So what if the Founders find out about Section 31 creating the virus? It's behavior no dirtier than they'd expect from solids, and certainly nothing they haven't done to others. And having just lost the first war with the major Alpha Quadrant powers, what are they going to do about it if they do find out?
How was the Federation victory legal?
- Thread starter Solarbaby
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I think it a ridiculous notion that Odo was allowed to return to the Great Link with the cure. Surely the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians or even members of Starfleet would have planted a bomb on his runabout.
That and how some EU stuff portrays the Female Founder as being imprisoned rather than executed. She wouldn't just be a prisoner of the Federation, and there's no way that the other powers would have settled for anything less than the death penalty.
The executors would have to engage in some subterfuge, though, to keep the Jem'Hadar on Alpha from finding out about the deed.
I mean, there's no way the Jem'Hadar could have been disarmed as part of the surrender or cease-fire or whatnot. That's not something the Jem'Hadar would do. And while they are short-lived, the Alpha powers would still have to wait for a decade or three before they could be sure that every last of them was either dead or too infirm to fight. And even then they couldn't rule out secret breeding facilities for fresh troops. The most problematic thing about the Jem'Hadar forces on Alpha is that they were self-sufficient during the war... And thus could rise again easily enough.
Killing Odo or otherwise preventing him from saving the Link could probably be hidden with some hope of success. The Alphans could always say that the Prophets work in mysterious ways and this is why there can be no confirmation of successful curing of the Link across the wormhole. But no such excuse could be made for the sudden lack of communications between the Female Founder and her remaining troops. And the Founder would have been in an excellent position to leave "final orders" to the Jem'Hadar in case of her suspected or verified death.
In the long term, the Alphans would still have to concern themselves with the upcoming second war, regardless of whether they managed to kill all the Founders. The fleets on their way from Gamma would have to be self-sustaining, constantly breeding new fanatical Jem'Hadar - quite possibly made more fanatical if a couple of Founders were accompanying them and died of the disease en route.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, there's no way the Jem'Hadar could have been disarmed as part of the surrender or cease-fire or whatnot. That's not something the Jem'Hadar would do. And while they are short-lived, the Alpha powers would still have to wait for a decade or three before they could be sure that every last of them was either dead or too infirm to fight. And even then they couldn't rule out secret breeding facilities for fresh troops. The most problematic thing about the Jem'Hadar forces on Alpha is that they were self-sufficient during the war... And thus could rise again easily enough.
Killing Odo or otherwise preventing him from saving the Link could probably be hidden with some hope of success. The Alphans could always say that the Prophets work in mysterious ways and this is why there can be no confirmation of successful curing of the Link across the wormhole. But no such excuse could be made for the sudden lack of communications between the Female Founder and her remaining troops. And the Founder would have been in an excellent position to leave "final orders" to the Jem'Hadar in case of her suspected or verified death.
In the long term, the Alphans would still have to concern themselves with the upcoming second war, regardless of whether they managed to kill all the Founders. The fleets on their way from Gamma would have to be self-sustaining, constantly breeding new fanatical Jem'Hadar - quite possibly made more fanatical if a couple of Founders were accompanying them and died of the disease en route.
Timo Saloniemi
^Timo, I seriously doubt that the Female Founder was given much of a line of communication to the Great Link beyond her "one phone call." The Jem'Hadar and the Vorta would have to have known that she was going to be executed.
You operate on the assumption that the Jem'Hadar would be a workable force without the Founders. The Jem'Hadar hate the Vorta, and have been shown to kill them on a whim. They are loyal only to the Founders. Even if the Vorta were capable of supplying Ketracel White, I can't imagine that the Jem'Hadar would suffer them for too long.
Without the Vorta, they wouldn't have a supply of Ketracel White. They couldn't coerce enough people to make it for them, assuming anyone else has the knowledge, besides apparently the Sona.
You operate on the assumption that the Jem'Hadar would be a workable force without the Founders. The Jem'Hadar hate the Vorta, and have been shown to kill them on a whim. They are loyal only to the Founders. Even if the Vorta were capable of supplying Ketracel White, I can't imagine that the Jem'Hadar would suffer them for too long.
Without the Vorta, they wouldn't have a supply of Ketracel White. They couldn't coerce enough people to make it for them, assuming anyone else has the knowledge, besides apparently the Sona.
Which is exactly why the Federation would have to constantly reassure them that this has not happened yet.
Workable is not a requirement. Deadly is the only thing that matters. Inefficient and ill-advised suicide attacks would still be more than the Alpha powers could bear.
...And this would be a huge humanitarian problem for the Federation. Unless they began supplying the Jem'Hadar with the substance somehow, they'd be actively murdering the lot. So that's another issue where the Alphans would have to appease the remaining Dominion forces if they hope to avoid a final sally.
Timo Saloniemi
Except this isn't the case. The Founders ability to directly control the Jem'Hadar is, as Weyoun said, "Overstated." Remember those rebel Jem'Hadar in Hippocratic Oath and To the Death for example? Otherwise why else would they need the white to ensure loyalty? Heck even Odo couldn't keep that Jem'Hadar baby in line.
Though to the previous conversation, the Federation penal system is way too nice to for capital punishment. This is the same system that gave Kassidy, a Maquis smuggler less than a year, Garak, who tried to genocide the Founders and start a war, six months, and was willing to pardon Eddington, who had a long rap sheet topped with treason and using biogenic weapons, for doing them a favor.
And there wouldn't be any Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant. The Alpha Jem'Hadar would have gone back to the Gamma Quadrant the same way Odo did... through the wormhole. So one would assume that the Prophet's Hand of God has been rescinded in that case. Though it's something for them to think about if they ever decide to invade again.
I've said it at least once in this thread and multiple times on the board, but it's not just the Feds who own the FF. The Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians all have a legitimate shot at her. Not a chance that the Feds would say "thanks for all the help, but we're so good and you're so evil that we won't hand over our mutual enemy to you." Consider that she's going to live for probably thousands of years more, centuries at least, and it would be in the Federation's best interest to not have to care for her until the heat death of the universe.
I doubt very much the Federation would hand the FF over to the Klingons or Romulans just to be executed. They're too nice for that and I'm sure a term of the surrender would've been "Plz don't kill me!"
As for the Cardassians? No. They don't "have a shot at her." They gave that up when they joined the Dominion. Damar's rebellion didn't represent a legitimate government or ally, and the rest of the Cardassians didn't bother switching sides until the last minute. Garak might have had a shot at her literally, but he even he was too nice not to take it.
She could be imprisoned under joint custody of the three powers. Khitomer would be an ironic place to do that, being it's near all three borders.
What? Why kill her just because she's long-lived? It's not as if it is that resource-intensive to imprison her for decades or even centuries.
As for the Klingons and Romulans, I can only imagine that the UFP negotiated with them to ensure the female Founder's imprisonment rather than execution, and that they both managed to get something better and more important to them than just the death of an individual.
And maybe the surrender was conditional on the female Founder's imprisonment by the Federation (I've not seen the last episodes of DS9 in some time). The Klingons might've preferred a longer fight with the Dominion, but the Romulans can see reason when it bites them in the ass, and the Federation would prefer to minimize bloodshed. Given the opportunity to cease hostilities for the cost of imprisonment rather than execution, I can imagine the Klingons would be over-ruled by the other two Alliance members.
I don't think the Cardassians have much say in the matter. Sure, there was a rebellion against her, but the Cardassian rebellion wasn't the legitimate government at the time, and the Cardassian homeworld was devastated, so they had much bigger problems to deal with than the trial of the female Founder.
But, hey, maybe the deal was to imprison the female Founder in the UFP for a century or two, then hand her over to the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians next for torture then execution.
As for the Klingons and Romulans, I can only imagine that the UFP negotiated with them to ensure the female Founder's imprisonment rather than execution, and that they both managed to get something better and more important to them than just the death of an individual.
And maybe the surrender was conditional on the female Founder's imprisonment by the Federation (I've not seen the last episodes of DS9 in some time). The Klingons might've preferred a longer fight with the Dominion, but the Romulans can see reason when it bites them in the ass, and the Federation would prefer to minimize bloodshed. Given the opportunity to cease hostilities for the cost of imprisonment rather than execution, I can imagine the Klingons would be over-ruled by the other two Alliance members.
I don't think the Cardassians have much say in the matter. Sure, there was a rebellion against her, but the Cardassian rebellion wasn't the legitimate government at the time, and the Cardassian homeworld was devastated, so they had much bigger problems to deal with than the trial of the female Founder.
But, hey, maybe the deal was to imprison the female Founder in the UFP for a century or two, then hand her over to the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians next for torture then execution.
Jem'Hadar aside, there is the rest of the Dominion with it's massive fleet on the other side of the wormhole. Who the Federation cannot count on the Prophets to stop. If the FF is killed, that would likely void the peace treaty and they invade again.
Arguably, since the peace treaty was signed aboard a Federation-controlled installation, some sort of a position of power could be assumed for the UFP. But there were Klingons and Romulans present as well, and those had a history of using the station, too. So the perceived position of power might be slight, and custody of the prisoner could be hotly contested.
Then again, the FF might well choose whom to surrender to. She still holds plenty of trump cards, after all. Perhaps she ordered herself to be taken to a UFP prison, "Or else"?
Timo Saloniemi
Then again, the FF might well choose whom to surrender to. She still holds plenty of trump cards, after all. Perhaps she ordered herself to be taken to a UFP prison, "Or else"?
Timo Saloniemi
I think that all this back and forth debate/arguing may have dredged up the real reason for the FF to not be executed.
Several people have mentioned little pieces of the puzzle: the UFP generally doesn't use capital punishment. The Klingons and Romulans clearly have no problem with capital punishment, and would want her executed for her crimes. The FF herself would no doubt prefer not to be executed, and would want to simply be imprisoned by the Federation. But she is the prisoner of all three powers as a POW, technically, and only agreed to become a prisoner in exchange for Odo going through the wormhole to cure the Link. Meanwhile, the Jem'Hadar certainly wouldn't react well to her death, or to the disease in the Link being allowed to continue... though they need white to survive, which is provided by the Vorta. Speaking of the Vorta, they are probably all going back through the wormhole after the papers are all signed and everything... back to the GQ, where the rest of the Dominion resides. The rest of the Dominion, and the rest of their Jem'Hadar + battle fleet. They know that together, the Feds, Klingons, AND Romulans could keep them at bay... at the same time, all those AQ powers know, in turn, that though they could prevent the GQ Dominion forces from completely overwhelming the entire AQ if necessary, it would be EXTREMELY bloody and extremely costly. Then there's the Prophets, who are basically a completely unpredictable wildcard.
Put ALL this together, and what do you have? A balance of power. A stalemate.
No one will execute the FF, because it would upset the balance. This rather precise arrangement is a compromise that is in the best interests of EVERY power involved in this thing to maintain.
Several people have mentioned little pieces of the puzzle: the UFP generally doesn't use capital punishment. The Klingons and Romulans clearly have no problem with capital punishment, and would want her executed for her crimes. The FF herself would no doubt prefer not to be executed, and would want to simply be imprisoned by the Federation. But she is the prisoner of all three powers as a POW, technically, and only agreed to become a prisoner in exchange for Odo going through the wormhole to cure the Link. Meanwhile, the Jem'Hadar certainly wouldn't react well to her death, or to the disease in the Link being allowed to continue... though they need white to survive, which is provided by the Vorta. Speaking of the Vorta, they are probably all going back through the wormhole after the papers are all signed and everything... back to the GQ, where the rest of the Dominion resides. The rest of the Dominion, and the rest of their Jem'Hadar + battle fleet. They know that together, the Feds, Klingons, AND Romulans could keep them at bay... at the same time, all those AQ powers know, in turn, that though they could prevent the GQ Dominion forces from completely overwhelming the entire AQ if necessary, it would be EXTREMELY bloody and extremely costly. Then there's the Prophets, who are basically a completely unpredictable wildcard.
Put ALL this together, and what do you have? A balance of power. A stalemate.
No one will execute the FF, because it would upset the balance. This rather precise arrangement is a compromise that is in the best interests of EVERY power involved in this thing to maintain.
...Although one is tempted to ask, what crimes?
Klingons hardly sound like the sort of people to consider war a crime. It doesn't sound as if the Dominion "personally" wronged the Empire, either: the Founder impersonators of Klingon personnel are dead by Klingon hand, and this particular Founder is not known to have engaged in such potentially dishonorable subterfuge.
Romulans might be more likely to throw the book at the enemy, any enemy. But they in turn appear to be all about procedure and precedent, "Rights of Statement" and all that. What would the charge against the Founder be, starting of war? Technically, Sisko started it.
Timo Saloniemi
...Well...they could always charge the FF for the assassination of Vreenak, who was on a diplomatic mission from the Dominion. I'm pretty sure assassinating a Romulan senator on a diplomatic mission is a huge crime.
Seeing how high ranking Starfleet officers deal with that would be amazing television
Since said senator was an opponent of the war, and Romulus did go to war, I don't see many in the postwar Star Empire speaking on behalf of the late senator and surviving... "Good riddance!" would probably be the politically correct sentiment.
Admittedly, the concept holds dramatic potential.
Timo Saloniemi
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