I guess it was not so much a twist (we were told in the book that he was negotiating with her) but just something that was out of sight and out of mind. When he takes Sansa to the Vale it seemed to come out of nowhere.
A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion
- Thread starter Out Of My Vulcan Mind
- Start date
I think the TV writers are less inclined to make that development anything like a twist, judging by the Littlefinger/Sansa scene in "Valar Morghulis." But I don't really expect we'll see his wooing of Lysa anyway; that was just a bottom-of-the-barrel attempt to construct a scenario where "Myranda" is Myranda Royce (and/or Mya Stone).
Blackfish has been cast - Clive Russell
Original mention:
http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/05/game-of-thrones-season-3-casting-roles.html
Actor's agency page:
http://www.shepherdmanagement.co.uk/news/film-and-tv
Original mention:
http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/05/game-of-thrones-season-3-casting-roles.html
Actor's agency page:
http://www.shepherdmanagement.co.uk/news/film-and-tv
I was thinking about that too. They need Edmure as the groom in the Red Wedding, but the Blackfish... Maybe he has an important role after escaping Riverrun at the end of AFFC, or maybe Benioff and Weiss just share the enthusiasm some fans have for the character and figure he's as good a way as any to do the siege of Riverrun in AFFC.
I can finally join the discussion. I have no HBO, no cable, no time to watch television regular time because of my lousy boss and job. I just discovered GOT on a live streaming site about two weekends ago and have watched the entire first two seasons in the past 10 days. I was completely unfamiliar with the books and wanted to remain unspoiled about the series. Best way to watch. Since we're between seasons I don't feel too risky coming into a spoiler thread. I have comments and questions.
1.)I must disagree that Robb was a "fucking moron" for marrying Talisa the noble woman. Unwise, yes, considering his oath (or his momma's oath) but not entirely unreasonable. IMHO, his emotional state at that moment explains a great deal of his behavior. Obviously the actor is not 16 nor is the character. He's in a state of emotional upheaval because of Ned's murder and wanting to avenge him so much. He's worried about his sisters being hostage and winning the war to depose the Lannisters. The discussions way upthread seem to disregard one significant contributing factor in Robb's impulsive decision to marry--that Robb is extremely angry with his mother, justifiably so in my opinion, for taking it upon herself to release Jamie Lannister.
Jamie was their leverage and if he gets the drop on Brienn the giant gladiator woman, he's free and can do whatever damage he likes. Robb can no longer use him as leverage to get his sisters freed. His mother threw that all away. Yes, she was worried about her children but as the old man said....he had a dead son and a captured son. They all had children they'd lost or were concerned about. It wasn't just Catelyn's children. Jamie's release could have scuttled all of their plans to depose the Lannisters and protect themselves; Catelyn was supremely selfish. I believe Robb's sense of betrayal fed into his decision. His mother broke her oath, so he breaks his. Not wise, but understandable. He's been presented as the most emotional of the Stark offspring in spite of his war prowess. He's impulsive and IMO exactly like his father where succumbing to emotional impulse is concerned. Ned telling Circe Lannister that he knew about Joffrey's paternity so "the children would have a chance to escape" was about the dumbest thing in the entire series. He thought Circe would just leave or not have him arrested. What crack was he smoking?
If Talisa turns out to be some sort of spy or plant, all the better but I suspect the love story is a result of it finally dawning on TPTB on the writing staff that the actor playing Robb Stark is extremely handsome and charismatic.
My sister calls Robb and Jon "stud one" and stud two."2.)What's with the secrecy about Jon Snow's mother? Why did Ned purposefully keep her identity a secret from Jon? Is Jon really his? I wondered for a time and I still wonder. Given Ned's propensity for self sacrifice and honor to his own detriment, I wondered if Jon was some foundling that Ned had taken in. Circe Lannister's raven haired child that was taken from her because he "died" at birth? Would explain him lying to Catelyn, whom I can't blame for resenting Ned bringing Jon into their home. Am I off the rails?
3.)Of course Theon Greyjoy hates the Starks and is a humiliated, emasculated mess. His dad "sells" him, he grows up having to be beholden to benevolent captors who killed his brothers in battle, then his father treats him like shit when he comes home. How could he be anything but a mess? Of course, killing those farmboys pretty much ensures him a place in hell no matter how rotten his childhood.
4.)TYRION. LANNISTER. ROCKS. He rocks like the rolling stones. He rocks as much as Joffrey sucks, that little shit ass. Tyrion needs to hit him more. What did Circe expect Joffrey to be? She helped make him an entitled monster. Tyrion may be my favorite character. I hope Shaye is on the up and up.
5.)I don't have much sympathy for Catelyn as a whole and I can't figure out why. She's strong. I don't dislike her, and I can understand her frustration and anger at Ned for bringing home the result of his affair for her to raise, but something about her is jarring. I should appreciate her but for some reason I don't. Maybe the actress....
This is spoilerville, so be warned.
1. Robb IS a fucking moron, especially the way the 'romance' is depicted in the show. Essentially she is the only woman around so he decides he has to marry her and spit in the face of his only real ally in the south.
2. Jon Snow is probably Lyanna's son by Rhaegar Targaryan. I wouldn't expect you to have any inclination towards this theory though as the show has avoided much of the key back-story from the books.
3. True.
4. True.
5. It is a combination. I didn't much care for the character in the books myself, but the actress (and the dialogue they give her) is one of the notably weak links in the show.
1. Robb IS a fucking moron, especially the way the 'romance' is depicted in the show. Essentially she is the only woman around so he decides he has to marry her and spit in the face of his only real ally in the south.
2. Jon Snow is probably Lyanna's son by Rhaegar Targaryan. I wouldn't expect you to have any inclination towards this theory though as the show has avoided much of the key back-story from the books.
3. True.
4. True.
5. It is a combination. I didn't much care for the character in the books myself, but the actress (and the dialogue they give her) is one of the notably weak links in the show.
I like the Catelyn of the books and I like Michelle Fairley, but I don't think the TV writers have enough interest in the character to really make her work onscreen, especially since they're so taken with Richard Madden and TV Robb. There's a fair amount of missing background material and seemingly-small changes that detract from (what I think) the author's goals with the character were. Some of it may come into play to some extent in the next season, though.
That is true,Anwar. Talisa's somewhat high born, so Robb could have pissed off her family or ruined her reputation by slam, bam, thanking you ma'am-ing Talisa. As I opined, Robb seems extremely driven by his emotional impulses. It's a striking contrast to his seemingly natural tactical prowess when it comes to war and battle. Robb acts "honorably" towards her to the point of stupidity and self detriment. Once again, he's his father's son more than any of the other Stark children.
I'm judging the situation by my 21st century "of course marriages shouldn't be arranged" standards. His character seems real. They all seem like real characters in a fantasy setting, not so much larger than life. People can do stupid things when they're in a heightened emotional state, which Ned's death and Catelyn's betrayal seem to have put Robb in. Talisa listened to him and sympathized--that can be a powerful aphrodisiac when you're in pain. If she's not on the up and up, even better for story. Also, I think it's cool as hell that Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter is now Lady Stark, wife of Robb. Love the casting. She looks exactly like her mother, Geraldine.
Venardhi, love the theory about Lyanna Stark being Jon's mother.
That would explain both his devotion to Jon and his keeping the secret from Cat. She might not want a Targearyean child in the house with her children.
Tyrion defines cool. He's more of a knight on the inside than the knights. He's not cruel to anyone who doesn't have it coming. Peter Dinklage is the lone American in the cast now, no? Is it true this is filmed in Iceland?
I'm judging the situation by my 21st century "of course marriages shouldn't be arranged" standards. His character seems real. They all seem like real characters in a fantasy setting, not so much larger than life. People can do stupid things when they're in a heightened emotional state, which Ned's death and Catelyn's betrayal seem to have put Robb in. Talisa listened to him and sympathized--that can be a powerful aphrodisiac when you're in pain. If she's not on the up and up, even better for story. Also, I think it's cool as hell that Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter is now Lady Stark, wife of Robb. Love the casting. She looks exactly like her mother, Geraldine.
Venardhi, love the theory about Lyanna Stark being Jon's mother.
That would explain both his devotion to Jon and his keeping the secret from Cat. She might not want a Targearyean child in the house with her children. Tyrion defines cool. He's more of a knight on the inside than the knights. He's not cruel to anyone who doesn't have it coming. Peter Dinklage is the lone American in the cast now, no? Is it true this is filmed in Iceland?
The scenes north of the wall once they got beyond Craster's Keep were filmed in Iceland. Most of the shoot is done in Northern Ireland, and they've also shot in Morocco and Croatia.
By the way, you shouldn't feel safe about being in this thread at all when it comes to spoilers. There are major surprises that have been and will continue to be talked about here, so be advised of that and enter at your own risk.
And Malta.
^^^
Thought I was forgetting one. Thanks.
Thought I was forgetting one. Thanks.
Doesn't hold water.
Robert had dozens of bastards, and more than a few upon highborn lasses. The people loved him and he had amazingly few enemies among the nobles considering he defeated half of them in the war.
Talisa is supposedly from a somewhat titled family. Besmirching an "important" woman is always going to be a different cup of tea. Robb Stark is supposedly more thoughtful and "honorable" than King Robert, though that wouldn't take much. Robert was a pig and a half.
I agree that Rob made a grave error in judgment going ahead and marrying Talisa; all I'm saying is that the impulsiveness is earned by how the character's been presented as an emotional man torn being honor and his extreme anger at his mother for letting Jamie Lannister go. Okay, mother, you did what you want, so I'm doing what I wish. I think he cares for Talisa, but it's an impulsive, emotional decision that he made after anger, grief, and sex clouded his judgment. I find the character so interesting in that he can turn off his emotions on the battlefield, sic wolves on people, be a supposed tactical wizard, but in his personal life he doesn't have much wisdom. Robb Stark, I gather, is supposed to be a younger man than the actor portraying the character appears to be. He's what? A year or so older than the supposedly 17 year old Jon at most? The actor is at least 25.
After Ned's death, it's Catelyn who holds it together but Robb is destroying his sword on a tree in a fit of despair. It's as if battle is his outlet to hold the emotions at bay. I like the actor himself; I think he does a great job with the material, but a younger actor might have made more sense in terms of the actions of his character.
As for Jon, I think the Lyanna Stark/Targaeryan as biological parents is plausible the more I think about it. When Danaerys was having her visions in the House of the Dying or whatever it was called, she envisioned the Iron Throne room covered in snow. A male Targaeryan would supercede her claim to the throne. Very interesting.
Malta's architecture is very Islamic in appearance, isn't it? Qarth's scenes seem to fit that description. Thanks for the info. HBO must have quite a budget for this with all the exotic location shooting.
I agree that Rob made a grave error in judgment going ahead and marrying Talisa; all I'm saying is that the impulsiveness is earned by how the character's been presented as an emotional man torn being honor and his extreme anger at his mother for letting Jamie Lannister go. Okay, mother, you did what you want, so I'm doing what I wish. I think he cares for Talisa, but it's an impulsive, emotional decision that he made after anger, grief, and sex clouded his judgment. I find the character so interesting in that he can turn off his emotions on the battlefield, sic wolves on people, be a supposed tactical wizard, but in his personal life he doesn't have much wisdom. Robb Stark, I gather, is supposed to be a younger man than the actor portraying the character appears to be. He's what? A year or so older than the supposedly 17 year old Jon at most? The actor is at least 25.
After Ned's death, it's Catelyn who holds it together but Robb is destroying his sword on a tree in a fit of despair. It's as if battle is his outlet to hold the emotions at bay. I like the actor himself; I think he does a great job with the material, but a younger actor might have made more sense in terms of the actions of his character.
As for Jon, I think the Lyanna Stark/Targaeryan as biological parents is plausible the more I think about it. When Danaerys was having her visions in the House of the Dying or whatever it was called, she envisioned the Iron Throne room covered in snow. A male Targaeryan would supercede her claim to the throne. Very interesting.
Malta's architecture is very Islamic in appearance, isn't it? Qarth's scenes seem to fit that description. Thanks for the info. HBO must have quite a budget for this with all the exotic location shooting.
Malta was a filming location in the first season. The second season shifted to Croatia, which proved versatile enough to stand in for Qarth as well as many of the Kings Landing exteriors. The first season had a budget of around $60 million and the second season a budget of around $69 million.
As far as superseding Daenerys' claim goes, any child - male or female - of Rhaegar would automatically supersede her.
That is, she's a daughter of King Aerys, while Rhaegar was the crown prince - he is her brother. In these kind of dynasties, inheritance passes from firstborn son to firstborn son - so a king's grandson would ascend to the throne instead of his secondborn son.
I think Edric Storm is the only bastard he had by a highborn girl. While he didn't marry her, was was required to recognize the child as his - as opposed to say Gendry and Bara.
...which, yeah, is totally something Robb could have done.
That is, she's a daughter of King Aerys, while Rhaegar was the crown prince - he is her brother. In these kind of dynasties, inheritance passes from firstborn son to firstborn son - so a king's grandson would ascend to the throne instead of his secondborn son.
I think Edric Storm is the only bastard he had by a highborn girl. While he didn't marry her, was was required to recognize the child as his - as opposed to say Gendry and Bara.
...which, yeah, is totally something Robb could have done.
I think that is being overly critical of Robert, but in any case her family is pretty much a non-factor. Besides that, he had decided to marry her before he even slept with her.
They're almost exactly the same age. Which would put the characters around 18/19 at the end of Season 2. Robb was conceived during the war, immediately after his parents were married (to cement the Tullys into the rebellion) and born during or right after the war while Ned was still in the south. He came back with the infant Jon shortly after. Of course, since the ages are a little wonky if you try to use the book timeline for the show this may not be entirely accurate for it.
Absolutely. Which is why him being 15 or 16 when these events happened in the book (with a high-born Westerosi whose castle he had just taken and had been tending to his wounds and was likely unknowingly sent to his bed by her father as a honey trap) makes so much more sense.
Her visions as described in the book are a bit more obvious (and a lot more abstract), which is probably why they were toned down so much. Martin does a fantastic job seeding the series with clues without ever really raising the question for people to ask. The show has been much less successful with such subtlety. Seems like everything is either completely spelled out or so subtle as to be pointless to anyone who hasn't read the books.
Man, I want to see Catelyn's reaction when she inevitably finds out that Jon is her husband's nephew as opposed to his bastard son. I rewatched episodes 1 and 2 on live streaming. I'd forgotten how cold she was to Jon. Again, I understand her anger but it's completely misdirected. It should be directed at Ned for his (believed) sins. Pretty presumptuous to bring home your bastard son and expect your wife to raise him. Nothing like a living breathing reminder of your spouse's infidelity to put you in a good mood, but Jon was presented as so meek and polite. It's hard not to judge her a little bit. Not loving him like your own child is one thing, but those looks of hers could kill.
Venardhi, love the theory about Lyanna Stark being Jon's mother.
The bigger problem is Robert. If he found out that Jon was a Targ then Jon would die. Either Robert would order Ned to slaughter the baby himself, or more likely he would order Ned to stand down and let one of the Kingsguard to the killing. Ned would have to choose between murdering his nephew (he isn't going to let anyone else swing the blade, his honor demands that either he does it personally or it doesn't get done) or engage in an open rebellion against his best friend the King. That would be a hard choice to make, but he'd probably choose family over honor in the end and the result would be a giant clusterfuck in which he has to put Jon on the iron throne and name himself regent in order to settle the matter. While there are still pro-Targ loyalists in Westeros, particularly most of Dorne, who would throw their lot in with Jon once his parantage has been revealed, the war would be far more close and costly and bloody than Robert's Rebellion, due to Robert's close alliance with the Lannisters who will support him. More importantly, it would mean that Ned would have to kill his best friend. And he doesn't want to do that, either.
He keeps it a secret from Cat, even though the supposed adultry is a giant sore-spot for her, because one can keep a secret better than two. If she hates him for siring a bastard on some random whore and bringing the kid home, that just sells the cover story all the more. It also means that she won't slip up and accidentally say the wrong thing to the wrong person.
Croatia.
Not necessarily. Rhaegar was never the King. Technically, the order of succession would go Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany, then Rhaegar's children. And her biggest supporter would be Dorne, which gives women equal inheritance rights (a big plot point in later books). Of course, when you've got a civil war. In the current situation the rightful ruler is whomever can kick the most ass and kill the most people, no matter who that may be. Dany currently has a massive advantage in that regard due to being the only person on the planet with air power. It's the same reason Aegon was the rightful ruler of Westeros when he was just some upstart foreigner of middling rank from an unimportant island in the middle of the Narrow Sea.
The snow covering the Iron Throne in a broken keep is less likely to be a metaphore for Jon Snow being the rightful heir and more an accurate vision of one possible future, the one where the White Walkers win at the end of book 6 and book 7 is 1500 pages of a cold wind howling over a desolate lifeless and frozen wasteland.
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