Katie Holmes got tired of Scientology?

[horatio83]

^^^If you really feel hurt, sorry. All I wanted is for people to think about why being old somehow gives it a free pass. By that standard, isn't astrology classier than spiritualism?
Indeed by that standard, monarchy is more acceptable than democracy!

Religion is not an attribute of a person like race, sex, sexual preference, nationality. Religion is a social institution, and religious belief is more like membership in a political party. Except that religion is a kind of party that insists its members believe in the supernatural and reject reason as the final authority. Religions are like armies, they support the status quo (unless they are shattered, which means you are in a revolution.) As such, they defend the social prejudices of the order they support, i.e., they preach bigotry.

This is not an accident of temperament in the individual believer, it is their social function, their role. This is why religions so often take the form of a state church. Condemning the institution is not bigotry. The charge is bogus. Unfortunately, the notion that somehow one's religion (which overwhelmingly is the one either born into or married) really is an essential part of one's identity really is close to religious bigotry. After all, if it is bigotry to reject religion, you must respect those who reject false religion. But if false religion really is somehow who those wrong believers truly are, then they too must be rejected.

The only path out of the madness is to reject religion as an institution. This does not require telling lies, as in pretending that anyone whose religion tells them to reject simple facts like evolution is (in a loose sense of the word) crazy.

I don't know what is more stupid, subjectively believing in a higher being or thinking that religion really works like that. To believe is inherently human. It is not as simple as lieing vs. telling the truth. Sure, we have natural sciences but all kind of social stuff has some degree of belief in it.
I am a social democrat and of course I could list a dozen good arguments for it but they are basically just a rationalization for my gut feeling.

Why do we watch Trek? Because we want to believe (X-Files was right) in a better future. Belief always implies doubt, otherwise it is not belief. Only fundamentalists and their atheistic counterparts (Dawkins, Hitchens and so on) view belief as a truth statement.

We have already established that the question is not the form, all kind of human social activity implies belief. The question is what people believe in. In the case of God this implies that the question of existence is irrelevant except to the aforementioned fundamentalists. Content, what the word God signifies, matters.

In polytheistic religions gods can basically manipulated to recreate natural balance. You sacrifice some fruits, a goat or a virgin to appease the fertility goddess during a drought. When monotheism emerged god signified something entirely different to the ancient Israelities, he stood for ethical horror, the absolute, the law and so on. No more holistic balance with nature crap. And to repeat my former point, God doesn't literally exist, the Holy of Hollies is basically just a void that covers up that there is nothing there.

In the Jesus story the point about the Holy of Hollies is even clearer, when the curtain is ripped apart there is nothing behind it and the "son" of God just died. All that remains is the community of believers which is open for everybody.
To kill off God is more radical than atheism as it actively reveals the horror of being on our own. Without this you sooner or later create a substitute God (to remain with the secular fundamentalists, science in the case of Dawkins).
To surprise you even more, the communist idea of radical change and a universal emancipatory collective is first to be found in messianic religions. The irony is that your political belief basically first emerged in what you utterly hate.

I totally agree that institutionalized religion usually sucks yet not because they are true to their texts. I doubt that we would be culturally as far as we are today without the monotheistic revolution.
This Pagan logic of balance can still often be found, e.g. in the case of climate change (we raped mother Earth and now we are punished) or in the case of Christian fundamentalists (Robertson claiming that 9/11 was a punishment for the wicked liberal American way of life). But Jewish holocaust survivors do not think that they did anything wrong and got punished for it, they view it as nightmare and catastrophe. No childish believe that God is up there and takes care of us if we are nice or whatever.

 

[PopBoy]

I am a hardcore atheist but anti-religious bigotry is no better than racism, sexism or homophobia.

For me, religion is a little bit silly. Kinda like believin' the tooth fairy exists - but hey if you wanna believe and find faith/support/love in that way - as long as its not harming anyone else....go ahead. The more open a religion the better - i think as scientologists are so closed it gives people the willies.

ps i speak coming from a really strict family with members belonging to that wonderful organization called Opus Dei and/or institutions affiliated with the said organization. It aint great to be a kid growing up around that - not to mention a gay one either.

 

[horatio83]

Ah, the Vatican's S31. Or is this a euphemism?
Are you still in contact with your family or are they just too unbearable?

 

[PopBoy]

Yes and No. The less traditional ones yes, they're still in contact. Though at first when I came out I was asked not to contact family members. Then got an email from a cousin here and the liberal aunty there. And, bit by bit I began talking them again. But not spoken to my dad, for instance, for years.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

That SUCKS PopBoy

 

[horatio83]

Yes and No. The less traditional ones yes, they're still in contact. Though at first when I came out I was asked not to contact family members. Then got an email from a cousin here and the liberal aunty there. And, bit by bit I began talking them again. But not spoken to my dad, for instance, for years.

Probably not nice to lose your father but if he is a typical reactionary homophobic Catholic who does not accept you I say screw him. Or piss him off via saying that his homophobia is heretic because Jesus wanted everybody in his community. It's always fun to fight the enemy on their terrain.

 

[Amaris]

I am a hardcore atheist but anti-religious bigotry is no better than racism, sexism or homophobia.

For me, religion is a little bit silly. Kinda like believin' the tooth fairy exists - but hey if you wanna believe and find faith/support/love in that way - as long as its not harming anyone else....go ahead. The more open a religion the better - i think as scientologists are so closed it gives people the willies.

ps i speak coming from a really strict family with members belonging to that wonderful organization called Opus Dei and/or institutions affiliated with the said organization. It aint great to be a kid growing up around that - not to mention a gay one either.

You are gay? Neat!

I mean, I don't believe in "gaydar" or anything like that, but I saw your picture and I just kind of "felt" that "vibe", but I didn't want to make any assumptions!

 

[PopBoy]

That SUCKS PopBoy

Yea. Always will. Its HARD. Especially on birthdays. But slowly getting over it. I have good friends.

 

[PopBoy]

For me, religion is a little bit silly. Kinda like believin' the tooth fairy exists - but hey if you wanna believe and find faith/support/love in that way - as long as its not harming anyone else....go ahead. The more open a religion the better - i think as scientologists are so closed it gives people the willies.

ps i speak coming from a really strict family with members belonging to that wonderful organization called Opus Dei and/or institutions affiliated with the said organization. It aint great to be a kid growing up around that - not to mention a gay one either.

You are gay? Neat!

I mean, I don't believe in "gaydar" or anything like that, but I saw your picture and I just kind of "felt" that "vibe", but I didn't want to make any assumptions!

Awww, love your avatar btw!

I gotta "gayface?" Really? You felt the vibe..mmmmm.interesting. Hehehehehe!!! Thank you

So, i think religion can be an amazing tool for survival, education, internal understanding, communication and of course community. But it is also used for so many other things too. Many of which are negative - i cant begin to imagine the stress both Nicole and Katie were under during they're divorces.

What i found interesting with regards to Katie was that i never saw photos of her out with friends. Nicole Kidman was at least allowed to continue her film career. Katies stopped. And, i really dont wish to draw conclusions based on assumptions but for me this felt incredibly odd.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

^^^If you really feel hurt, sorry. All I wanted is for people to think about why being old somehow gives it a free pass.

No, I wasn't hurt. I was just kidding.

I don't think religion should be given a free pass by any means. As I said, I'm an atheist and have plenty of things to criticize about various religions. At the same time I get annoyed by some of the more militant atheists who have a knee-jerk negative reaction to anything associated with religion and who often seem to dominate the narrative, giving the rest of us a bad name.

Let me put it this way, if someone were organizing an interfaith conference of religious leaders, would it be reasonable to give the guy who started a Church of Steve Urkel (hallowed be thy name) in his basement two years ago as a way to sell merchandise a seat at the table with prominent Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Sikh, and other leaders?

To address what you said above about judging it by the modern followers, I wouldn't invite corrupt Christian televangelists who are only out to make a buck by on-stage faith healing and speaking in tongues either. I don't see them as any better than Scientology. It's taking advantage of people purely to make a buck (often by asking for much more than they can afford to spare), with no genuine intent to help others in the process.

 

[Gaith]

In light of this debate, I think we should allow Cruise to describe Scientology in his own words (sort of).

 

[gturner]

Hey, there are e-meters on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...gy+e-meter&geo_id=10032&adgroup_id=4122328835

$300 to $2000 for an analog ohmmeter, and you can get one signed by L. Ron Hubbard for only $25,000. Act now, supplies are limited!

Apparently one of its uses (since it is a crude lie-detector) is to ferret out people trying to penetrate the church, as well as the general interrogation to collect and document member's most embarrassing or damaging secrets.

ETA: I'll bet Scientology has a lot more actors than electrical engineers.

 

[Roger Wilco]

The Scientologists don't have blood on their hands yet.

That's a lie.

And why did you ignore everything I said in response to your comment?

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Hey, there are e-meters on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...gy+e-meter&geo_id=10032&adgroup_id=4122328835

$300 to $2000 for an analog ohmmeter, and you can get one signed by L. Ron Hubbard for only $25,000. Act now, supplies are limited!

Apparently one of its uses (since it is a crude lie-detector) is to ferret out people trying to penetrate the church, as well as the general interrogation to collect and document member's most embarrassing or damaging secrets.

ETA: I'll bet Scientology has a lot more actors than electrical engineers.

Looks like Mrs Cruise is trying to shift some of her old birthday and xmas presents.

 

[stj]

The Scientologists don't have blood on their hands yet.

That's a lie.

And why did you ignore everything I said in response to your comment?

First, I don't know of any blood shed by Scientologists yet, whereas we all know of blood shed by Christians, in large quantities, both in remote history (assorted Crusades,) and recent (massacre at Tal Zatar in Lebanon.)

Second, what you posted depends on a purely imaginary distinction between "mainstream" and other Christians etc. Mainstream Christians in the US have blindly supported wars, murder, tyranny against Muslims in far lands that do not and cannot possibly pose a threat with total indifference to the cost. Only their hate could lead them to such insanity.

Religion is not morality nor is it a psychological phenomenon.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well I only started watching Dawsons Creek a few months ago, I'm on a break before I start season 4, but when I catch up to you lot, I'll be sure to chime in on the girl.

Although...

Wouldn't it be wonderful for to have a cameo on Don't trust the Bitch in Apartment 23 playing against Jim again, where she can talk in veiled metaphors about the separation?

 

[Roger Wilco]

Do Catholics force families to "disconnect" from member who say something bad against the Church? Do Lutherans hire private detectives to spy against apostates and bully them on the internet? Do Jews start public misinformation campaigns against journalists who write about problems in their religion?

No.

Scientology is not just a fucking religion, it's a vile, authoritarian, abusive organisation that rips the life out of their followers and makes them completely dependent to prevent any free thinking. Your levelling is wrong, and disgusting and exactly the kind of misinformation Scientology loves.

 

[Mary Ann]

ps i speak coming from a really strict family with members belonging to that wonderful organization called Opus Dei and/or institutions affiliated with the said organization. It aint great to be a kid growing up around that - not to mention a gay one either.

Ouch! My father is a very, very staunch Roman Catholic, and while I'm heterosexual I can guess what you went through. Heck, my father is even a Young Earth creationist. While he never disowned my lesbian cousin he's still waiting for her to grow out of her lesbian "phase". He's the most judgemental person I know, and it drives me nuts. Good to hear that you're still in contact with some of your family members.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Is this how you think a religion acts, stj?

 

[PopBoy]

ps i speak coming from a really strict family with members belonging to that wonderful organization called Opus Dei and/or institutions affiliated with the said organization. It aint great to be a kid growing up around that - not to mention a gay one either.

Ouch! My father is a very, very staunch Roman Catholic, and while I'm heterosexual I can guess what you went through. Heck, my father is even a Young Earth creationist. While he never disowned my lesbian cousin he's still waiting for her to grow out of her lesbian "phase". He's the most judgemental person I know, and it drives me nuts. Good to hear that you're still in contact with some of your family members.

Yeah its difficult. Very difficult - i can't begin to imagine though the difficulties facing members feeling the rough side of an organization such as the scientologists. Apparently Katie Holmes was weirdly being followed. The paps (who usually do the following) sussed them out.