In The Library... Does He Look Young Yet Then?

[Guy Gardener]

It's been a long road since those terribly simple days.

You have to laugh when he says "No, I'm not, I'm really not."

The Last of the Time Lords thinks that he's the Oncoming Storm, but really... He's just darling.

 

[shivkala]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Time Lords can sense each other, like the immortals in Highlander. Somehow, they've got to be able to keep track of each other through various regenerations. I mean, how awkward is it for us to run into someone we haven't seen in a while (5, 10 years or so)? And the dreaded, "You don't remember me, do you?" Maybe they got a haircut, dyed their hair, gained/lost weight, etc. but how much have they changed?

Now imagine running into another Time Lord you haven't seen in centuries and who has a completely different body!

Granted, I'm not up on my Who prior to nuWho, but I'm sure this was dealt with somehow with Romana or the Master.

Anyway, my point is, maybe Time Lords have a way of sensing how old other Time Lords are. River, being a de-facto Time Lord may have been able to "sense" that the Doctor was younger, hence her comment. In "The Impossible Astronaut," she doesn't bat an eye that the Doctor when it's revealed he's 400 years older than the last time she saw him. So that leads me to believe she expects the Doctor to be much older than he was in the Library, at least by a few centuries.

And I was just thinking that "The Oncoming Storm" isn't that great of a nickname. Sure it sounds bad-ass, but living here in Florida, when you hear of an oncoming storm, you prepare or get out of the way. Yeah, it does imply a force of nature, but more one that you have plenty of warning about.

I'd prefer to the Tornado, the Flash Flood, or "What the Hell Was That?" to The Oncoming Storm. Those imply (a) lots of destruction and more importantly (b) you never saw it coming.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oncoming storm = Dalek poetry = A clever lie.

River meant that he looked emotionally young, as yet unburdened by a million barrels of blood, stress and decisions that would turn a lesser mans hair white, not "physically older".

Yes, in a fourth doctor story when he goes back to Gallifrey, another timelord says "have you had some work done?" and the "I'd just know" line you're thinking about is when Jack, the Doctor and Martha are having their war counsel in an abandoned factory trying to figure out how they got so screwed.

 

[shivkala]

Ah, that's right. Still, that line could be chalked up to Tennant's Doctor being Tennant's Doctor. Also, it could be more of a guilt thing than a real "Time Lords can sense each other thing." As in, "I carry the guilt from destroying my whole race, I'd know if any still lived." He showed no indication of knowing about Harold Saxon in "The Runaway Bride", "Smith and Jones", "Lazarus," or the beginning of "The Sound of Drums" even though Saxon was active during all those episodes. Didn't the Doctor use the "You've had some work done" line in reference to Jack in "Utopia"?

The funny thing is that, Eccleston on, the Doctor was burdened by a million barrels of blood, stress, and decisions, that would turn a lesser man's hair white because of the end of the Time War. Of them all, Smith seems to carry that off the best and seems the least burdened.

I wonder if the Daleks have weatherdaleks, "To-day's wea-ther calls for a slight chance of Doc-tor. Bring your exter-min-a-tor with you to-day."

 

[Cutter John]

Of them all, Smith seems to carry that off the best and seems the least burdened.

Well, I suspect that after the events of The End of Time, he pretty much considers the war and its aftermath well and truly over. And that he now fee's justified in what he did to Gallifrey.

Otoh, I rather like the fannish theory that Elevens goofiness and bumbling are his way of hiding his inner pain and termoil.

 

[RoJoHen]

Otoh, I rather like the fannish theory that Elevens goofiness and bumbling are his way of hiding his inner pain and termoil.

I have no doubt of this. Matt Smith manages to be the most terrifying and depressing Doctor I've seen even though he's a total goofball.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

He showed no indication of knowing about Harold Saxon in "The Runaway Bride", "Smith and Jones", "Lazarus," or the beginning of "The Sound of Drums" even though Saxon was active during all those episodes.

Good point about "The Runaway Bride," "Smith & Jones," & "The Lazarus Experiment." I'm not so sure about "The Sound of Drums" though. (I need to watch it again.) While I can see how he wouldn't have been able to identify Harold Saxon without actually meeting the man, you'd think that he would have at least been able to sense that there was another Time Lord alive in the universe, perhaps even being able to pinpoint his location to Earth.

But we don't know the exact timey-wimey nature of the Doctor's telepathy that makes him aware of other Time Lords. Perhaps, when the Doctor was on Earth in those earlier episodes, he couldn't sense the Master yet because their timelines hadn't yet synchronized. It wouldn't be until the Doctor met Professor Yana in the future that they would have synced up. Furthermore, if the Doctor had sensed the Master in the earlier episodes and acted on that knowledge, it most likely would have altered the timeline so that the Doctor would have never traveled into the future and met Professor Yana, Professor Yana would have never realized that he was really the Master, and the Master would have never been able to steal the TARDIS and travel back to present day Earth. (Sounds like a pretty hideous paradox to me.)

I was just thinking that "The Oncoming Storm" isn't that great of a nickname. Sure it sounds bad-ass, but living here in Florida, when you hear of an oncoming storm, you prepare or get out of the way. Yeah, it does imply a force of nature, but more one that you have plenty of warning about.

I'd prefer to the Tornado, the Flash Flood, or "What the Hell Was That?" to The Oncoming Storm. Those imply (a) lots of destruction and more importantly (b) you never saw it coming.

"Or 'Get off this planet.' Though, strictly speaking, that probably isn't a name."

 

[intrinsical]

Or simply, The Master's plan was not ready so he figured out a way to block The Doctor from sensing him. Even in "The Sound of Drums" The Doctor did not immediately sense The Master's presence.

 

[DS9Continuing]

It was explicitly stated in "The Sound of Drums" (or at least the Doctor surmised) that the effect of the Archangel Network was what had kept him from "feeling" the Master's presence during previous episodes. That it had had the double effect of subtly hypnotizing the public into supporting Saxon while hiding the fact of who and what he was, at least the latter half of which also affected the Doctor as much as the humans. That was said outright.

.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's been far too long since I've seen those episodes...

But I was thinking about how the telepathic circuits on the TARDIS use a Time Lord brain to filter and network ny translation issues the immediate population might be having within miles and miles... Now unless the Doctor firewalls his TARDIS, you'd think that his TARDIS would network with as many Timelord brains as it can to increase it's language database and perhaps range.

 

[Photoman15]

Anyway, my point is, maybe Time Lords have a way of sensing how old other Time Lords are. River, being a de-facto Time Lord may have been able to "sense" that the Doctor was younger, hence her comment. In "The Impossible Astronaut," she doesn't bat an eye that the Doctor when it's revealed he's 400 years older than the last time she saw him. So that leads me to believe she expects the Doctor to be much older than he was in the Library, at least by a few centuries.

Then why didn't the Doctor know River was a (pseudo) Timelord?

 

[Skellington]

Seven knew exactly how old the Rani was, and prior to LOTTL it did seem that Time Lords were properly synced up, ie there was no real question of them ageing at a different relative rate. Drax, for instance, puts the time since he's last seen the Doctor (or the time since they were at the academy, can't recall which) at about 450 years and seems to assume that the figure would be similar for both of them.

Possibly they use a local Wi-Fi or telepathic field to obtain information, or employ touch telepathy. It's feasible, though, that some kind of ocular technology could be used to send / receive information, hence River's comment about the Doctor's eyes. It does seem a little silly for her to say - based on Ten's appearance - that she's never seen him this young. Tennant has eleven years on Smith.

Apparent real-life reason: It had not yet been established that Tennant would be leaving soon.

Also, it's been speculated that Ten's regeneration was one of those time-can-be-rewritten things. Maybe without the Time Lords he'd have continued for several decades. This seems redundant given Eleven's apparent lack of ageing over nearly two hundred years, though.

ETA: If "Lord Of Time" doesn't intimidate someone, then a name based on the weather probably isn't going to. Stormageddon, of course, would be the exception. Maybe he's named after the Doctor.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He ages. He just doesn't age in the same direction all the time. He's in control, but it's still going to take him ten years to become ten years older or ten years younger and it must stress the body a lot to keep yoyoing like that.

 

[shivkala]

Anyway, my point is, maybe Time Lords have a way of sensing how old other Time Lords are. River, being a de-facto Time Lord may have been able to "sense" that the Doctor was younger, hence her comment. In "The Impossible Astronaut," she doesn't bat an eye that the Doctor when it's revealed he's 400 years older than the last time she saw him. So that leads me to believe she expects the Doctor to be much older than he was in the Library, at least by a few centuries.

Then why didn't the Doctor know River was a (pseudo) Timelord?

Maybe they have to be a "real" Time Lord? Or, maybe as Scrawny71 it has more to do with a conscious network developed by the Time Lords.

Did Eight sense the Master in the TV movie? I can't remember...

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Sometimes Time Lords can sense each other, sometimes they don't. If you're looking for consistency in Doctor Who, you're bond to be disappointed.

 

[Sindatur]

Seven knew exactly how old the Rani was, and prior to LOTTL it did seem that Time Lords were properly synced up, ie there was no real question of them ageing at a different relative rate. Drax, for instance, puts the time since he's last seen the Doctor (or the time since they were at the academy, can't recall which) at about 450 years and seems to assume that the figure would be similar for both of them.

Possibly they use a local Wi-Fi or telepathic field to obtain information, or employ touch telepathy. It's feasible, though, that some kind of ocular technology could be used to send / receive information, hence River's comment about the Doctor's eyes. It does seem a little silly for her to say - based on Ten's appearance - that she's never seen him this young. Tennant has eleven years on Smith.

Apparent real-life reason: It had not yet been established that Tennant would be leaving soon.

Also, it's been speculated that Ten's regeneration was one of those time-can-be-rewritten things. Maybe without the Time Lords he'd have continued for several decades. This seems redundant given Eleven's apparent lack of ageing over nearly two hundred years, though.

ETA: If "Lord Of Time" doesn't intimidate someone, then a name based on the weather probably isn't going to. Stormageddon, of course, would be the exception. Maybe he's named after the Doctor.

As you say, it's in the eyes. at the time of the Library Meeting, The Doctor was well healed from the Time War, because of his time with Rose, the weight on his soul had lifted. Smith is fresh off killing the Time Lords again, and all the things Smith has done, he is portraying an older Soul than Tennant. Tennant in the Library, would look more innocent in the eyes as a window to his soul.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It's feasible, though, that some kind of ocular technology could be used to send / receive information, hence River's comment about the Doctor's eyes. It does seem a little silly for her to say - based on Ten's appearance - that she's never seen him this young. Tennant has eleven years on Smith.

Apparent real-life reason: It had not yet been established that Tennant would be leaving soon.

I mostly just chalk it up to poetic license. Yes, IRL, Tennant is chronologically older than Smith. But River knows all about Time Lords and regeneration. And, presumably, she knows the order of each of the Doctor's incarnations.

But then, there's already an inconsistency. When she first meets him in "Silence in the Library," she quickly surmises that this is very early for him. But she also asks him if they've done the crash of the Byzantium yet. That was the 11th Doctor's first encounter with her in "The Time of Angels"/"Flesh & Stone." Why would she ask a clearly pre-11th Doctor if he's done an 11th Doctor adventure yet? (However, the Picnic at Asgard that she refers to could certainly be an unseen 10th Doctor adventure set some time between "Journey's End" & "The End of Time.")

As for Tennant's impending departure, I thought that that was at least a thought while they were doing Season 4. In "Planet of the Ood," they already make some cryptic "You're song will end soon" comments.

 

[RoJoHen]

It's possible that she's had so many adventures with the Doctor that she can't remember exactly which Doctor was with her for some of them, though you'd think she'd remember Amy being with them on the Byzantium and therefore know that it was Smith.

Honestly, though, Doctor Who is probably the only show I can watch where continuity errors like that don't bother me at all. I'm too busy having fun to worry about them. Plus, wibbly-wobbly timey-whimey...time can be re-written...all that stuff can be thrown around to explain inconsistencies.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It's possible that she's had so many adventures with the Doctor that she can't remember exactly which Doctor was with her for some of them, though you'd think she'd remember Amy being with them on the Byzantium and therefore know that it was Smith.

Good point. I mean, in "The Impossible Astronaut," the Doctor had to look up whether or not he had done Jim the Fish yet, even though he already had and subsequently remembered.

And then there are times where I've done stuff with a particular group of friends but can't remember exactly who was & wasn't there. (In particular, my friend Charissa was a relatively new addition to our group, but blended in so well with the rest of us that I would often forget that she wasn't there yet when I was remembering stuff the rest of us had done.)