Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

[Reverend]

I don't see it necessarily as a problem. I would if Lara Croft were also depicted as weak, helpless or an accessory to male adventurers. But she is none of the above. I've no problem with bombshell Lara, as some women ARE built like that.

You're kidding, right? Have you actually SEEN a woman in real life who looks like this?

In terms of physique? Yeah, allowing for some interpretive latitude as the games have always upto this point been stylized to one degree of another. Yes they've been creeping closer to photo realism with each successive instalment (and appear to have gotten there with the upcoming reboot) but there's always been a slant towards an almost comic book type of hyper-realism. In short; her tits aren't the only things they exaggerate.

Keep in mind of course that the game isn't even pretending to be realistic. Real ancient ruins do not have fully functional and extremely elaborate mechanised death traps, crazy Atlantian demi-gods or actual living T-Rex's. Real pistols don't have infinite ammunition. Real explorers do not get to gun down dozens of people in third world countries without at least a stern talking to by Interpol. They're action/adventure games and the tone is decidedly James Bond meets Indiana Jones...it just happens to star a female protagonist.

Really now, people really ought to stop using Lara Croft as the poster girl for all that is misogynistic in video games. Aside from being patently false and based on entirely superficial arguments, there are *much* worse offenders out there.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I don't see it necessarily as a problem. I would if Lara Croft were also depicted as weak, helpless or an accessory to male adventurers. But she is none of the above. I've no problem with bombshell Lara, as some women ARE built like that.

You're kidding, right? Have you actually SEEN a woman in real life who looks like this?

In terms of physique? Yes, allowing for some interpretive latitude as the games have always upto this point been stylized to one degree of another.
Keep in mind of course that the game isn't even pretending to be realistic. Real ancient ruins do not have fully functional and extremely elaborate mechanised death traps, crazy Atlantian demi-gods or actual living T-Rex's. Real pistols don't have infinite ammunition. Real explorers do not get to gun down dozens of people in third world countries without at least a stern talking to by Interpol. They're action/adventure games and the tone is decidedly James Bond meets Indiana Jones...it just happens to star a female protagonist.

Really now, people really ought to stop using Lara Croft as the poster girl for all that is misogynistic in video games. Aside from being patently false and based on entirely superficial arguments, there are *much* worse offenders out there.

You're right, there are indeed worse offenders.

The issue is not "realism," it's stereotyping. It is still acceptable in video games to stereotype women to a degree that would be considered embarrassing and even offensive if, say, we were stereotyping a black man rather than a white woman.

Women in games don't have to be "realistic," but some effort to avoid sexist stereotypes would be nice. That's really what the project in the OP is about, anyway.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Word. Since times of old, heroic fiction has been about beautiful women, and ripped, heroic men. Nothing wrong with honoring those tropes. I've no problem with variety, but I do have problems with kowtowing to PC no-fun-niks.

There is a happy medium.

There is indeed. It's called the "Huntress," classically embodied in Atalanta -- the badass Greek heroin who could out-fight any man alive. Various forms of this exist in just about every culture, with varying attributes but the same basic themes.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If you are going to show off beefcake (and many videogames do), there are better, more effective, more MACULINE ways to do it than a particular cut of tank top and Daisy Dukes.

This right here is the problem.

Very few games, if any, "show off beefcake." Many games do not portray men nor women in a realistic fashion but it's the nature of this unrealistic depiction that is inherently sexist. Simply put, male characters have their strength emphasized: they exist to let male players act out power fantasies. Female characters, on the other hand, are typical sexuality and objectified. Men are shown as powerful, women are shown as sexy. As a systemic issue in the games industry (and to a large degree, our media as a whole) this is inherently sexist. There is nothing wrong with making games designed to play up to power fantasies in general but the fact that nearly every game that does this inherently excludes women is a very large problem.

It's not a PROBLEM so much as it is a reflection of human psychology: male characters emphasize their strength because players WANT to be strong. Ironically, the female characters in those same games emphasize their sexuality because, once again, the players WANT to be sexy. The thing that goes over a lot of people's heads is that this is -- more often than you would believe -- the reason why MALE players use the female character in the game as well.

Weak people want to feel strong; strong people want to feel sexy. For people who want BOTH, there's Mass Effect.

 

[Mistral]

For another example, take the new Tomb Raider. For the new game they tried to reinvent Lara Croft with an origin story. The game will have Lara be physical brutalized by her enemies and surroundings, including attempted sexual assaults that she has to fight off. Crystal Dynamics has stated that their intent is to put the player in a position where they feel they need to protect Lara as well as show how she became a strong fighter in the first place. It was not their intent to imply that a woman needs to be brutalized and sexually assault to become strong, but that is exactly what they are doing.

This is actually a very common theme in literature, too.

A powerful woman at the start of a story is always a villain. A female "hero" always starts out weak because male readers need to feel protective first before they can accept female empowerment. They need to see the female weakness first.

There are exceptions of course. But how many times have you seen a wise female Gandalf-like character? How many times have you met a good powerful female character at the start of a story? A wise queen? Yeah, right.

At the start? Not as often, perhaps, as might be warranted. However, until the buying public swings closer to 50/50 gender-wise, we're gonna get scantily clad females in our games-because the buyers are mostly men right now.

 

[Arrqh]

It's not a PROBLEM so much as it is a reflection of human psychology: male characters emphasize their strength because players WANT to be strong. Ironically, the female characters in those same games emphasize their sexuality because, once again, the players WANT to be sexy. The thing that goes over a lot of people's heads is that this is -- more often than you would believe -- the reason why MALE players use the female character in the game as well.

Weak people want to feel strong; strong people want to feel sexy. For people who want BOTH, there's Mass Effect.

No, it is a problem because it's being made for a specific audience... namely young heterosexual males. Again, there's nothing wrong with any particular game going after a particular audience but the fact that the vast majority of mainstream gaming does this makes it a systemic problem. By doing this, women players are intrinsically being excluded and put down and that's pretty indefensible. Women players are essentially told: if you want to be strong you have to be a man, if you want to be a woman you have to be a sex object. Is it really that threatening to the current mainstream audience to have a strong female character who isn't objectified or otherwise put down?

However, until the buying public swings closer to 50/50 gender-wise, we're gonna get scantily clad females in our games-because the buyers are mostly men right now.

Chicken or the egg? As long as games put up barriers to entry towards women they're not going to join the buying public at any real rate. From an ethics perspective, the sex objectification in games is pretty worrying but it's also bad business... potential customers are being turned away.

And games are not just pieces of merchandise to be sold. They are a form of expression. And therefore it's not so crazy to ask "what are we, as a whole, expressing?"

 

[MNM]

And games are not just pieces of merchandise to be sold.

Yeah actually, they are. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking they are anything more.

 

[Arrqh]

And games are not just pieces of merchandise to be sold.

Yeah actually, they are. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking they are anything more.

Naw. If that was true, then the same is true for all film, television, music, literature, theater, etc. Games are not any different from any other form of creative media.

 

[Kelthaz]

male characters emphasize their strength because players WANT to be strong. Ironically, the female characters in those same games emphasize their sexuality because, once again, the players WANT to be sexy. The thing that goes over a lot of people's heads is that this is -- more often than you would believe -- the reason why MALE players use the female character in the game as well.

Male characters emphasize their strength because men WANT to be strong. female characters emphasize their sexuality because men want to look at sexy women. No, men do not play female characters because they want to feel sexy. That's completely ridiculous.

The whole problem is that video games are primarily targeted at a frat boy audience despite being enjoyed by virtually everyone. The funniest thing is that when games do come out that treat women like actual people, they don't suffer in sales. Gamers do like strong female characters, but for some reason we don't get them.

Phantasy Star went on to become Sega's flagship RPG series that rivalled Final Fantasy for a while.
Metroid became Nintendo's third biggest franchise and their #1 hardcore franchise.
Final Fantasy VI is believed to be one of the best in the series.
Beyond Good and Evil was a commercial bomb, but insane cult love and critical acclaim has led to a sequel.
Half Life 2's Alyx Vance is more loved than Gordon Freeman himself.

 

[Tiberius]

Programmers don't generally decide what the women in games look like--that's what the artists do (3D modelers, etc.)

Point taken, but my argument remains the same. Whoever it is that designs these women needs to learn that they can be sexy without being sex objects

is it sad to admit i actually find Telsia Murphy from Elite Force attractive? and more than Lara Croft?

she's actually a realistically proportioned woman and not showing any skin except her face...

I find her quite attractive too. Certainly more attractive than that alien scientist you rescue in EF2, the one who wears a few handkerchiefs tied together. And what's with those other aliens in that game, the ones that have vaginas for ears?

 

[Mistral]

It's not a PROBLEM so much as it is a reflection of human psychology: male characters emphasize their strength because players WANT to be strong. Ironically, the female characters in those same games emphasize their sexuality because, once again, the players WANT to be sexy. The thing that goes over a lot of people's heads is that this is -- more often than you would believe -- the reason why MALE players use the female character in the game as well.

Weak people want to feel strong; strong people want to feel sexy. For people who want BOTH, there's Mass Effect.

No, it is a problem because it's being made for a specific audience... namely young heterosexual males. Again, there's nothing wrong with any particular game going after a particular audience but the fact that the vast majority of mainstream gaming does this makes it a systemic problem. By doing this, women players are intrinsically being excluded and put down and that's pretty indefensible. Women players are essentially told: if you want to be strong you have to be a man, if you want to be a woman you have to be a sex object. Is it really that threatening to the current mainstream audience to have a strong female character who isn't objectified or otherwise put down?

However, until the buying public swings closer to 50/50 gender-wise, we're gonna get scantily clad females in our games-because the buyers are mostly men right now.

Chicken or the egg? As long as games put up barriers to entry towards women they're not going to join the buying public at any real rate. From an ethics perspective, the sex objectification in games is pretty worrying but it's also bad business... potential customers are being turned away.

And games are not just pieces of merchandise to be sold. They are a form of expression. And therefore it's not so crazy to ask "what are we, as a whole, expressing?"

Actually, women are flocking to video games in ever-growing numbers. Don't be surprised if the stats change enough to change the future presentation of female characters in-game fairly soon.

 

[firehawk12]

Actually, women are flocking to video games in ever-growing numbers. Don't be surprised if the stats change enough to change the future presentation of female characters in-game fairly soon.

I don't think this is the case with the 60 dollar console game though. I mean, there's no way to be sure I suppose, but the fact that there has yet to be a cash-in game with Twilight or any other franchise popular with the female demographic seems to show what the industry's priorities are.

Heck, all you need to do is look at E3. Even Nintendo couldn't resist pimping that ZombiU game for the WiiU, since they want to chase the male consumer.

 

[Yminale]

I've noticed that most of the problems with sexist portrayal of women can be traced to one sources JAPAN. Japanese developers seem to be the most responsible (with special notice to Team Ninja). Western developers seem to show women in a more positive light, often as friends/comrades or at least peers to the main male character.

 

[Yminale]

Male characters emphasize their strength because men WANT to be strong. female characters emphasize their sexuality because men want to look at sexy women. No, men do not play female characters because they want to feel sexy. That's completely ridiculous.

You obviously are not familiar with WOW and MMORPG's in general. There are many men who plays as women. It's pretty disturbing actually.

 

[Maurice]

I've noticed that most of the problems with sexist portrayal of women can be traced to one sources JAPAN. Japanese developers seem to be the most responsible (with special notice to Team Ninja). Western developers seem to show women in a more positive light, often as friends/comrades or at least peers to the main male character.

I don't think laying this at the feet of another country is fair or accurate. There's plenty of examples of the treatment of women as sex objects throughout western culture to show that it's endemic in pop culture here, and videogames are just one manifestation of that. That the Japanese might to it even more often doesn't get U.S. and European developers off the hook.

 

[Kelthaz]

Outside of Team Ninja, I don't see any overt sexism in Japanese video games. I think it's mostly because Japanese games rarely strive for realism, so it's hard to be sexist when you're a weird alien thing rolling up a ball to create a new sun.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Male characters emphasize their strength because men WANT to be strong. female characters emphasize their sexuality because men want to look at sexy women. No, men do not play female characters because they want to feel sexy. That's completely ridiculous.

You obviously are not familiar with WOW and MMORPG's in general. There are many men who plays as women. It's pretty disturbing actually.

Actually, what's wrong with that? It's a role-playing game. Pretending to be another species is fine, but not another gender?

 

[Kelthaz]

Also, if you're going to stare at someone's ass for the next few thousand hours, I can understand going with a female avatar. It all goes back to catering towards male tastes.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Male characters emphasize their strength because men WANT to be strong. female characters emphasize their sexuality because men want to look at sexy women. No, men do not play female characters because they want to feel sexy. That's completely ridiculous.

You obviously are not familiar with WOW and MMORPG's in general. There are many men who plays as women. It's pretty disturbing actually.

Yeah. I have...started playing STO. (Please no fleet invites. I don't have the time and am more interested in the Foundry.)

At least personally, I have some guesses about who plays what characters, judging by the appearance of the character.

In-proportion character, male: Odds favor "male," simply because these could be guys playing as "themselves" or an avatar of themselves, but could also be a female who doesn't want the BS judgments associated with a female character--or propositions from the more boorish of the male players. Or even a female whose self-image, for multiple reasons, follows a more "masculine" type--a woman who would prefer not to be distinguished in a group from "one of the guys." She may well have designed the character to be attractive, too, but she is not objectifying him. She hasn't created the character to be gawked at.

In-proportion character, female: I would suspect that of all female characters, these are the most likely to actually be played by women. There may also be some men playing these characters--but you can guess that they are probably not boors. These may be men who expect realism in stories. Scantily-clad characters won't be designed by these men because they have an eye on functionality and appropriateness to the story (i.e.--that lack of armor/clothes wouldn't fly in the environments the character has to go into, so put the lady in a proper, useful uniform like a guy would wear). However, if this character is scantily clad, that is a completely different scenario. Almost certainly a guy, and probably a boor.

Note: In-proportion female characters can be attractive. They do not have to be hags. The type of beauty you see in such a character is more what I'd call elegance and/or gracefulness, rather than raciness.

Out-of-proportion character, female: Yep. That's a guy in disguise. A guy who wants eye candy. A woman is almost certainly not going to play this character. Odds become even more vanishingly small when this character is scantily clad.

Out-of-proportion character, male: This one's tough to call. Odds this impossibly ripped character is a guy who wants to play Rambo. But it could be the beefcake factor, too. This is not anywhere near as common as the problems with female characters, but it can occur.

Just my personal opinions, and I could easily be wrong. And for all of these, there could be more possible reasons than I've suggested.


As far as STO, it does allow for creation of somewhat exaggerated characters, but they do seem to have imposed limits on the players, at least in the breast size department. I wouldn't say the characters get any more out of proportion than Barbie (which is exaggerated, but Barbie is less of an offender than certain anime or MMORPG/video game characters), and if you are uncomfortable with playing a female character that is exaggerated, you are provided the freedom to create one that has much more reasonable proportions. I know I've mentioned breasts as the example of an exaggerated feature in multiple cases here, but STO seems to allow you to give a female CO or bridge officer proportions all the way down to a B or A cup, which I really doubt a lot of video games would allow as an option, judging from the pictures I've seen. (Maybe a Mass Effect player can tell me if the ME series is an exception, with FemShep?)

The clothing situation for women is a bit more disheartening (especially on the KDF side, and I think we know why that is--the KDF demo is skewed more towards guys), but even if you play an Orion female KDF, if you pick carefully, you can put together a reasonably practical outfit that you could imagine would actually protect a female warrior captain in combat. That's certainly better than many MMORPG's out there can say for themselves.

The women's formal clothes are a bit of a disappointment on the Fed side. I would've liked to see an evening gown option to pair with the men's formal suit, rather than only miniskirts and skimpy tops. (Overall, though, I'd say the off-duty clothes just aren't very well developed anyway, and this is rather understandable given that more attention had to be given to uniforms since that's what you spend the vast majority of your time wearing.)


I wonder if, in order to cater to their audience, STO had to be a little more "grown up" when it comes to gender stereotypes? That could actually say something good about us Trek fans.

 

[JRS]

I play both male and female characters in MMOs, like STO and Champions Online. This gives me variety and also opportunity to create different backgrounds stories..plus I happen to like female superheroes.

I think MMO are a good example of games that break the gender stereotypes in gaming, mainly because their evolved character creators and more open worlds.

Playing female toon does sometimes give a small glimpse to me of what some female players must endure from some of the male players.
Once I was in Champions with my female hero and one other player started making some remarks about her breasts, in a not so polite manner. Since my toon has fire related powers, I basically told him that I would "burn his nuts" if he would not behave..