How the hell is she Captain?

[Edit_XYZ]

And yet again, ad hominems plenty.
Considering your own behavior, you're in no position to give lessons on proper behavior, Sho.

An ad hominem attack is a logical fallacy that occurs when one choses to belittle their opponents in a debate in order to invalidate their arguments. Since I'm not a participant in the argument being had here, I can hardly be guilty of one.

"Ad hominem is a logical fallacy that occurs when one choses to belittle their opponents in a debate in order to invalidate their arguments."
And you became involved in the argument - you belittled me in order to invalidate pretty much all points I made in this subforum.

An ad personam is also gratuitously insulting a person (in which case, the word 'insult' is more appropriate).

(FWIW, I actually considered your argument in the debate not entirely without merit, or at least an interesting way to look at things, though not having read a lot of the books involved yet I deliberately didn't participate since my opinion would be far from qualified.)

If you want intellectual 'fast food', comfy self-congratulatory posts that fail to challenge your views and assumptions, then you most definitely do NOT want to read my posts.
Most posters do seem to want just that.

As for my point being grounded in the books - notice how none of the posters challenged the established facts I mentioned about Ezri.

As for examples of when you employ argumentum ad hominem (other than chosing to use that particular emoticon up there, by the way), one of your favorite ways of doing so is to cast doubt on the motivations of those holding a particular opinion, dismissing them as "fan annoyance" or the like. This occurs several times in this thread, and in many others.

Very well.
In this discussion (and others), I came with initial points free of ad personams - or other logical fallacies.
The response - from you or other posters - ad personams or (if you prefer) insults.

Why all this annoyance?
The posters REALLY did not like having assumptions challenged by unpopular deductions/inductions. This is my hypothesis - and, as far as i can tell, it's heavily supported by the behaviour in this thread and others.

But, by all means - do come with alternative explanations. The 'Edit XYZ starts with provocative ad personams' one, I can easily prove as wrong - by merely linking to my initial posts.

 

[Mage]

Yeah, I'm officially done responding to any posts he writes. It's pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with him.

Agreed. I, and others, tried talking to the man. But there's no point.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Sho

Case in point.

My post:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6523369&postcount=173

Responses:

Yeah, I'm officially done responding to any posts he writes. It's pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with him.

Agreed. I, and others, tried talking to the man. But there's no point.

Do notice how none of these posters discussed my points; at the latest, this happened after I shot down their initial counterarguments.
Instead, notice how they recoursed to ad personams (see the definition of which from your post).

As said, my hypothesis is HEAVILY supported by "responses" (if you can dignify them with such a word) such as these.

 

[Sho]

^ I think you're possibly overestimating everyone's desire to "win" a debate here. Your posts frequently have a very competitive/combative edge to them, which I think is part of what's jarring to everyone, along with the self-stylization of being the only one willing or able to call out inconvenient facts.

You supposed earlier that I was criticizing you because I'm unable to accept/take your points, which isn't true; as mentioned, I even found them interesting. Indeed, I have no problem with rocking the boat a little or challenging a commonly accepted view. No, what bugged me, and the reason I spoke out, was your tone and delivery, and how they don't fit the climate of a forum I like to read. You don't have to be to darn intense, and yes, ad hominem almost everytime someone doesn't agree immediately.

And that has nothing to do with wanting challenging opinions silenced or turning the forum into a circlejerk, singing kumbaya around the camp fire. The point is more that your tone and delivery get in the way of getting people to think about your arguments, because you provoke them into being defensive. That is, I'm not saying that everyone around you is being a saint and acting entirely mature all the time, but that you do tend to be the instigator of or act as an accelerant in conflict, and that by adopting a different mode of discourse you'd ultimately be more successful in making your opinion heard.

Anyway, this thread is pretty much beyond rescue as pertaining to the original argument, I fear. Let's just do better next time.

 

[Mage]

Perhaps trying to get back on topic will help.

Personally, people tend to use the reasoning of the 20th/21th century on a theoretical 24th century. In this make-believe 24th century, humanity and the Federation have evolved beyond holding a grudge. Although we like to think we have prisons to rehabilitate people, we just put them away and don't bother anymore.
In the 24th century, there is actual rehabilitation. Meaning, a strong effort is made to give the people the change to learn from mistakes and become a part of society. So, if after two years in the stockade you are reformed, you can become an active part of this society again, with out prejodice from others around you.

In case of Ro, it would seem that even though she betrayed Starfleet's principales, her actions after all that (figthing the Dominion, becoming a part of the Bajoran Militia) showed Starfleet that she was worthy of wearing the uniform again, especially since a former captain of hers put in a good word.

What I'm trying to say is, people are applying a modern-day way of thinking to a make believe society set 370 years from now. The idea is that we believe things work differently by then. And for those who think they won't, just look at how different our society (and therefore the penalsystem) was 370 years in the past.

As for becoming a captain so quickly.... She had the rank of Lieutenant in 2376, and was appereantly a commander in 2381 when she was in command of DS9. It's clearly stated in PoN that she wasn't a captain for very long when the events of ZSG took place, only recently promoted to that rank.
I have no clue how fast people are promoted in army or navy in real life, so I'll leave it people with more knowledge of that if this make sense, to be promoted from lieutenant to captain in 6 years time.

 

[zarkon]

As for becoming a captain so quickly.... She had the rank of Lieutenant in 2376, and was appereantly a commander in 2381 when she was in command of DS9. It's clearly stated in PoN that she wasn't a captain for very long when the events of ZSG took place, only recently promoted to that rank.
I have no clue how fast people are promoted in army or navy in real life, so I'll leave it people with more knowledge of that if this make sense, to be promoted from lieutenant to captain in 6 years time.

I'm sure it's far more likely when you've recently lost a lot of ships & stations in battle.

Or as one of the Sharpe books put it : "if this keeps up we'll all be generals by christmas".

 

[Mage]

As for becoming a captain so quickly.... She had the rank of Lieutenant in 2376, and was appereantly a commander in 2381 when she was in command of DS9. It's clearly stated in PoN that she wasn't a captain for very long when the events of ZSG took place, only recently promoted to that rank.
I have no clue how fast people are promoted in army or navy in real life, so I'll leave it people with more knowledge of that if this make sense, to be promoted from lieutenant to captain in 6 years time.

I'm sure it's far more likely when you've recently lost a lot of ships & stations in battle.

Or as one of the Sharpe books put it : "if this keeps up we'll all be generals by christmas".

Almost forgot about that. Necessity is often great motivation.

 

[DigificWriter]

Actually, what Zero Sum Game tells us is that she hadn't been a Captain very long, having only received a promotion in rank just prior to the events of that novel.

IOW, she spent the first year-plus of her tenure as DS9's CO in the same position that Benjamin Sisko was in when Starfleet initially came to the Bajoran sector.

BTW, ZSG takes place in 2382, not 2381, and RBoE and PoN tell us that she became Vaughn's XO in 2379, so it's likely that she held the rank of Commander during her time as station second-in-command as well.

 

[Sho]

Actually, what Zero Sum Game tells us is that she hadn't been a Captain very long, having only received a promotion in rank just prior to the events of that novel.

That's just what Mage wrote too, tho.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You're right. I misread what he/she said.

As an aside, here's a timeline of what we know concerning Ro's rank history:
2376: Rejoins Starfleet with the reinstated rank of Lieutenant
2379: Becomes DS9's XO
2180/81*: Becomes DS9's CO with rank of Commander
August 2382: Promoted to Captain

* I can't remember whether RBoE and/or PoN establish which year Vaughn leaves to command the James T. Kirk

 

[Christopher]

I have no clue how fast people are promoted in army or navy in real life, so I'll leave it people with more knowledge of that if this make sense, to be promoted from lieutenant to captain in 6 years time.

I don't know about real life, but Will Riker became a lieutenant somewhere between 2358-61 and was offered his first captaincy in 2364. Picard got his captaincy six years after graduation, but that was an emergency situation that bumped him up two grades from lieutenant commander, so up to that point his promotions had been slower than Riker's (since Riker became a lt. cmdr. just four years after graduation).

As an aside, here's a timeline of what we know concerning Ro's rank history:
2376: Rejoins Starfleet with the reinstated rank of Lieutenant
2379: Becomes DS9's XO
2180/81*: Becomes DS9's CO with rank of Commander
August 2382: Promoted to Captain

* I can't remember whether RBoE and/or PoN establish which year Vaughn leaves to command the James T. Kirk

I recall looking into that a couple of weeks ago and finding a reference that Vaughn left DS9 later in '79.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Thanks for that corroboration, Christopher. That means that Ro could've been a Lt. Cmdr. before Vaughn left and received a promotion to full Commander when she took over for Vaughn later in 2379, or she could've already been a full Cmdr. and simply been promoted in position from XO to CO.

 

[captcalhoun]

Geordi went Ensign to Lieutenant Commander in 3 seasons. he jumped a rank between seasons 2 and 3 and then between 3 and 4. in contrast, Data never changed ranks, Deanna was promoted in season 7 from LTC to full commander, Beverly never got promoted, Worf went up 1 rank from jg to full lieutenant and Picard and Riker (naturally) remained static.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I've just had a thought on the whole Ro issue that I thought I'd throw out there.

In "Ensign Ro" she was roped back into active service, where she butted heads with Riker and didn't particularly fit in with anyone else onboard, but Picard saw something in her he liked and so kept her around (no doubt using his own clout, reputation and connections in order to do this, in short, he put his faith and trust in her not to screw up, or it would reflect badly on him).

He later went on to support her application to Advanced Tactical Training, which again demostrates his trust in her to succeed and do well--thus demonstrating that he was right to give her every chance that he did.

When she then turns around and betrays him, the final scene is of him standing in his ready room looking hurt and betrayed, and I doubt her last words (relayed by Riker) would do much to soothe those feelings--after all, here is a woman he went out on a limb for, only to have her saw it off and watch him plummet.

Picard is a man of duty and the honour that it brings. He is a man of principle and pride in his ship and his crew (though not necessarily in his own accomplishments). So to have Ro betray all that would be a serious personal injury on his part.

He isn't a vengeful man, but I'm really not sure he would be so willing to let Ro back into Starfleet after what she'd done. Even though she was doing what she thought was right, she betreayed the uniform and what it stands for (something he chewed Wesley out for when he was a cadet).

Given all that, I really do doubt that she would reach the rank of Captain in just 4/5/however many years.

But that's just my latest musing on the matter.

 

[DimesDan]

Why is this thread still going?

Are the mods for this section actually still about, I requested this thread got closed, yet it's still going.

 

[Sho]

FWIW, most forums I know won't close threads on request of the original poster, especially when discussion has already begun, meaning there are several stakeholders.

 

[DimesDan]

FWIW, most forums I know won't close threads on request of the original poster, especially when discussion has already begun, meaning there are several stakeholders.

Yes I know. The thing is, in other sections where the mods are actually visible, if a request is made to close a thread, it happens. Plus, the original subject had migrated drastically and had turned into a typical clusterfuck when certain posters start having a mass-debate.

 

[Sho]

A PN can do wonders. Both Rosalind and LightningSpark have been very helpful and quick to respond when it came to all the thread renames and other cleanups that I suggested in connection to my little ranking project.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Geordi went Ensign to Lieutenant Commander in 3 seasons. he jumped a rank between seasons 2 and 3 and then between 3 and 4.

LaForge started off as as lieutenant j.g. in season one, became a full lieutenant in season two, and then was a lieutenant commander from season three onwards.

 

[DimesDan]

A PN can do wonders. Both Rosalind and LightningSpark have been very helpful and quick to respond when it came to all the thread renames and other cleanups that I suggested in connection to my little ranking project.

You mean a Private Message right? I sent one of those weeks ago, I also reported this thread and explained why which means all the Mods would have seen it in the Briefing Room.