Warhammer 40k vs Star Trek

[Mith]

A wormhole opens up between the 40k Universe and the Star Trek (Prime) Universe. After just two months of contact, relations head south and the Cult of the Emperor declares the UFP to be heretics and prepare an immediate crusade against the Federation.

The IoM already have an established base in the (vacant) system that the wormhole is located in, let's say on the border of Federation space, in neutral territory.

Timeline wise, this is most current for the IoM and for the UFP, this is say, ten years after the Dominion War ended.

Can the Imperium of Man successfully conquer the Federation?

 

[Hound of UIster]

Not if the Federation allies with the Galactic Empire.

 

[Mith]

No Star Wars in this debate. =)

 

[Admiral2]

No Star Wars in this debate. =)

Then no. The Federation is f***ed, just like in any objective contest between it and a military populated by soldiers and not by global warming researchers.

 

[Silent_Bob]

A wormhole opens up between the 40k Universe and the Star Trek (Prime) Universe. After just two months of contact, relations head south and the Cult of the Emperor declares the UFP to be heretics and prepare an immediate crusade against the Federation.

The IoM already have an established base in the (vacant) system that the wormhole is located in, let's say on the border of Federation space, in neutral territory.

Timeline wise, this is most current for the IoM and for the UFP, this is say, ten years after the Dominion War ended.

Can the Imperium of Man successfully conquer the Federation?

Yes and easily, even without factoring in the Imperiums technological superiority. The Imperium has a vast amount of resources, isn't at all worried about casualties and will annihilate worlds without hesitation.

The Federation on the other hand is restricted by their ethics.

 

[Mith]

No Star Wars in this debate. =)

Then no. The Federation is f***ed, just like in any objective contest between it and a military populated by soldiers and not by global warming researchers.

Oh good, then there will be debating after all.

Yes and easily, even without factoring in the Imperiums technological superiority.

I'd have to disagree with you there. If anything, Starfleet has far superior technology, even if their weapon designs aren't all that practical at times.

The Imperium has a vast amount of resources,

True, true.

isn't at all worried about casualties and will annihilate worlds without hesitation.

...What? That's not true. Not at all. The most casual man to consider Exterminatus was the Inquisitor involved against the tyranid from the lower part of the galaxy. And he I believe, is on trial for his scorch and burn tactics that he employed against the Tyranids as a means of robbing them of their net gain of bio-mass from invading a planet.

The Federation on the other hand is restricted by their ethics.

...

Kirk: The Klingons should all die.

Picard: The Borg should all die.

Sisko: The Borg should all die.

Janeway: 8472 should be assimilated by the Borg.

Section 31: The Founders should all die.

Sisko: Killing a thief, a Romulan ambassador, and starting a war between two sovereign nations (thus violating General Order One) is something I can live with. And then cover up.

Admiral Ross: I will willing assist Section 31 in defaming a Romulan politician to save the Federation.

Federation Council & Admiral & Science Team: Let's forcibly relocate the defenseless Baku! For science!

Scene from Arena:

*explosions all around*

Spock: Captain, these aliens appear to be hostile. Perhaps we should try and reason with them and bridge the misunderstanding between our two people and--

Kirk: Mr. Kelowitz, hand me that antimatter grenade launcher.

Kirk I'll overlook, but Picard and Janeway both made incredibly genocidal actions against two species that they both saw as a threat to themselves. Janeway's even has the cream of it helping her crew get through Borg space unmolested. Section 31 actually infected the Founders with a deadly disease and even Sisko said he wouldn't give them the cure for obvious reasons.

They may be moral, but that isn't the same as lacking teeth.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If anything, Starfleet has far superior technology

And more importantly, they know how to use and repair it. Technology in the W40K universe is breaking down all the time, and there is nobody left who understands it enough to repair it (except maybe the tech-priests). Nobody knows how anything works, and if something breaks down, it's gone for good.

I would also say that Starfleet's sense of morality and ethics will allow it to win. The Imperium of Man is possibly the cruelest, most evil, most bloody regime that has ever existed in fiction. It makes the Party from Nineteen Eighty-Four look like MLP. There is not a single shred of human decency left in the Imperium. An individual human life literally HAS NO MEANING there. Literally all the Imperium ever does is fight, and throw its billions of people's lives away. No government like that can possibly endure.

The Federation may have to ally itself with the Tau, but if that's what it takes, fine. Together they can crush the Imperium. Or, better yet, inspire the population to revolt.

(Ironically, in W40K the Emperor of Mankind would be absolutely horrified at what his empire has turned into. He would have never wanted things to get this bad.)

 

[Mith]

I wouldn't say that the Imperium is entirely that bad. They're bad, I'll grant you that, but they do what they do out of necessity. With Chaos, Orks, the Necrons, and the Tyranids and of course, the difficulty in maintaining their large, bloated empire, they have to be rather ruthless, for the good of the Imperium.

In regards to their technology, it appears that their technology is slowly advancing in some areas and is regressing in others.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They're bad, I'll grant you that, but they do what they do out of necessity. With Chaos, Orks, the Necrons, and the Tyranids and of course, the difficulty in maintaining their large, bloated empire, they have to be rather ruthless, for the good of the Imperium.

There's not any government that has ever existed - real or fictional - which HAS to be 'ruthless'. There is always another way.

Look at the Commonwealth from Andromeda, for example. Weren't they supposed to be about the same size as the Imperium? And yet, aside from being conquered (temporarily) by the Nietzscheans, the Commonwealth seemed fairly benevolent.

The Imperium, on the other hand...even Hitler would tell them to lighten up.

 

[Mith]

Oh, it's not the right way, I agree. But it is the easiest way and because of how far away everything is and with so much shit they have to deal with, their uppers can't really keep track of everything and everyone. Nor do they care to spend time and resources looking in how to cure people from chaos possession or corruption. Their response to curing someone includes a cigarette and a Winchester.

In regards to Hitler, he'd probably be mortified at the sort of insanity that goes on in the Imperium.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here's another reason I think the Federation could win: Individual worlds in the Imperium are so massively, completely and irrevocably polluted (Earth in the W40K universe, for example, has absolutely no water or plant/animal life that I'm aware of. Probably this is commonplace in the Imperium) that citizens are likely to begin dying off in large numbers. If the Federation steps in with terraforming technology...that could be a powerful advantage.

 

[timothy]

Now who is the imperium going with space marines or imperial guard that is important for any battle situation also on the federation's side is the starship captain human?

 

[Caliburn24]

In ground combat and a war of attrition the IoM would almost certainly win. Luckily Starfleet still has a handful of captains and admirals with a certain strategic military sense who rapidly understand this fact.

So, using Starfleet's vastly more advanced starships they launch an attack on the universe connecting wormhole and collapse it for good. The war is over before it can truly begin.

However, if the wormhole is indestructible things go from bad to worse for the Federation. The IoM is not stupid, they would immediately make contact with the Federation's natural enemies and begin acquiring Trek technology. Once the IoM has relearned(they lost it in some ancient AI war in Warhammer's history) how to make advanced computers and replicators there is no chance for the Federation.

Starfleet has a window of a couple of months, maybe a year in which to find victory, after that the result becomes inevitable.

 

[Admiral2]

The Federation has more advanced technology?

Let's take a look at history to see how much that matters:

VIETNAM: The US is more technologically advanced than the Viet Cong, yet the Viet Cong prevents any kind of strategic victory by the US on the battlefield and helps the north win a political victory anyway.

AFGHANISTAN: The Soviet Union was more technologically advanced than the mujaheddin. They also spent the same amount time there trying to win. They also suffered a political defeat.

AFGHANISTAN: The US is more technologically advanced than the Taliban. We went in in 2001. We're still there.

Tech don't beat determination and sneakiness. Add in the fact that the Fed military is run by Greenpeace, and the Federation is, as I said, f***ed.

 

[Mith]

In ground combat and a war of attrition the IoM would almost certainly win.

How do you figure?A war of attrition would require more and more ships elseware. And ships don't come quickly or cheap in the Imperium. A war of attrition is the very last thing the Imperium would want.

So, using Starfleet's vastly more advanced starships they launch an attack on the universe connecting wormhole and collapse it for good. The war is over before it can truly begin.

No collapsing the wormhole.

However, if the wormhole is indestructible things go from bad to worse for the Federation. The IoM is not stupid, they would immediately make contact with the Federation's natural enemies and begin acquiring Trek technology.

...What?

Okay, first off.

I highly doubt that the even the UFP's enemies are going to sell them down the river, because they all know who'd be next on the list of the xenophobic, tyrannical, imperial expansionists whose idea of a good alien is one whose been deep roasted.

Second, even if they were going to give the Imperium Star Trek technology, it sure as hell isn't going to be new. These antagonistic powers just don't share technology with each other willy nilly.

Third, even if they did sell them some sort of technology, it isn't going to be new. It's going to be outdated pieces of trash. We're talking about leftovers even the Cardassians wouldn't touch--the people whose mainline ships are maybe a match for the outdated Excelsiors.

Once the IoM has relearned(they lost it in some ancient AI war in Warhammer's history) how to make advanced computers and replicators there is no chance for the Federation.

Which brings me to fourth, that being; they'd still need a massive, massive revamp of their entire industry and their warfleet. And this is assuming they can reverse engineer their technology or even try to. I can't for the life of me recalling the Imperium reverse engineering Tau technology in mass to instantly screw them over.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Federation has more advanced technology?

Let's take a look at history to see how much that matters:

VIETNAM: The US is more technologically advanced than the Viet Cong, yet the Viet Cong prevents any kind of strategic victory by the US on the battlefield and helps the north win a political victory anyway.

AFGHANISTAN: The Soviet Union was more technologically advanced than the mujaheddin. They also spent the same amount time there trying to win. They also suffered a political defeat.

AFGHANISTAN: The US is more technologically advanced than the Taliban. We went in in 2001. We're still there.

Tech don't beat determination and sneakiness. Add in the fact that the Fed military is run by Greenpeace, and the Federation is, as I said, f***ed.

We get it, you don't like hippies, tree huggers or whale lovers.

Still, in spite of singing Kumbaya and eating tofu, the Federation seems to be able to defeat sneaky determined Warrior cultures with equal, lesser or greater tech on a regular basis. And I assume that neither the Imperium nor the Federation has a "homecourt advantage" in this scenario, which was a factor in the wars you mentioned .

 

[Mith]

The Federation has more advanced technology?

Let's take a look at history to see how much that matters:

VIETNAM: The US is more technologically advanced than the Viet Cong, yet the Viet Cong prevents any kind of strategic victory by the US on the battlefield and helps the north win a political victory anyway.

...And? The technological gap between the US and Vietnam is not nearly as large as the gap between the UFP and the Imperium.

AFGHANISTAN: The Soviet Union was more technologically advanced than the mujaheddin. They also spent the same amount time there trying to win. They also suffered a political defeat.

Uh-huh, noted.

AFGHANISTAN: The US is more technologically advanced than the Taliban. We went in in 2001. We're still there.

The Taliban aren't exactly fighting a straight up war, are they? They're made up of small celled groups that make raids on the US troops in the area (or wish to). This isn't the same as being a military power.

Tech don't beat determination and sneakiness.

Uh, yeah, yes it can. Because the technological advantage that Starfleet has over the Imperium is far greater than the US and the Taliban. It's far wider than 2012 US and any power during World War I.

Add in the fact that the Fed military is run by Greenpeace, and the Federation is, as I said, f***ed.

Yeah...no they aren't. They're much nicer and moral than any real military is, but they, as I've said, have some very sharp nasty teeth when they want to. In regards to being run...let's see just how that works with admirals, shall we?

Admiral Catwright: Conspired with elements of the Klingon Military to assassinate the current Chancellor to end peace talks and to provoke a war the Klingons couldn't win, even at the risk of the Enterprise and their crew.

Admiral Pressman: Was involved in an illegal Starfleet phase cloak R&D project that went tits up. After covering it up as a captain, he later went back as an admiral to try and retrieve the project. He had superiors that approved of said project.

Admiral Alynna Nechayev: Ordered Captain Picard to forcibly remove colonists for the sake of a peace treaty. In the same breath, rebuked him for not using a ~16 year old as a weapon of genocide against the Borg.

Admiral Ross: Personally assisted Section 31 in removing a Romulan political official to ensure that Starfleet's mole kept the Romulans in the war with the Dominion.

Federation Council: Approved of forcibly removing the Baki or whatever they were called in Insurrection for the sake of medical research--backed down only when the Enterprise revealed the plot to the public.

And that's just the admirals and that's just off the top of my head. And most of those have had serious support within the Federation. Others have even gone rogue, like the one admiral who tried to put the Federation under military dictatorship until the Dominion had been dealt with.


And if we're going to start punching holes in military procedures...well, the Imperium still thinks that they're fighting World War II. Starfleet is going to steamroll the Imperium on the ground.

 

[captcalhoun]

The Feds can call on the Klingons to help out. if the Feds are invaded, the mutual defence clauses of the Khitomer accords would be invoked and Martok wouldn't shy away from helping the Feddies out. and we all know the Klingons love a good scrap.

plus the Feds could probably convince the Romulans and some of the other races of the threat posed by the Imperium and then get them on side and voila, mass brawl.

the Allies could glass the Imperium's beach head world and then sit outside the wormhole mouth, pounding anything that comes through before erecting another self-erplicating minefield at the mouth entrance and go home, job done.

 

[Silent_Bob]

No Star Wars in this debate. =)

Then no. The Federation is f***ed, just like in any objective contest between it and a military populated by soldiers and not by global warming researchers.

Oh good, then there will be debating after all.



I'd have to disagree with you there. If anything, Starfleet has far superior technology, even if their weapon designs aren't all that practical at times.

Hardly. Imperium warships have energy weapons capable of instantly vaporising escort ships the size of the largest Federation ships. They shields capable of withstanding colossal levels of firepower.

And they have one technological advantage nothing in the Federation comes close to matching:

Space Marines. One boarding pod makes it to a Federation ship, and its all over.

isn't at all worried about casualties and will annihilate worlds without hesitation.

...What? That's not true. Not at all. The most casual man to consider Exterminatus was the Inquisitor involved against the tyranid from the lower part of the galaxy. And he I believe, is on trial for his scorch and burn tactics that he employed against the Tyranids as a means of robbing them of their net gain of bio-mass from invading a planet.

The scorch and burn tactics applied to their own worlds. Kryptman was willing to sacrifice billions of innocent Imperial humans. Do you really think anyone would hesitate to wipe out degenerate xenos loving scum and their alien filth allies?

The Federation on the other hand is restricted by their ethics.

...

Kirk: The Klingons should all die.

Did they follow through? No.

Picard: The Borg should all die.

Did they follow through? No.

Sisko: The Borg should all die.

Did they follow through? Well Sisko probably would have given the chance, but then Sisko is a badass and would likely be granted a place as a High Lord of Terra because he's just that badass.

Janeway: 8472 should be assimilated by the Borg.

Did they follow through? No.

Section 31: The Founders should all die.

I'll grant you they tried to follow through, albeit not that affectively.

Sisko: Killing a thief, a Romulan ambassador, and starting a war between two sovereign nations (thus violating General Order One) is something I can live with. And then cover up.

See the Sisko Clause above.

Admiral Ross: I will willing assist Section 31 in defaming a Romulan politician to save the Federation.

Ooh they defamed a rival politician. You know what the Imperium does to rival politicians? Send in an Eversor assassin.

Federation Council & Admiral & Science Team: Let's forcibly relocate the defenseless Baku! For science!

Federation solution: Spend resources on a overcomplicated relocation attempt.
Imperium solution: Commence the orbital bombardment.

Scene from Arena:

*explosions all around*

Spock: Captain, these aliens appear to be hostile. Perhaps we should try and reason with them and bridge the misunderstanding between our two people and--

Kirk: Mr. Kelowitz, hand me that antimatter grenade launcher.

Kirk I'll overlook, but Picard and Janeway both made incredibly genocidal actions against two species that they both saw as a threat to themselves. Janeway's even has the cream of it helping her crew get through Borg space unmolested. Section 31 actually infected the Founders with a deadly disease and even Sisko said he wouldn't give them the cure for obvious reasons.

They may be moral, but that isn't the same as lacking teeth.

And all but Sisko didn't follow through. They may have teeth but when push comes to shove, they take the high road.

When push comes to shove for the Imperium they do follow through. And if anyone does back down, the Commissars shoot them in the head and make sure the next guy follows his orders.

 

[Caliburn24]

How do you figure?A war of attrition would require more and more ships elseware. And ships don't come quickly or cheap in the Imperium. A war of attrition is the very last thing the Imperium would want.

The IoM has over a million worlds. The Federation has a couple hundred. Any war of attrition would not favor the Federation.

I highly doubt that the even the UFP's enemies are going to sell them down the river, because they all know who'd be next on the list of the xenophobic, tyrannical, imperial expansionists whose idea of a good alien is one whose been deep roasted.

It does not have to be a Trek version of Lend Lease. There are lots of minor powers and traders in the Trek universe who would be happy to sell the IoM some basic transporter technology, anti-matter and whatever else. The Ferengi would likely drool at the chance to expand their markets. And due to the disparity in numbers, the IoM does not need technological parity, they just need a rudimentary understanding of the technology and how to counter it.

The question of technology is minor however. The bigger question is would the The Warp and Psykers be available in the Trek-universe? Because no Trek polity is remotely prepared for that. If The Warp is around, and effects technology as it sometimes does in Warhammer then the advanced systems of Starfleet are going to become a liability.