have taken and held land and space which the war worn citizens of the Federation might have felt that they had earned, and really from the other side, would the Cardassian resistance have fought so hard if they had known that the Federation would be demanding half the Union in reparations for siding with the Dominion and...

Why take (just) half?

The Cardasians were in almost no position to do anything but to join the Federation or become sheep to a new Klingon sortie pillaging up and down their all but open boarders, but if they're going to sign up no matter what, why would the Federation insult Cardassia for 5 whole minutes by taking half? I mean it's not like the Spoon heads were going to join the Romulan Star Empire rather than be eternally beholden to the Federation after all these years of looking down their noses at...

Of course if that Cardassians sided with the Romulans to prove their independence and backboneS, well... The Star Empire probably died with Romulus' sun after they first new movie when Spock fluffed everything up with that red matter.

The Anatomy of the future government of Cardassia will change how it choses to behave in relation to the Maquis terrorists in Federation cells which they still might want to get their hands on because you know how scarcity works.

In the beginning when they were catching Nazi war criminals it wasn't such a big deal, catch them try them, hang them, go out and look for some more... But these days if they found someone "important" it would be fricking amazing, and the same so with this, the last of the Maquis.

Although if the Dominion war didn't put that Maquis scuffle into perspective, we are dealing with some very small people.

 

[Alpha Flyer]

In the beginning when they were catching Nazi war criminals it wasn't such a big deal, catch them try them, hang them, go out and look for some more... But these days if they found someone "important" it would be fricking amazing, and the same so with this, the last of the Maquis.

Although if the Dominion war didn't put that Maquis scuffle into perspective, we are dealing with some very small people.

All true. War crimes trials these days (e.g. at the INternational Criminal Court) deal only with "the most serious criminals". Never an easy issue. The Rwanda tribunal dealt with several dozen cases, the "givers of orders"; another 100,000 or so were kicked into an overwhelmed domestic system that eventually resorted to non-criminal proceedings (gacaca) to allow for peace and reconciliation. How to deal with the Voyager Maquis would be a matter for prosecutorial discretion (and perhaps some loud-mouthed politicians with a personal stake in sucking up to the Cardassians -- my own speculation/stipulation in "Choices").

You may be interested that in the trade, the people who are still hunting for decreasing and rapidly aging/dying population of Nazi war criminals have been referred to as "the Ghostbusters". Unfortunately, there is always a fresh crop of nasties out there, for whom the justice mills grind far too slowly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As bad as the Maquis might have possibly been, as instantly politically forgiven as they might be, receiving REAL rank postings and celebrity... there's still the Equinox 5 to consider who are are on shit eating detail below decks, who's much smaller crimes are not going to be swept under the rug because they offended/impacted Janeway personally.

Ghostbusters.

That's funny.

 

[Alpha Flyer]

As bad as the Maquis might have possibly been, as instantly politically forgiven as they might be, receiving REAL rank postings and celebrity... there's still the Equinox 5 to consider who are are on shit eating detail below decks, who's much smaller crimes are not going to be swept under the rug because they offended/impacted Janeway personally.

Ghostbusters.

That's funny.

Yeah, the Equinox crew. Poor, misguided sods. In my story I have them kicked out of Starfleet -- they don't have the self-defence/defence-of-others angle the Maquis can at least arguably lay claim to. Using sentient beings as fuel is right up there with turning them into soap or lampshades, in my book, and following orders hasn't been a defence to crimes against humanity for decades. Off with their heads, as the Red Queen would say ...

 

[R. Star]

As bad as the Maquis might have possibly been, as instantly politically forgiven as they might be, receiving REAL rank postings and celebrity... there's still the Equinox 5 to consider who are are on shit eating detail below decks, who's much smaller crimes are not going to be swept under the rug because they offended/impacted Janeway personally.

Ghostbusters.

That's funny.

Yeah, the Equinox crew. Poor, misguided sods. In my story I have them kicked out of Starfleet -- they don't have the self-defence/defence-of-others angle the Maquis can at least arguably lay claim to. Using sentient beings as fuel is right up there with turning them into soap or lampshades, in my book, and following orders hasn't been a defence to crimes against humanity for decades. Off with their heads, as the Red Queen would say ...

I really don't see how that's worse than helping the Borg beat Species 8472. Not only did this earn the Federation a new, and potentially lethal enemy, but this indirectly did lead to the assimilation of other worlds as witnessed in Hope and Fear.

 

[exodus]

As bad as the Maquis might have possibly been, as instantly politically forgiven as they might be, receiving REAL rank postings and celebrity... there's still the Equinox 5 to consider who are are on shit eating detail below decks, who's much smaller crimes are not going to be swept under the rug because they offended/impacted Janeway personally.

Ghostbusters.

That's funny.

Yeah, the Equinox crew. Poor, misguided sods. In my story I have them kicked out of Starfleet -- they don't have the self-defence/defence-of-others angle the Maquis can at least arguably lay claim to. Using sentient beings as fuel is right up there with turning them into soap or lampshades, in my book, and following orders hasn't been a defence to crimes against humanity for decades. Off with their heads, as the Red Queen would say ...

I really don't see how that's worse than helping the Borg beat Species 8472. Not only did this earn the Federation a new, and potentially lethal enemy, but this indirectly did lead to the assimilation of other worlds as witnessed in Hope and Fear.

It is.
8472 claimed they were going to kill EVERYBODY! They were an enemy of the Federation before Voyager ever got there. Even if the Borg had lost, Species 8472 were going to kill all those people mentioned in "Hope & Fear" anyway. Helping the Borg or not helping the Borg, their fate would have been the same.

Ransom and crew knew right from the start that they would be murdering off nearly an entire species just to get them home. Ransom and his crew did what they did to benefit nobody else but themselves. The aliens they were killing never wanted revenge on anybody but the Equinox crew. They weren't out to conquer anybody.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway was in a damned if she did, damned if she didn't situation.

If she saved the Borg, they would assimilate again. If she let the Borg die, all life in the galaxy, maybe the universe would be exterminated... If they felt that they were on a roll. but in way was any promise by the Borg that they would stop assimilating, or that they weren't assimilating as they were buddying up with Janeway and her crew.

Her deal with the Borg was that she would be untouched for he next ten years as her ship plodded through Borg Space at regular warp, and there would still be 50 years left to their journey on the other side of Borg controlled territory where sans their agreement with the Borg, her former allies could assimilate Voyager.

Surely if she asked for transwarp coils, or a tow, or even a cube of their own, or the technology to build their own transwarp network, then Janeway could have been home in weeks. She's a terrible negotiator.

Safe passage while the rest of the galaxy continued to be raped by the Borg.

And if Janeway blundered into a planetary assimilation during their special dispensation, would she be honour bound to ignore the assimilation cubes and let billions be inducted into the collective, or would she nix her deal, the singular blessing of staying untouchable for years and years, just to save a few refugees or delay assimilation for a couple hours, surely her permanent safety is more important than a brief, and I do mean brief, possibly seconds long, reprieve for hundreds, if not thousands of consecutive unflappably doomed worlds?

"Sigh"

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Yeah, the Equinox crew. Poor, misguided sods. In my story I have them kicked out of Starfleet -- they don't have the self-defence/defence-of-others angle the Maquis can at least arguably lay claim to. Using sentient beings as fuel is right up there with turning them into soap or lampshades, in my book, and following orders hasn't been a defence to crimes against humanity for decades. Off with their heads, as the Red Queen would say ...

I really don't see how that's worse than helping the Borg beat Species 8472. Not only did this earn the Federation a new, and potentially lethal enemy, but this indirectly did lead to the assimilation of other worlds as witnessed in Hope and Fear.

It is.
8472 claimed they were going to kill EVERYBODY! They were an enemy of the Federation before Voyager ever got there. Even if the Borg had lost, Species 8472 were going to kill all those people mentioned in "Hope & Fear" anyway. Helping the Borg or not helping the Borg, their fate would have been the same.

Ransom and crew knew right from the start that they would be murdering off nearly an entire species just to get them home. Ransom and his crew did what they did to benefit nobody else but themselves. The aliens they were killing never wanted revenge on anybody but the Equinox crew. They weren't out to conquer anybody.

Exactly, Species 8472 was already hostile towards Voyager and its crew without them even becoming intentionally involved. They entered Borg space, trying to get home, and when they found that Borg debries field they had a nice little run-in with these guys. The nucleogenic life forms from Equinox, on the other hand, only became hostile after Ransom and co. chose to use them as fuel to get home.

Janeway was trying to protect the Federation and several other species from a race more dangerous than the Borg. Ransom was slowly destroying a benign species that posed no threat to us if left undisturbed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

in the comics, GI Joe and Cobra (And Spider-Man) teamed up to stop the Deceptions.

Years later, still in the comics, Cobra was retrofitting Megatron into a tank (weird!) after he was all vulnerable and had his his ass kicked. major Bludd was saying lets lobotomize him and take all the alien technology. Cobra Commander (or was it Destro? this sounds more like Destro.) says a deal is a deal, not realizing that they were with earshot of Megatron's "radiotelescopicmicrophones" who later admits, 'I had considered killing you all, because you're basically vermin, but I have to admit that I am impressed with your character because a deal is a deal."

I cannot believe how small Chakotay was to betray the Borg immediately despite having yet 10 years of treacherous Borg space to navigate with 8472 on his heals.

What a cad.

 

[R. Star]

I really don't see how that's worse than helping the Borg beat Species 8472. Not only did this earn the Federation a new, and potentially lethal enemy, but this indirectly did lead to the assimilation of other worlds as witnessed in Hope and Fear.

It is.
8472 claimed they were going to kill EVERYBODY! They were an enemy of the Federation before Voyager ever got there. Even if the Borg had lost, Species 8472 were going to kill all those people mentioned in "Hope & Fear" anyway. Helping the Borg or not helping the Borg, their fate would have been the same.

Ransom and crew knew right from the start that they would be murdering off nearly an entire species just to get them home. Ransom and his crew did what they did to benefit nobody else but themselves. The aliens they were killing never wanted revenge on anybody but the Equinox crew. They weren't out to conquer anybody.

Exactly, Species 8472 was already hostile towards Voyager and its crew without them even becoming intentionally involved. They entered Borg space, trying to get home, and when they found that Borg debries field they had a nice little run-in with these guys. The nucleogenic life forms from Equinox, on the other hand, only became hostile after Ransom and co. chose to use them as fuel to get home.

Janeway was trying to protect the Federation and several other species from a race more dangerous than the Borg. Ransom was slowly destroying a benign species that posed no threat to us if left undisturbed.

Why wouldn't 8472 be hostile towards Voyager? First contact was their away team strolling into their ship as if they had every right. Only then did the 8472 start aggressively coming at them. Entering someone's property is going to provoke a hostile reaction from most people.

The second time they were with the Borg who were very obviously covering for them. Why shouldn't they have assumed they were the enemy then? By that point they were. Janeway didn't even try and negotiate with 8472, she just made assumptions. I always got the impression that 8472 decided to "purge" the galaxy once they realized it wasn't just the Borg coming after them but the Federation too.

 

[Alpha Flyer]

It is.
8472 claimed they were going to kill EVERYBODY! They were an enemy of the Federation before Voyager ever got there. Even if the Borg had lost, Species 8472 were going to kill all those people mentioned in "Hope & Fear" anyway. Helping the Borg or not helping the Borg, their fate would have been the same.

Ransom and crew knew right from the start that they would be murdering off nearly an entire species just to get them home. Ransom and his crew did what they did to benefit nobody else but themselves. The aliens they were killing never wanted revenge on anybody but the Equinox crew. They weren't out to conquer anybody.

Exactly, Species 8472 was already hostile towards Voyager and its crew without them even becoming intentionally involved. They entered Borg space, trying to get home, and when they found that Borg debries field they had a nice little run-in with these guys. The nucleogenic life forms from Equinox, on the other hand, only became hostile after Ransom and co. chose to use them as fuel to get home.

Janeway was trying to protect the Federation and several other species from a race more dangerous than the Borg. Ransom was slowly destroying a benign species that posed no threat to us if left undisturbed.

Why wouldn't 8472 be hostile towards Voyager? First contact was their away team strolling into their ship as if they had every right. Only then did the 8472 start aggressively coming at them. Entering someone's property is going to provoke a hostile reaction from most people.

The second time they were with the Borg who were very obviously covering for them. Why shouldn't they have assumed they were the enemy then? By that point they were. Janeway didn't even try and negotiate with 8472, she just made assumptions. I always got the impression that 8472 decided to "purge" the galaxy once they realized it wasn't just the Borg coming after them but the Federation too.

Agreed. Once Kes understood 8472's message as "kill everything" (or whatever the precise wording was, I've had a crap day and can't be bothered to look it up) it was licence to kill for Janeway -- the inherent right of self-defence (which of course includes defending all those good folks sipping tea in blissful ignorance in the Alpha Quadrant).

Janeway making an alliance with the Borg is like the UK and US making a pact with Stalin to defeat Hitler (keeping on that Nazi theme here). Sometimes you have to shake hands with the devil. And then when the greater enemy is vanquished, you can deal with what comes next. That little deal with Stalin? Ended with the Berlin blockade 1948-49, when those recently vanquished Germans, for reason of geopolitics, suddenly became worth defending ...

Alliances are fragile things.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Have you seen the Void recently?

Janeway heroically makes a mini Federation, after Chakotay and Tuvok make a cogent argument for piracy.

Chakotay actually says "I think we're within our right to kill people and steal off their corpses because we're hungry and it would be difficult and inconvenient not to."

Okay.

Possibly, not those exact same words.

 

[Alpha Flyer]

Have you seen the Void recently?

Janeway heroically makes a mini Federation, after Chakotay and Tuvok make a cogent argument for piracy.

Chakotay actually says "I think we're within our right to kill people and steal off their corpses because we're hungry and it would be difficult and inconvenient not to."

Okay.

Possibly, not those exact same words.

Ew. No. Don't remember that bit... Must watch again. Will get back to you ...

There is something called the law of necessity, which permits you to do all sorts of things in order to preserve life including -- in some rather lurid cases that have entertained law students for decades -- cannibalism.

But one of the key principles of that is proportionality. You are allowed to do what's necessary to preserve life, but only that. and necessity is not a defence for murder, at least not in the common law. (It's okay to eat people who are already dead, as was done by the surviving passengers of a Urugayan air force flight that crashed in the Andes in the 1970s -- presumably the food on the plane was truly awful.)

Killing aliens for fuel is definitely not 'necessary'. The Equinox crew could survive nicely without getting home. And Chakotay ... well ... if he did say that, he is rather wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time!)

Ew. Going to have me some chocolate ice cream now. Yuck.

 

[Guy Gardener]

My mother used to make kahlua icecream for a treat, I have no idea why alcoholic ice cream never took off?

JANEWAY: I might believe that if I hadn't examined your research. These experiments were meticulous and they were brutal. If you'd felt any remorse, you'd never have continued.
RANSOM: Starfleet regulation three, paragraph twelve. In the event of imminent destruction, a Captain is authorised to preserve the lives of his crew by any justifiable means.
JANEWAY: I doubt that protocol covers mass murder.
RANSOM: In my judgment, it did.
JANEWAY: Unacceptable.

 

[exodus]

It is.
8472 claimed they were going to kill EVERYBODY! They were an enemy of the Federation before Voyager ever got there. Even if the Borg had lost, Species 8472 were going to kill all those people mentioned in "Hope & Fear" anyway. Helping the Borg or not helping the Borg, their fate would have been the same.

Ransom and crew knew right from the start that they would be murdering off nearly an entire species just to get them home. Ransom and his crew did what they did to benefit nobody else but themselves. The aliens they were killing never wanted revenge on anybody but the Equinox crew. They weren't out to conquer anybody.

Exactly, Species 8472 was already hostile towards Voyager and its crew without them even becoming intentionally involved. They entered Borg space, trying to get home, and when they found that Borg debries field they had a nice little run-in with these guys. The nucleogenic life forms from Equinox, on the other hand, only became hostile after Ransom and co. chose to use them as fuel to get home.

Janeway was trying to protect the Federation and several other species from a race more dangerous than the Borg. Ransom was slowly destroying a benign species that posed no threat to us if left undisturbed.

Why wouldn't 8472 be hostile towards Voyager? First contact was their away team strolling into their ship as if they had every right. Only then did the 8472 start aggressively coming at them. Entering someone's property is going to provoke a hostile reaction from most people.

The second time they were with the Borg who were very obviously covering for them. Why shouldn't they have assumed they were the enemy then? By that point they were. Janeway didn't even try and negotiate with 8472, she just made assumptions. I always got the impression that 8472 decided to "purge" the galaxy once they realized it wasn't just the Borg coming after them but the Federation too.

Bull.
If Species 8472 were telepathically linked with Kes, then they knew from reading her mind that Voyager and others in the galaxy weren't hostile toward them. Janeway also told Kes to tell them they weren't their enemy and they meant them no harm. 8472 ignored it. Janeway did try and open up negotiations with them. First Contact was made thru Kes, not from entering their ship. It was 8472 that made assumptions, not Janeway.

 

[R. Star]

Exactly, Species 8472 was already hostile towards Voyager and its crew without them even becoming intentionally involved. They entered Borg space, trying to get home, and when they found that Borg debries field they had a nice little run-in with these guys. The nucleogenic life forms from Equinox, on the other hand, only became hostile after Ransom and co. chose to use them as fuel to get home.

Janeway was trying to protect the Federation and several other species from a race more dangerous than the Borg. Ransom was slowly destroying a benign species that posed no threat to us if left undisturbed.

Why wouldn't 8472 be hostile towards Voyager? First contact was their away team strolling into their ship as if they had every right. Only then did the 8472 start aggressively coming at them. Entering someone's property is going to provoke a hostile reaction from most people.

The second time they were with the Borg who were very obviously covering for them. Why shouldn't they have assumed they were the enemy then? By that point they were. Janeway didn't even try and negotiate with 8472, she just made assumptions. I always got the impression that 8472 decided to "purge" the galaxy once they realized it wasn't just the Borg coming after them but the Federation too.

Bull.
If Species 8472 were telepathically linked with Kes, then they knew from reading her mind that Voyager and others in the galaxy weren't hostile toward them. Janeway also told Kes to tell them they weren't their enemy and they meant them no harm. 8472 ignored it. Janeway did try and open up negotiations with them. First Contact was made thru Kes, not from entering their ship. It was 8472 that made assumptions, not Janeway.

Well how can I counter an arguement as eloquent as "bull"?

I'm sorry but I don't call a mental vision of the futre from Kes qualifier for first contact. There's defnitely no evidence they could "read her mind" in return, just talk at best. Voyager's crew definitely did tresspass on their ship before Kes and 8472 started talking.

Is taking a shot at Voyager an overeaction by 8472? Sure. But what the heck did Voyager expect? Most of the species in Trek would shoot someone who goes on their ship uninvited and fire on them as they run away, then attack them again if they were seen in collaboration with their enemies. Even some of the "good" aliens like the Klingons.

8472 didn't have to be an automatic bad guy. Janeway just decided to sieze upon what she wanted, which was passage through Borg space, and screw everyone else who got in the way.

 

[Deckerd]

I saw 8472 as the Krikkit people in Life the Universe and Everything. They lived perfectly happily on their planet for millennia and then one day the fog that enveloped their atmosphere dissipated and they saw the billions of stars in the galaxy. "It'll have to go" was their immediate response.

 

[lurok]

I just saw 8472 as having a beef with the Borg. "They started it". Voyager (and the galaxy) was insignificant collateral damage. Then they went and con-f***d 8472 by having them want to infiltrate SF. Why? Couple of bioships would make quicker work of Earth than Xindi probe. Continuity? Gah...

 

[Guy Gardener]

So we all agree that where they come from, that that's all there is.

Do you know what the literal translation of Barbarian is?

"Non-Greek"

You know that's how the Daleks started?

They'd explored the surrounding 7 galaxies and found nothing.

Being alone can make you peculiar.

meanwhile....

5 genders.

So let me get this straight,

they got men and women.

Then they got something worse then women?

Then got something worse than something worse than women?

Then they got something worse than something worse than something worse than woman?

Men used to go to war to avoid their wives.

Nazi occupied Europe was a valid alternative to wedded bliss.

There would have to be at least 5 wars going on simultaneously for all the genders to run away from each other.

Only...

Unfortunately...

Everyone is 8472 and they can't go to war with their damn selves.

They were all doomed.

Until the Borg.

God bless the Borg.

Release.

Escape into another universe to fight a foe so impotent they don't even raise their fists when it's time to kill or be killed.

It's like God started answering his mail.

I love Mira Sorvino.