The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

[C.E. Evans]

A term that could have been coined by others before Kirk.

The key word in what we're debating here is "experiment".

Not really. The Excelsior is still a new design, so the term would still apply with or without transwarp.

And we actually don't know if Kirk is still Chief of Operations by Star Trek III. In Star Trek II, he was actually acting more like the Commandant of the Academy.

I would bet the intent is that Kirk is still Chief of Operations, he has knowledge and access to Project Genesis and seems to be in the know about the development and timetable for the Excelsior-class. At this point, he is probably serving as a command mentor to Spock.

I think the Chief of Operations has better things to do than to hang around the Academy, oversee a cadet taking the Kobayashi Maru test, and then going aboard a cadet cruise. But it would be befitting the Academy commandant.

And wouldn't most admirals of Kirk's rank have access to classified material upon request?

Which would support it being a ship he's heard about but has never seen in person before.

Which supports it being one of a kind.

Not really, just the first one of its kind he's ever seen.

 

[C.E. Evans]

But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.

Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?

Nothing but onscreen stuff:

• The fact that there were three more NX-class ships being built while NX-01 was essentially on her maiden voyage.
• Two other Galaxy-class ships in service alongside the Enterprise-D while the design was still considered fairly new within the fleet.
• Other Defiant-class ships in service alongside the Defiant.

 

[BillJ]

And wouldn't most admirals of Kirk's rank have access to classified material upon request?

Not unless it's considered necessary for them to do their jobs. Project Genesis was a delicate situation, a commandant may know of it but wouldn't have access to hard data regarding the project.

Even in corporate America, a VP of Operations may have a general knowledge of what's going on in Finance. But he wouldn't have security clearance to go in and read their documentation at their leisure.

Kirk is still the Chief of Operations with that type of clearance.

 

[C.E. Evans]

And wouldn't most admirals of Kirk's rank have access to classified material upon request?

Not unless it's considered necessary for them to do their jobs. Project Genesis was a delicate situation, a commandant may know of it but wouldn't have access to hard data regarding the project.

I disagree. Within Starfleet, it seems if you have a high enough security clearance, you can access pretty much anything, especially if you're a flag officer.

I think there's more than enough evidence to support the idea of Kirk as being with the Academy by the time of Star Trek II.

 

[BillJ]

But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.

Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?

Nothing but onscreen stuff:

• The fact that there were three more NX-class ships being built while NX-01 was essentially on her maiden voyage.
• Two other Galaxy-class ships in service alongside the Enterprise-D while the design was still considered fairly new within the fleet.
• Other Defiant-class ships in service alongside the Defiant.

Once again, all of them were using engines that weren't quantum leaps over what came before. Transwarp is suppose to be a technological leap and I'm sure that the class was built around it. Power conduits had to be created that could handle the amount of power that flows through based on the obviously much larger power plant and warp nacelles.

You don't begin mass production until your sure the basic components of the design actually work. It's silly.

*When the Galaxy-class Enterprise launched, we have no idea how long the U.S.S. Galaxy had been in service nor do we know how long her trial runs were.

*The Defiant got an extended shakedown at Deep Space Nine before we began seeing others appear.

*Since the NX-02 was still being constructed four years after the launch of NX-01, I imagine they at least made sure the ship worked in trial runs before ordering more.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?

Nothing but onscreen stuff:

• The fact that there were three more NX-class ships being built while NX-01 was essentially on her maiden voyage.
• Two other Galaxy-class ships in service alongside the Enterprise-D while the design was still considered fairly new within the fleet.
• Other Defiant-class ships in service alongside the Defiant.

Once again, all of them were using engines that weren't quantum leaps over what came before. Transwarp is suppose to be a technological leap and I'm sure that the class was built around it. Power conduits had to be created that could handle the amount of power that flows through based on the obviously much larger power plant and warp nacelles.

You don't begin mass production until your sure the basic components of the design actually work. It's silly.

In your opinion, perhaps, but onscreen evidence would seem to suggest otherwise as Starfleet seems to crank out multiple ships of a new design relatively quickly. But for all intents and purposes, all that's required for a new design to enter mass production is proof that it's spaceworthy and warp-capable.

*When the Galaxy-class Enterprise launched, we have no idea how long the U.S.S. Galaxy had been in service nor do we know how long her trial runs were.

Which doesn't take away from the fact that the design was still considered relatively new by the time the Enterprise-D was launched.

*The Defiant got an extended shakedown at Deep Space Nine before we began seeing others appear.

And the same could apply to other designs. By the time a prototype ship enters service, the design has already met its expected capabilities and all that's left is to see how far they can go.

*Since the NX-02 was still being constructed four years after the launch of NX-01, I imagine they at least made sure the ship worked in trial runs before ordering more.

The same could be said for the Excelsior-class. For all we know, the basic design had already been proven as sound by the time of Star Trek III.

 

[Shane Houston]

Nothing but onscreen stuff:

• The fact that there were three more NX-class ships being built while NX-01 was essentially on her maiden voyage.
• Two other Galaxy-class ships in service alongside the Enterprise-D while the design was still considered fairly new within the fleet.
• Other Defiant-class ships in service alongside the Defiant.

Once again, all of them were using engines that weren't quantum leaps over what came before. Transwarp is suppose to be a technological leap and I'm sure that the class was built around it. Power conduits had to be created that could handle the amount of power that flows through based on the obviously much larger power plant and warp nacelles.

You don't begin mass production until your sure the basic components of the design actually work. It's silly.

In your opinion, perhaps, but onscreen evidence would seem to suggest otherwise as Starfleet seems to crank out multiple ships of a new design relatively quickly. But for all intents and purposes, all that's required for a new design to enter mass production is proof that it's spaceworthy and warp-capable.

Which doesn't take away from the fact that the design was still considered relatively new by the time the Enterprise-D was launched.

*The Defiant got an extended shakedown at Deep Space Nine before we began seeing others appear.

And the same could apply to other designs. By the time a prototype ship enters service, the design has already met its expected capabilities and all that's left is to see how far they can go.

*Since the NX-02 was still being constructed four years after the launch of NX-01, I imagine they at least made sure the ship worked in trial runs before ordering more.

The same could be said for the Excelsior-class. For all we know, the basic design had already been proven as sound by the time of Star Trek III.

Actually it couldn't have, and there's more on screen evidence to say it wasn't than was. The Great Experiment was a failure. Which means at the time of Star Trek III they didn't know that yet and the design was not proven.

 

[Timo]

The interesting thing here is that the Excelsior was in production before transwarp had been tested - namely, NX-2000 had been completed. Not just thrown together to perform experiments on transwarp, but completed. As in, she even had all her guns fitted.

What is singularly uninteresting is the fate of the former crew of the Yorktown. It just isn't relevant or realistic to worry about what happens to the "former crew" of a starship; in the real world, no such thing even exists, and personnel are constantly being shuffled between vessels and other assignments. If the skipper of the Yorktown is told to move to another assignment because Kirk needs his or her ship, and he or she complains, that only goes to show that he or she is not fit to serve in Starfleet. Or in any real-world military at least. Or basically any other real-world organization, for that matter.

*When the Galaxy-class Enterprise launched, we have no idea how long the U.S.S. Galaxy had been in service nor do we know how long her trial runs were.

Yet the skippers of both USS Enterprise and USS Yamato were convinced that the class could still be a complete dud as late as the start of the second season of TNG, in "Contagion".

It's not particularly rare to build major ships in batches without allocating any time for testing. If you wait for the Bismarck to finish trial runs before you commit to building the Tirpitz, you have already lost everything because the second ship will certainly be outdated by the time of her launching, and the subcontractors who worked on the first ship will have lost their special expertise and supplies in the meantime, immensely increasing the expenses. It's much better to build four duds, reaping the full benefits of "mass" (or at least optimally synchronized) production, and then simultaneously fix them all if and when the need arises.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Once again, all of them were using engines that weren't quantum leaps over what came before. Transwarp is suppose to be a technological leap and I'm sure that the class was built around it. Power conduits had to be created that could handle the amount of power that flows through based on the obviously much larger power plant and warp nacelles.

You don't begin mass production until your sure the basic components of the design actually work. It's silly.

In your opinion, perhaps, but onscreen evidence would seem to suggest otherwise as Starfleet seems to crank out multiple ships of a new design relatively quickly. But for all intents and purposes, all that's required for a new design to enter mass production is proof that it's spaceworthy and warp-capable.

Which doesn't take away from the fact that the design was still considered relatively new by the time the Enterprise-D was launched.

And the same could apply to other designs. By the time a prototype ship enters service, the design has already met its expected capabilities and all that's left is to see how far they can go.

*Since the NX-02 was still being constructed four years after the launch of NX-01, I imagine they at least made sure the ship worked in trial runs before ordering more.

The same could be said for the Excelsior-class. For all we know, the basic design had already been proven as sound by the time of Star Trek III.

Actually it couldn't have, and there's more on screen evidence to say it wasn't than was.

I disagree with that. In fact, with onscreen evidence from other Trek shows, it's completely plausible that other Excelsior-class ships were in various stages of construction at the time of Star Trek III.

The Great Experiment was a failure.

Maybe transwarp, but not the Excelsior-class design.

Which means at the time of Star Trek III they didn't know that yet and the design was not proven.

The only thing that can be argued is that they didn't know how well the transwarp drive works, but it says nothing about the Excelsior-class design in general. Given how many Excelsior-class ships would be ultimately built and how long they would remain in service, I'd say that the Excelsior-class probably met and exceeded all of its other capabilities.

 

[SeerSGB]

The interesting thing here is that the Excelsior was in production before transwarp had been tested - namely, NX-2000 had been completed. Not just thrown together to perform experiments on transwarp, but completed. As in, she even had all her guns fitted.

What is singularly uninteresting is the fate of the former crew of the Yorktown. It just isn't relevant or realistic to worry about what happens to the "former crew" of a starship; in the real world, no such thing even exists, and personnel are constantly being shuffled between vessels and other assignments. If the skipper of the Yorktown is told to move to another assignment because Kirk needs his or her ship, and he or she complains, that only goes to show that he or she is not fit to serve in Starfleet. Or in any real-world military at least. Or basically any other real-world organization, for that matter.

And really you're not talking swapping out all 400+ crew; just the CO and XO and the Department Heads. Not even a dozen people tops. So even if it is Yorktown, and some of the crew on board might get bitchy that their ship got renamed, it's really not that major of a issue. Plus, maybe not every Captain is as attached to his ship as Kirk. Maybe they are just assigments and nothing more: "Oh I have to transfer out to a new command? When and where...and tell Kirk the deck shimmies when she hits warp 5 and we never did get the damn log-recorder to work right after that last software patch"

 

[Shane Houston]

In your opinion, perhaps, but onscreen evidence would seem to suggest otherwise as Starfleet seems to crank out multiple ships of a new design relatively quickly. But for all intents and purposes, all that's required for a new design to enter mass production is proof that it's spaceworthy and warp-capable.

Which doesn't take away from the fact that the design was still considered relatively new by the time the Enterprise-D was launched.

And the same could apply to other designs. By the time a prototype ship enters service, the design has already met its expected capabilities and all that's left is to see how far they can go.

The same could be said for the Excelsior-class. For all we know, the basic design had already been proven as sound by the time of Star Trek III.

Actually it couldn't have, and there's more on screen evidence to say it wasn't than was.

I disagree with that. In fact, with onscreen evidence from other Trek shows, it's completely plausible that other Excelsior-class ships were in various stages of construction at the time of Star Trek III.

The Great Experiment was a failure.

Maybe transwarp, but not the Excelsior-class design.

Which means at the time of Star Trek III they didn't know that yet and the design was not proven.

The only thing that can be argued is that they didn't know how well the transwarp drive works, but it says nothing about the Excelsior-class design in general. Given how many Excelsior-class ships would be ultimately built and how long they would remain in service, I'd say that the Excelsior-class probably met and exceeded all of its other capabilities.

Again I respectfully disagree with that last statement. The class was indeed a success for the TNG era. That much we know for sure. At the time of Treks 2-6 not so much. Because I believe that if there were in fact other Excelsior class ships either built or in the process of being built we would have had an Excelsior class Enterprise-A in 2286 instead of the Enterprise-B 7 years later.

I think that Starfleet would have kept the name Enterprise for the best they had. And in 2286 the Connie refit design was still one of the best. They weren't going to call a Miranda or an Oberth Enterprise. The Constellation class was a light cruiser not a heavy cruiser. If there were as many Excelsior class ships out there as you suggest (in universe) there would be no doubt that one would be named Enterprise.

 

[Shane Houston]

The interesting thing here is that the Excelsior was in production before transwarp had been tested - namely, NX-2000 had been completed. Not just thrown together to perform experiments on transwarp, but completed. As in, she even had all her guns fitted.

What is singularly uninteresting is the fate of the former crew of the Yorktown. It just isn't relevant or realistic to worry about what happens to the "former crew" of a starship; in the real world, no such thing even exists, and personnel are constantly being shuffled between vessels and other assignments. If the skipper of the Yorktown is told to move to another assignment because Kirk needs his or her ship, and he or she complains, that only goes to show that he or she is not fit to serve in Starfleet. Or in any real-world military at least. Or basically any other real-world organization, for that matter.

And really you're not talking swapping out all 400+ crew; just the CO and XO and the Department Heads. Not even a dozen people tops. So even if it is Yorktown, and some of the crew on board might get bitchy that their ship got renamed, it's really not that major of a issue. Plus, maybe not every Captain is as attached to his ship as Kirk. Maybe they are just assigments and nothing more: "Oh I have to transfer out to a new command? When and where...and tell Kirk the deck shimmies when she hits warp 5 and we never did get the damn log-recorder to work right after that last software patch"

In every Trek series from TOS to even the reboot 2009 Trek the ships have meant a lot to each commander. Archer, Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway saw their ships as something personal. Yeah the Yorktown CO could have not been one to care and the crew a bit bitchy but I would think not.

And in Star Trek V the Admiral comments that the Enterprise isn't up to specs yet, which tells me that is new and on it's shakedown cruise.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Actually it couldn't have, and there's more on screen evidence to say it wasn't than was.

I disagree with that. In fact, with onscreen evidence from other Trek shows, it's completely plausible that other Excelsior-class ships were in various stages of construction at the time of Star Trek III.

Maybe transwarp, but not the Excelsior-class design.

Which means at the time of Star Trek III they didn't know that yet and the design was not proven.

The only thing that can be argued is that they didn't know how well the transwarp drive works, but it says nothing about the Excelsior-class design in general. Given how many Excelsior-class ships would be ultimately built and how long they would remain in service, I'd say that the Excelsior-class probably met and exceeded all of its other capabilities.

Again I respectfully disagree with that last statement. The class was indeed a success for the TNG era. That much we know for sure. At the time of Treks 2-6 not so much. Because I believe that if there were in fact other Excelsior class ships either built or in the process of being built we would have had an Excelsior class Enterprise-A in 2286 instead of the Enterprise-B 7 years later.

I see no reason to believe that. Truthfully, I think the Excelsior-class probably was considered a successful spaceframe design fairly early on and it already merited a variant by the time of the Enterprise-B.

I think that Starfleet would have kept the name Enterprise for the best they had. And in 2286 the Connie refit design was still one of the best. They weren't going to call a Miranda or an Oberth Enterprise. The Constellation class was a light cruiser not a heavy cruiser. If there were as many Excelsior class ships out there as you suggest (in universe) there would be no doubt that one would be named Enterprise.

But I think it would have been far more symbolic and "crowd-pleasing" to have another Constitution-class ship at the time. After the Enterprise-A and the standing down of Kirk and his crew, Starfleet had no problems assigning the name to an Excelsior-class.

And in Star Trek V the Admiral comments that the Enterprise isn't up to specs yet, which tells me that is new and on it's shakedown cruise.

Which could apply to both new and recently refitted ships with new systems.

More I think about it, if Yorktown had been severely crippled by the Whalesong Probe, that might explain the state she was in after she had been renamed Enterprise-A.

 

[BillJ]

More I think about it, if Yorktown had been severely crippled by the Whalesong Probe, that might explain the state she was in after she had been renamed Enterprise-A.

Why would she be any more crippled than other vessels subjected to the "whale song"?

 

[BillJ]

By-the-by...

Kirk doesn't say any variation of "transwarp drive, the Great Experiment", he says, "My friends, the Great Experiment, the Excelsior". That to me points that the ship itself is unique.

Timo,

Unless I'm misremembering the film, there is no hint that she is armed. Just that she is supposedly fast and has a tractor beam.

 

[Timo]

In every Trek series from TOS to even the reboot 2009 Trek the ships have meant a lot to each commander.

Which doesn't mean they would be entitled into thinking these are "their" ships. Their employer still owns them down to the last rivet.

However, in TOS we only observed a single mission (lasting five years); in VOY, we saw a stranded ship. Transfers no doubt would have followed at the conclusion of these events, but we're biased because of the nature of what we saw. Sisko in turn went through ships like changing shirts; it's just that the Defiant was a bit tougher than the others and lasted longer.

It's really only TNG that shows us a truly unrealistic case of the same people being stuck on the same ship for the better part of a decade, and in some flash-forwards even longer. We did see two attempts to get Picard off the ship, and three to get Riker to move forward, but these came to naught. Yet Picard was explicitly positioned on the top ship of the Federation. Kirk, for all his reputation, never seemed to operate anything more than a run-of-the-mill cruiser - no "flagship" nonsense, no preferred status. He shouldn't have been protected from realistic crew transfers...

...And he wasn't. He was off the ship as soon as TOS ended, apparently. And back only because he wrangled some Starfleet arms. And then off again. And then back for a birthday joyride. And then he could only get back by committing theft and treason. Hardly an example of the standard Starfleet way of treating transfers.

Unless I'm misremembering the film, there is no hint that she is armed. Just that she is supposedly fast and has a tractor beam.

We can see that the ship has all the guns mounted; those are a visible kind of detailing. And we can see she's painted pretty and all. Starfleet finished that ship apparently before fully testing whether transwarp worked.

...Although only if we assume that transwarp did not work. And we have no real reason to assume that. For all we know, transwarp was already a splendid success, NX-2000 was the sixteenth vessel to successfully enter transwarp in 2273, and she was subsequently fitted with full operational gear such as phasers, while ten of her sister ships were doing their pre-commissioning trial runs or maiden voyages.

And Scotty just happened to be way behind times and dead wrong in his professional estimate. Which isn't much of a wonder, considering how he apparently voluntarily got stuck on an ancient training ship instead of doing any proper engineering work in the 2270s or 2280s.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

More I think about it, if Yorktown had been severely crippled by the Whalesong Probe, that might explain the state she was in after she had been renamed Enterprise-A.

Why would she be any more crippled than other vessels subjected to the "whale song"?

I don't think she would. I think they were all crippled generally the same way.

By-the-by...

Kirk doesn't say any variation of "transwarp drive, the Great Experiment", he says, "My friends, the Great Experiment, the Excelsior". That to me points that the ship itself is unique.

It can also be taken as she's the first ship of her class.

 

[Shane Houston]

In every Trek series from TOS to even the reboot 2009 Trek the ships have meant a lot to each commander.

Which doesn't mean they would be entitled into thinking these are "their" ships. Their employer still owns them down to the last rivet.

However, in TOS we only observed a single mission (lasting five years); in VOY, we saw a stranded ship. Transfers no doubt would have followed at the conclusion of these events, but we're biased because of the nature of what we saw. Sisko in turn went through ships like changing shirts; it's just that the Defiant was a bit tougher than the others and lasted longer.

It's really only TNG that shows us a truly unrealistic case of the same people being stuck on the same ship for the better part of a decade, and in some flash-forwards even longer. We did see two attempts to get Picard off the ship, and three to get Riker to move forward, but these came to naught. Yet Picard was explicitly positioned on the top ship of the Federation. Kirk, for all his reputation, never seemed to operate anything more than a run-of-the-mill cruiser - no "flagship" nonsense, no preferred status. He shouldn't have been protected from realistic crew transfers...

...And he wasn't. He was off the ship as soon as TOS ended, apparently. And back only because he wrangled some Starfleet arms. And then off again. And then back for a birthday joyride. And then he could only get back by committing theft and treason. Hardly an example of the standard Starfleet way of treating transfers.

Unless I'm misremembering the film, there is no hint that she is armed. Just that she is supposedly fast and has a tractor beam.

We can see that the ship has all the guns mounted; those are a visible kind of detailing. And we can see she's painted pretty and all. Starfleet finished that ship apparently before fully testing whether transwarp worked.

...Although only if we assume that transwarp did not work. And we have no real reason to assume that. For all we know, transwarp was already a splendid success, NX-2000 was the sixteenth vessel to successfully enter transwarp in 2273, and she was subsequently fitted with full operational gear such as phasers, while ten of her sister ships were doing their pre-commissioning trial runs or maiden voyages.

And Scotty just happened to be way behind times and dead wrong in his professional estimate. Which isn't much of a wonder, considering how he apparently voluntarily got stuck on an ancient training ship instead of doing any proper engineering work in the 2270s or 2280s.

Timo Saloniemi

You missed my point. I wasn't referring to crews or missions or even being about commanding a flagship. Each of the captains see their vessel as something tangible, almost human and alive. Kirk saying he already has a lady and her name is Enterprise. Picard being sentimental over his first command the Stargazer. Ben Sisko who loved the orginal Defiant so much he claims that the Sao Paulo has big shoes to fill and even going as far as getting to know the new ship and saying hello to it. Janeway in the Year Of Hell refusing to abandon Voyager because she saw it as a part of her family. Jonathan Archer, who's ships engines were designed by his father is connected to NX 01. And in Star Trek 2009 Captain Pike before he leaves in the shuttle telling Spock to take care of her she's brand new. The ships meant something because it was their way of making a difference. Hell even Scotty when he had a chance, who had served on two Enterprises and was at the launch of another picks the TOS bridge to visit, where Picard proclaims his love of the old Stargazer.

 

[Timo]

Each of the captains see their vessel as something tangible, almost human and alive.

But due to their profession, they simply have to be capable of transferring their affectations to the next vessel when they themselves get transferred.

It cannot be a rare event, and it doesn't seem plausible Starfleet would in any way acknowledge the perverse love its skippers feel towards the government hardware. If anything, any overt expression of such attachment would be followed by disciplinary action, almost certainly beginning with a transfer!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shane Houston]

Each of the captains see their vessel as something tangible, almost human and alive.

But due to their profession, they simply have to be capable of transferring their affectations to the next vessel when they themselves get transferred.

It cannot be a rare event, and it doesn't seem plausible Starfleet would in any way acknowledge the perverse love its skippers feel towards the government hardware. If anything, any overt expression of such attachment would be followed by disciplinary action, almost certainly beginning with a transfer!

Timo Saloniemi

Um I don't think so since most of those who are high ups at Starfleet Command have served on or commanded their own ships. The Chief Of Starfleet operations gives Sisko special dispensation to change Sao Paulo to Defiant and when Sisko got sentimental about it I didn't see Admiral Ross throwing Sisko into the brig.