Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility be?

[Kemaiku]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Only 4% of this planet "likes us", everything else is anywhere from simply harsh to all out lethal.

So that's 99.99999999(you get the idea)% lethality, looks like the universe doesn't consider us all that useful afterall.

And we're rapidly killing that 4%

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Intrinsically valuable to whom? To the person who has it for sure but to anyone else?

Valuable to the universe as a whole.

Oh, let's look on the sunny side - we have so many opportunities here to kill another potential Hitler in his mother's womb.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Only 4% of this planet "likes us",

Clearly we need to advertise our Facebook page more.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

So, all human life is precious and important. Unless it belongs to a legal abortion services provider sitting in church trying to worship the very God who gave him and everything else life. In which case to hell with him and it.

Gotcha.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

So, all human life is precious and important. Unless it belongs to a legal abortion services provider sitting in church trying to worship the very God who gave him and everything else life. In which case to hell with him and it.

Gotcha.

You are the one who brought up George Tiller in the first place.

Why you're whining about an opinion on his death is beyond me.

 

[Davros]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Yet another reason people should not have sex unless they are married.

But they will anyhow. They always have. Good thing easily available contraceptives can reduce the consequences of this oh so predictable behavior.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Yet another reason people should not have sex unless they are married.

But they will anyhow. They always have. Good thing easily available contraceptives can reduce the consequences of this oh so predictable behavior.

I'll grant that people have always had sex before marriage or at least a large percentage of them have.

It was different 30-50 years ago. I've heard my parents, grandparents and others of that generation talk about it.

Back then, basically a couple that had been virgins and were still in high school would start dating and then start having sex.

Often, the boy would give the girl a "promise ring". The public idea was that it was a "pre engagement ring".

But privately everyone knew that the "promise" was actually "I promise that if you get pregnant we'll get married".

Couples had sex, a good percentage of them resulted in pregnancy, the couple got married and then were expected to stay together for life.

So yes, people were having sex before marriage, but in a large percentage of the cases, it was to a future spouse.

It in no way resembles things today where a person has two sex partners in junior high, three more sex partners in high school, three or four in college, and then a couple of more after college before they decide to get married.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Of course, people staying together "for life" was due to the stigma of getting divorced, and a couple would often stay together despite extensive abuse by one or both parties. Hard to argue that that is in any way healthy or preferable.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Of course, people staying together "for life" was due to the stigma of getting divorced, and a couple would often stay together despite extensive abuse by one or both parties. Hard to argue that that is in any way healthy or preferable.

I've seen no evidence that "abuse" was more significant a problem in marriages then than now.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Researching my and other people's family trees I have found quite a few cases of children born out of 'wedlock' and strangely it seemed to have been more common in the families of the free settlers.

It would seem that in many cases the father did not marry the mother. This seems to have been more common in the 19th century than in the first half of the 20th century though my own grandmother had a baby (born 1911) before she married and my grandfather was certainly not the father.

 

[Davros]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Of course, people staying together "for life" was due to the stigma of getting divorced, and a couple would often stay together despite extensive abuse by one or both parties. Hard to argue that that is in any way healthy or preferable.

I've seen no evidence that "abuse" was more significant a problem in marriages then than now.

The term "rule of thumb" referred to the law allowing husbands to beat their wives with a stick no bigger around than their thumb.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Of course, people staying together "for life" was due to the stigma of getting divorced, and a couple would often stay together despite extensive abuse by one or both parties. Hard to argue that that is in any way healthy or preferable.

I've seen no evidence that "abuse" was more significant a problem in marriages then than now.

The term "rule of thumb" referred to the law allowing husbands to beat their wives with a stick no bigger around than their thumb.

I don't know what it was like where you grew up, but any "husband" trying to pull such a stunt where I grew up a few decades ago would prompty get his assed kicked by his wifes father, brothers (or lacking those) cousins.

But it seems to be fashionable to believe that the "good ole days" were times rife with chronic abuse of women and children though no evidence supports that.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

You are the one who brought up George Tiller in the first place.

Why you're whining about an opinion on his death is beyond me.

Because this is a thread about unexpected and unwanted pregnancies. The pro-life/anti-choice movement is a direct offshoot of that and a relevant topic if we're going to discuss possible termination of unexpected and unwanted pregnancies. George Tiller, whether you agree with what he was doing or not, was performing a legal family planning service to certain women. He was murdered in cold blood for it. It's all related whether you see it and care or not.

That's why I brought it up and why I'm "whining" about your opinion. Your opinion is that the man was a monster who absolutely deserved to die and you compared him to a Nazi at a death camp. That's why I'm "whining." Everything in the pregnancy and choice/life debate is connected.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

You are the one who brought up George Tiller in the first place.

Why you're whining about an opinion on his death is beyond me.

Because this is a thread about unexpected and unwanted pregnancies. The pro-life/anti-choice movement is a direct offshoot of that and a relevant topic if we're going to discuss possible termination of unexpected and unwanted pregnancies. George Tiller, whether you agree with what he was doing or not, was performing a legal family planning service to certain women. He was murdered in cold blood for it. It's all related whether you see it and care or not.

That's why I brought it up and why I'm "whining" about your opinion. Your opinion is that the man was a monster who absolutely deserved to die and you compared him to a Nazi at a death camp. That's why I'm "whining." Everything in the pregnancy and choice/life debate is connected.

Fine.

But surely even you will agree that just because something is "legal" by the laws in effect at that time does NOT necessarily make it the "moral" or "right" thing to do?

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

There are many people in society who believe that it is more moral to abort a first trimester fetus than it is to 1) force a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will 2) to bring a child into the world knowing he/she will have a life of pain and suffering.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

But surely even you will agree that just because something is "legal" by the laws in effect at that time does NOT necessarily make it the "moral" or "right" thing to do?

I'm not going to lie. There are many things about abortion I don't like and never have.

But my personal discomfort with aspects of the procedure does not in any way, shape or form give me the moral or legal authority to prevent a woman from choosing whether or not she wants to continue her pregnancy. Nor would I. Women are just as valuable as men and deserve to be accorded the same moral and legal rights over their own bodies as men. It is no more my business what a woman does with her body and her pregnancy than it is yours. Women are just as good as men and deserve the same freedom of decision making as men. If she wants to keep the child, that's fantastic. If she doesn't, that's her damn business and I have no more right to step in and condemn her for what she's doing with her own body than she has to step in and condemn me for what I'm doing with mine.

This is a personal rights issue more than anything else. I value life and always have. But I also value the right of a woman to protect her own health with whatever legal means are open to her. Her body. Her freedom. Her choice. Her decision.

Besides, if you claim to be religious and have a strong faith then look at it this way. View it from a perspective you can grasp and appreciate. The soul/spirit of that aborted child will go straight back to God and be in His presence. Something that, according to mainstream and especially fundamentalist Christianity, even the souls of many grown adults won't experience. There are different ways of looking at this. Even in religion.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

But surely even you will agree that just because something is "legal" by the laws in effect at that time does NOT necessarily make it the "moral" or "right" thing to do?

I'm not going to lie. There are many things about abortion I don't like and never have.

But my personal discomfort with aspects of the procedure does not in any way, shape or form give me the moral or legal authority to prevent a woman from choosing whether or not she wants to continue her pregnancy. Nor would I. Women are just as valuable as men and deserve to be accorded the same moral and legal rights over their own bodies as men. It is no more my business what a woman does with her body and her pregnancy than it is yours. Women are just as good as men and deserve the same freedom of decision making as men. If she wants to keep the child, that's fantastic. If she doesn't, that's her damn business and I have no more right to step in and condemn her for what she's doing with her own body than she has to step in and condemn me for what I'm doing with mine.

This is a personal rights issue more than anything else. I value life and always have. But I also value the right of a woman to protect her own health with whatever legal means are open to her. Her body. Her freedom. Her choice. Her decision.

Besides, if you claim to be religious and have a strong faith then look at it this way. View it from a perspective you can grasp and appreciate. The soul/spirit of that aborted child will go straight back to God and be in His presence. Something that, according to mainstream and especially fundamentalist Christianity, even the souls of many grown adults won't experience. There are different ways of looking at this. Even in religion.

I will never believe that it is remotely possible to justify, or rationalize abortion based on religious reasons. Especially given there is a reference in the Bible to "those who shed innocent blood" being something that God hates (don't have the reference, I'm certain it will come up).

So don't even bother trying to rationalize or mitigate abortion to me based on anything in religion or the Bible.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

But surely even you will agree that just because something is "legal" by the laws in effect at that time does NOT necessarily make it the "moral" or "right" thing to do?

Since everybody has different moral standards I'd say it's a good thing we're not basing our laws on what one person or a group of persons think is moral.
Like you said: Legal isn't the same as moral.

An example: I find Nerys Ghemor's statements regarding abortion (equating it with murder) to be deeply immoral, intolerant and misguided yet I don't doubt that it's her legal right to make those statements.

Different moral standards.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I will never believe that it is remotely possible to justify, or rationalize abortion based on religious reasons. Especially given there is a reference in the Bible to "those who shed innocent blood" being something that God hates (don't have the reference, I'm certain it will come up).

The same God who allowed Moses to slaughter innocent Midian boy babies?

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I will never believe that it is remotely possible to justify, or rationalize abortion based on religious reasons. Especially given there is a reference in the Bible to "those who shed innocent blood" being something that God hates (don't have the reference, I'm certain it will come up).

The same God who allowed Moses to slaughter innocent Midian boy babies?

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

God can do what he wants MS. Doesn't mean humans have the same authority.