I can only get one: Xenogears v FFVIII v Chrono Chross

[Saito S]

Whoohoo! Ryu and I aren't the only crazies!

I am a bit baffled sometimes by how much praise the game gets... but eh, everyone likes what they like.

Yup. As far as turn-based JRPGs go, CC is still my all-time favorite in terms of combat. It is just so much fun.

But the story is problematic. Like others have said, if you really invest the time into it, it pays-off in the long run. Like about half-way through your third or fourth run all the pieces fall into place and it's MIND = BLOWN. But multiple plays shouldn't be a requisite for a game.

Yeah, as I said, this is why I've always been hesitant to go back and play all the way through it. I'm afraid that I'll feel like I NEED to play through more than once, knowing that I'll get a lot more out of it if I do... but I barely have enough time for everything that I've got going on, including gaming, as it is.

Sadly though, I still think FFVIII is the best of the three PSX FinFans.

Really the only game of the era that's worthy of the praise people tend to attribute to the franchise is FFT and that's really an Atlus game.

I dunno, I do still like FFVII... probably a bit more than I like VIII, though that's a close call. What I can say for certain, however, is that FFIX was awful, and neither VII nor VIII are nearly as good as the SNES FFs.

I mean, the successfully pigeonholed an Elizabethan tragedy into a video game with a fantasy setting. Who does that?

I never thought about it quite like that, but that's a good way to put it!

Unfortunately, if Shakespeare isn't your bag and you don't like overly-involved turn based tactics games, it's not going to do much for you.

In my case, I got partyway into the game, then my save was accidentally deleted. I really didn't feel like starting over, it's just too difficult and long for that. It's definitely a well-done game, though I found the 5-person limit (less with guest characters!) really irritating and tactically stifling after playing the unsurprisingly similar Tactics Ogre.

I don't know, I'd put XG and CCs soundtracks head and shoulders about FFVIII.

Huh, that's one area where I think FF has never really fallen down. Even IX, which I dislike for the most part, still had a good OST, I thought.

Well, I should say, FF music composed by Uematsu has never really fallen down. Not a fan of any FF soundtrack from XI and beyond.

And, yes, on a console XG is really ugly. Though, actually, if you play it on an emulator with all the proper fixes, it's actually quite nice looking.

Huh, interesting, never knew that was the case. I've played several SNES and arcade games via emulation, but not PS1 games.

Oh, and Clegg, I have to mention that your avatar is one of the most adorable things I've ever seen.

FFT is an odd game in that I find it every bit as infuriating as I do satisfying and fascinating. I think the words "Dorter Trade City" will always make me froth a little, for example. I love it, and I push it upon anyone who'll listen, and it has one of the best narratives in any RPG I've played, and the combat is varied and highly customizable. I thoroughly hate chocobos after playing it, however.

Ah yes, I think FFT might be just as famous for its insanely fearsome chocobos as it is for the narrative.

 

[Parrots_United]

I may reconsider. I haven't made my decision yet, but with this recent skepticism about Xenogears, I've been reading more reviews to make a worthwhile decision. I may also go with CC just because it would be nice to see a continuation of the Chrono universe.

If you really want to play a JRPG will a solid focus on story, buy Suiko II.

It'll probably cost you more than all three of those combined, but do it anyway. You'll thank me later.

Unfortunately, ATM, I don't really feel like paying $600 for a game. One day I'll play it though, and I thank you for that suggestion. I have heard many people praise that game.

 

[Saito S]

I may reconsider. I haven't made my decision yet, but with this recent skepticism about Xenogears, I've been reading more reviews to make a worthwhile decision. I may also go with CC just because it would be nice to see a continuation of the Chrono universe.

Yeah, reading up on it some more might be your best bet. Unfortunately, it's kind of a dice roll. You've heard from several people in this thread who didn't care for it, and at least one person also in this thread who thought it was a masterpiece. And the line between those two opinions is ALL down to the story. You might love it, you might hate it, and there isn't any way to know for certain without playing fairly far into it yourself.

If you really want to play a JRPG will a solid focus on story, buy Suiko II.

It'll probably cost you more than all three of those combined, but do it anyway. You'll thank me later.

Unfortunately, ATM, I don't really feel like paying $600 for a game. One day I'll play it though, and I thank you for that suggestion. I have heard many people praise that game.

Holy spork splitter, over 100 for used! Well, I can certainly understand not wanting to spend THAT kind of money, I don't think I would either.

I never played through II myself, though I did enjoy the original Suikoden. But for those prices, if I ever do want to play it... we were talking about PS1 emulation a moment ago, I believe?

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Well, this is the only place I've been to in fourteen years whereby I've been so outnumbered on the matter of Xenogears, so I'll say that and leave the matter in your hands. I'm pretty isolated here, which I'm really not accustomed to with this game! Oh well.

Don't play CC if you're looking for a continuation of CT, though. It's a horrible sequel, flinging your love for CT's cast out the window in favor of something else entirely. It's still fun, and as more of a standalone title it's even good. But if you liked how things ended with CT, you'll need to prepare for a rather sobering note.

FFT would be my vote if you dash Gears from the running. It has great gameplay and a story second only to Gears in this list.

If you'd like to read my review of Xenogears, btw - and I would understand if you didn't - check out Jeff Zero's review on GameFAQs. I put a lot of thought into that thing.

If you'd like a lengthy list of diversely-opinionated reviews in general, really, go there. One famous anti-Xenogears review by Psycho Penguin maintains that the game ought to have just been a book instead. I disagree, but the reasoning is sound enough.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Suikoden II's plot is great, but really, not in the same league. Excellent antagonist, though, but Xenogears and FFT have amazing sets of villains.

Oh, and VII is the best of the PSX trilogy. For a long time now, it's become the "jaded star" - immensely popular, but often complained-about for its immense popularity by those who feel it doesn't deserve it. There are valid points against it, but its scope is relatively grand, its cast is rock-solid and its journey is memorable. IMO, IMO.

IX is also great. Both are a fair shake better than VIII, I say, though VIII is certainly playable. It has a strong atmospheric worth backed by a nice soundtrack.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

FFT isn't "really an Atlus game"; Atlus only localized Tactics Ogre. Quest created TO. Atlus didn't work on it.

On the opposite end of this particular spectrum, I firmly believe the PSX era is worthy of all its praise, and the PS2 JRPG era is much weaker.

Regarding XG's and CC's OSTs, their composer, Yasunori Mitsuda, is the only video game musician I would pin above Uematsu. Those two worked together on CT's, by the by.

 

[CorporalClegg]

It's a horrible sequel.

Quite the contrary. It is in fact the perfect conceptual sequel to CT: The story stands on its own, but the nuance and theme strike right at the core.

When your realize that, that's when MIND = BLOWN.

If you'd like a lengthy list of diversely-opinionated reviews in general, really, go there.

Can't really agree. For game help, it's a great place to look. But as far as credible opinions go, it's maintained by a myopic cabal that's completely out of touch with reality.

There are valid points against it, but its scope is relatively grand, its cast is rock-solid and its journey is memorable.

This is where you've completely lost me. It is only "immensely popular" with in certain circles (see above). In the game community as a whole, it's sort of become a cute novelty joke.

In fact, it really isn't that popular historically. And it certainly doesn't account for the fact that it (after inflation adjustment) still has the largest advertisement campaign in history. The game had two Superbowl commercials and a pre movie trailer spot back when videogame companies just didn't do that. Not to mention the ads that ran constantly on several different networks.

What you call a grand scope, I call puerile nonsense that has a lot in common with emo teenage poetry. What you call a grand cast, I call a haphazardly assembled mob of offensive stereotypes. And what you call a memorable journey, I call the most cumbersome use of rails in any game of the era.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Chrono Cross...

Spoiler: Chrono Cross

...is a horrible sequel because of what it chooses to do with its predecessor's cast. Slaying Luca and Robo in such a fashion. Having Guardia fall to enemies which will forever be unknown, just a few years after Crono's gang worked so hard to save the world. An isolated event with one of the characters would have been fittingly tragic; kicking them all in the face is just overblown.

Haha, I disagree about the reviews. The user base isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. I wouldn't have remained there for ten years if it were. There are plenty of wackjobs -- really, TrekBBS is a nice little rarity in its... relative normalcy -- but there are plenty of good, kindhearted, informative people who have penned those reviews over the years.

And FFVII is definitely not a "cute novelty joke" in the game community on the whole. Websites such as Joystiq, Kotaku, Gamespot, IGN and so forth would not continue reminding everyone that Square might just remake the game someday if it weren't a huge success. That's how these things work -- they write articles based on what will "sell" in the mind of the average gamer. And those are entirely too common to be excused as a cute little niche.

And it is quite popular historically. It sold the fundamental idea of the JRPG to the West. There were relatively successful JRPGs overseas before it, but the success of Final Fantasy VII inspired developers like Sony to, explicitly, do what it takes to rip it off, to make money off of it in the JRPG-enthusiastic Western community. That was effectively their exact edict on the making of The Legend of Dragoon, for example.

It didn't sell like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3. But then, it didn't have to, especially in 1997, when blockbusters in gaming didn't quite mean the same number of sales. It left a significant impact, and pushed forward the localization of a plethora of JRPGs for several years thereafter, until the general gaming public said enough was enough for now.

And as for the last part, well, whatever. To each their own, of course.

I'm sorry you didn't like it, but its impact is real. I might loathe Kingdom Hearts, but I can't deny it sold well and got a whole bunch more people into the genre.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I'd really hoped this wouldn't turn into a pro-FFVII, anti-FFVII topic. There are far too many of those on the internet, and not just on websites like GameFAQs.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Man, engaging in Xenosaga and finding Xenogears to be pretentious garbage... it's the gaming equivalent of someone telling me they can't get enough DS9 so they stopped watching Days of Our Lives.

Fixed that for you. I have no problem with you personally or you liking it, but the constant gushing from apparently everyone tends to set me off at this point, I guess. No hard feelings or anything, though.

And I hope you enjoy it in any event, Parrots_United. While I feel how I feel, it is what it is, and if you're going to play it, better that you get something positive out of it.

I missed this until now, sorry. I've been using my cell phone for several of these posts.

Anyway, sure. That's how I am with plenty of things. The gushing gets on my nerves. I can't tell you how many times I've sighed heavily, reading about people saying, "who cares if Matsuno ever comes back to pen another FF? Who cares if Hiroyuki Itou is working on anything? What we need is KH3, because that series is so much better than FF."

It gets old.

 

[RyuRoots]

No worries. I'm just opinionated, and many things about many fandoms do get old. I suppose that's why, outside of TrekBBS and occasional laughing at BSN and Gamefaqs, I tend to stay out of them. Which sort of brings me to my next point, which is...

Gamefaqs really, really IS that bad, Jeff. I'm sure there ARE some good people there, but Gamefaqs is by and large a cesspool as far as the community is concerned.

There's more, as an RPG enthusiast, I feel like I want to reply to, but there's a lot of text and I need to make a sandwich real bad.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Admittedly, it might be the fact that I've withdrawn considerably from most of GameFAQs. It's still my primary e-residence, but one of its social boards, a handful of ancient JRPG boards and the Xenogears Social Board -- which can barely be mentioned, as it gets approximately six posts a month -- are where I can be found on there.

I... sampled the FFXIII board in the years leading up to that game's release, and I decided I didn't want anything to do with those people. So yeah, I may have to rescind that claim. But there are definitely cool people in pockets. Mounting a resistance, you might say! Except they don't, because that'd be a colossal waste of time.

It's funny that you should mention "the occasional laughing at BSN and GameFAQs", because those are the two forums I spend the most time on outside of TrekBBS. I mostly just laugh at BSN, though, myself. I'm JeffZero there. I can't stand that site's endless whining.

 

[RyuRoots]

Even for that BSN has gotten kind of dull though, lately. It's the equivalent of if the TNG board here had a 1 to 10 ratio of topics that aren't about Nemesis to topics that are. I'm hoping it calm down more as time goes on, but...with boards, you can never tell.

For what it's worth, I'm glad you found bastions of sanity on Gamefaqs. The Steambot Chronicles ones weren't so bad before they were dead, IIRC, but I didn't hang around them as a regular even though I poked my head in from time to time.

 

[Skywalker]

BSN will settle down eventually. I'm hoping we'll start getting some solid info on Dragon Age III soon so that the posters' focus will go back to that. Until then, the ME3 forums are going to remain a den of craziness.

As for the topic, I prefer FFVIII over Chrono Cross (I love Chrono Trigger, but I could just never get into CC), but I haven't played Xenogears, so I can't really offer an informed opinion. Oddly, FFVIII is my favorite of the three main PS1 entries, even though I'll admit that VII and IX are probably technically better.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Good comparison, Ryu. That's quite true, indeed.

With the way the BSN user base has gone, Skywalker, I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of DA3's pre-release topics will be variations of, "do you honestly expect this game to be remotely playable after the complete trash of DA2?"

Which, to be fair, I haven't played. So, I'm not sure what I'd comment. But there's a point when the negativity is just... good grief.

 

[Skywalker]

Eh, I liked DA2 for the most part. Yeah, I hated the recycling of environments, and the story completely fell apart in the third act, but overall it was still good. It certainly wasn't complete trash.

 

[Parrots_United]

Oh, and VII is the best of the PSX trilogy. For a long time now, it's become the "jaded star" - immensely popular, but often complained-about for its immense popularity by those who feel it doesn't deserve it. There are valid points against it, but its scope is relatively grand, its cast is rock-solid and its journey is memorable. IMO, IMO.

I completely agree 100%. It seems that out of its slight over-relatedness, FFVII has become underrated gamer's opinions today.

Frankly, I don't even understand a lot of the hate this game gets! You can flame me all you want, but I seriously can't see how the two can even compete! FFVII wins by a mile, in my book atleast (BTW: I thought FFVI was great, I just liked FFVII a lot more). Chances are, 90% of people in this thread, like on most threads with JRPG fans, will beg to differ.

And even if you do think the plot is cheesy, the visuals are atrocious, or the materia system was convoluted and unbalanced, you cannot deny the influence FFVII had. It and the FFVII relauch campaign brought thousands into the JRPG frame.

I'd really hoped this wouldn't turn into a pro-FFVII, anti-FFVII topic. There are far too many of those on the internet, and not just on websites like GameFAQs.

Oop... My bad.... I guess I should stop before this gets bloody.


BTW, I managed to find your review, and I am reading it now.

 

[Saito S]

FFT isn't "really an Atlus game"; Atlus only localized Tactics Ogre. Quest created TO. Atlus didn't work on it.

True. I'd forgotten about Quest, actually... funny thing is, the fact that the Quest staff made it really shows. FFT almost is TO, with better graphics and a different story/setting.

On the opposite end of this particular spectrum, I firmly believe the PSX era is worthy of all its praise, and the PS2 JRPG era is much weaker.

Hmm... I'd like to say I disagree, but when I think about it, I played way more JRPGs during the SNES and PS1 eras than I did during the PS2 era. HOWEVER, for me personally, that had nothing to do with the games. During the SNES era, I played RPGs and little else; when I got my PSX, I branched out more and played other games too; by the time the PS2 rolled around, I was mostly playing other games, perhaps having oversaturated myself on JRPGs during those previous years, and didn't play that many. So I don't really agree, either.

Plus, the PS2 era of JRPGs gave me Star Ocean 3, which is one of my favorite games ever and has by far the best battles of any JRPG I've played, so I can't complain about that.

Regarding XG's and CC's OSTs, their composer, Yasunori Mitsuda, is the only video game musician I would pin above Uematsu. Those two worked together on CT's, by the by.

I'd put him on Uematsu's level, but not above, personally. Mitsuda, Uematsu, Motoi Sakaruba, and Yoko Shimomura are basically my Holy Quad of JRPG composers. When I see any of their names on a game's soundtrack, I always check it out, even if I never end up playing the game itself.

Chrono Trigger was bascially Mitsuda's breakout score, if memory serves. Uematsu scored several tracks and advised, but Mitsuda did most of the work and was then tapped for entire OSTs on his own later on.

Re: FFVII, I think that things probably lie somewhere between what you (Jeff) are saying and what Clegg is saying. Perhaps its popularity has been overblown somewhat, but it was very popular, and not just in terms of sales. It entered the cultural consciousness, which is in a way a much bigger deal than how many units it sold (though let's not undercut that TOO much; it easily outsold all other JRPGs before it in the US as far as I know, and moved the genre from "decently popular niche" to "not really a niche at all"). It was on magazine covers like mad, it won awards from publications all over the place, and Cloud is to gamers as Captain Kirk is to sci-fi geeks. I think those are why it's accurate to say it was and is very well-known and very popular. This also is why Square later came back and beat the living CRAP out of it by releasing a slew of half-assed, retcon-happy sequal things.

As I said, I do think it was a pretty good RPG, but not in any way the be-all, end-all of JRPGs (or even just of FF) that it has at times been made out to be, and definitely wasn't as good as IV-VI. My order for the PSX games goes VII, then VIII close behind, then IX, so far behind that VIII can't even see it in its rearview mirror.

Re: GameFAQs, I think that it is the first thing that everyone in this thread can agree on: that's it's a pretty crappy place with a few isolated pockets of coolness. I remember the Star Ocean 3 board being pretty mellow, though I haven't checked in there in ages.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I completely agree 100%. It seems that out of its slight over-relatedness, FFVII has become underrated gamer's opinions today.

Frankly, I don't even understand a lot of the hate this game gets! You can flame me all you want, but I seriously can't see how the two can even compete! FFVII wins by a mile, in my book atleast (BTW: I thought FFVI was great, I just liked FFVII a lot more). Chances are, 90% of people in this thread, like on most threads with JRPG fans, will beg to differ.

And even if you do think the plot is cheesy, the visuals are atrocious, or the materia system was convoluted and unbalanced, you cannot deny the influence FFVII had. It and the FFVII relauch campaign brought thousands into the JRPG frame.

Yep, I just don't see how it can be denied. It had a tremendous impact on the gaming industry for a time, and it managed to emulate some of that success years later, even.

I'm with you on VII, absolutely. And I, too, quite like VI! VII just edges it out in most major categories. Collectively, they're probably the series' high point, although I adore several other entries.

And oh, the mountains of hate I've received over the years for "echoing the unwashed masses" in putting VII over VI. Oi. IDIC, dammit! Somewhere out there, there's a guy who swears by Superman 64, so let's not argue over this!

Oop... My bad.... I guess I should stop before this gets bloody.

BTW, I managed to find your review, and I am reading it now.

Hahaha. Well, yep, there it is. Complete with its facepalm-worthy, Voyager-at-its-worst failure to correctly calculate the passage of time -- I wrote that it had been six years since my initial review, when clearly it's time-stamped to indicate that it had been exactly seven. Sigh.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

True. I'd forgotten about Quest, actually... funny thing is, the fact that the Quest staff made it really shows. FFT almost is TO, with better graphics and a different story/setting.

Yup, it totally is. When I originally played TO, it was several years after I'd played FFT, which is a common enough tale. And, as is also incredibly common in this story, I was blown away by how similar the two games really were.

Hmm... I'd like to say I disagree, but when I think about it, I played way more JRPGs during the SNES and PS1 eras than I did during the PS2 era. HOWEVER, for me personally, that had nothing to do with the games. During the SNES era, I played RPGs and little else; when I got my PSX, I branched out more and played other games too; by the time the PS2 rolled around, I was mostly playing other games, perhaps having oversaturated myself on JRPGs during those previous years, and didn't play that many. So I don't really agree, either.

Plus, the PS2 era of JRPGs gave me Star Ocean 3, which is one of my favorite games ever and has by far the best battles of any JRPG I've played, so I can't complain about that.

I prefer Star Ocean 2, personally. In fact, I'd go so far as to say SO2 is the diamond in the ruff; while SO3 is perfectly playable, I really don't care for 1 and especially 4 very much at all. And 3... well, my major issues are with the voice acting, and -- and this echoes common Xenogears criticism -- the incredibly long slogs of dialogue that don't accomplish anything at all.

Except, obviously as a huge Xenogears nut I disagree that nothing actually happens in Xenogears, or that the characters haven't actually accomplished anything, etc. whereas in Star Ocean 3, they just spend way too long debating whether or not to free Nel, and that routine seems to hold up throughout the entire game.

But really, it's the voice acting. As soon as I hear Peppita speak, I shrivel. Sophia gets on my nerves, too. And don't get me started on... on... uhh. Folly! I don't remember her name at all. Folly, folly. I don't recall it for the life of me. Some... really high-pitched chick later on in the game. All I know is that people often hold her up as the pinnacle of the game's awful VA work.

Some characters have great voices, though. Crispin Freeman rarely disappoints, and his turn as Albel is respectable. Fayt's wasn't so bad either, nor Cliff's or Maria's.

I'd put him on Uematsu's level, but not above, personally. Mitsuda, Uematsu, Motoi Sakaruba, and Yoko Shimomura are basically my Holy Quad of JRPG composers. When I see any of their names on a game's soundtrack, I always check it out, even if I never end up playing the game itself.

Yep, they're the best.

Chrono Trigger was bascially Mitsuda's breakout score, if memory serves. Uematsu scored several tracks and advised, but Mitsuda did most of the work and was then tapped for entire OSTs on his own later on.

Yes, indeed. In fact, IIRC, Mitsuda originally wanted to do the entire OST on his own. He proved incredibly capable, making his point (he was threatening to leave the company shortly if he hadn't been given a real project of his own, as he felt his talents were going to waste) but it was much too lofty an ambition. Uematsu was conscripted to help out.

Re: FFVII, I think that things probably lie somewhere between what you (Jeff) are saying and what Clegg is saying. Perhaps its popularity has been overblown somewhat, but it was very popular, and not just in terms of sales. It entered the cultural consciousness, which is in a way a much bigger deal than how many units it sold (though let's not undercut that TOO much; it easily outsold all other JRPGs before it in the US as far as I know, and moved the genre from "decently popular niche" to "not really a niche at all"). It was on magazine covers like mad, it won awards from publications all over the place, and Cloud is to gamers as Captain Kirk is to sci-fi geeks. I think those are why it's accurate to say it was and is very well-known and very popular. This also is why Square later came back and beat the living CRAP out of it by releasing a slew of half-assed, retcon-happy sequal things.

I see we agree that the sequels weren't exactly stellar. I'm a pretty easygoing nerd as far as retcons are concerned -- I just completely ignore what I don't like, end of. I do that with FFX-2, and I do with that several of the VII relaunch products.

Still, their very existence as products helps solidify our combined claim that FFVII was an incredibly popular thing for some time, and remains in the gaming consciousness to an extent even today. I'm not trying to sell people subscriptions to "Final Fantasy VII is God" magazine here or anything, I'm just stating facts as far as I can see 'em.

As I said, I do think it was a pretty good RPG, but not in any way the be-all, end-all of JRPGs (or even just of FF) that it has at times been made out to be, and definitely wasn't as good as IV-VI. My order for the PSX games goes VII, then VIII close behind, then IX, so far behind that VIII can't even see it in its rearview mirror.

Not a huge IV fan, although I do enjoy it. The game just feels at-odds to me story-wise, but I do respect it for trying as hard as it did back in 1991. FFV and FFVI are fantastic, though.

I also love IX, but you don't exactly seem to. I enjoy its "back to the classic style" efforts quite a bit.

Re: GameFAQs, I think that it is the first thing that everyone in this thread can agree on: that's it's a pretty crappy place with a few isolated pockets of coolness. I remember the Star Ocean 3 board being pretty mellow, though I haven't checked in there in ages.

I posted on the SO3 board in the months leading to the game's release. I gushed over Shimomura with people. You may have been there!