Yeah, it sounds almost human!
Talosian illusion powers and the fate of Pike
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Yeah, it sounds almost human!
According to the dialogue, Pike was kept alive by a battery-driven heart. Let's hope that either Spock remembered to take a lifetime supply of batteries or there's a convenience store on Talos V.
What if Pike's recharger is 120V 60Hz and the Talosians' electricity is 240V 50Hz?
Couldn't agree more. It is the event that kills the "believability" of the entire episode.
No problem, Pike's chair has a hidden solar power panel that pops out or is revealed by a black rectangular plate (door/access panel) sliding open (by moving up or down) and recharges the batteries when necessary. Perhaps similar in design to the scanner scope that pops up out of the helm console on the bridge.
Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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I think about that every time I see the episode.
Various points: Pike wouldn't forget he was living an illusion-- he would just be more willing to do so this time.
Something I like about Menagerie as opposed to The Cage is the acceptance of Pike's disaster as something that can't just be fixed through a frenzied hour's research in McCoy's medical lab. They were willing to deal with harsh reality here, and the fact that flesh and blood humans can be rendered helpless. Strangely enough, I'm going to guess that this is the kind of physical damage that they'll probably be able to remedy in the 23rd century, if we keep progressing and don't backslide technologically.
That novel-- "Burning Dreams" ... sounds like the right interpretation. On the face of it, Spock seems to have dumped Pike into a very unstable, precarious situation, with unstable, untrustworthy people as "guardians".
...Well, any supply would by definition be a lifetime one here.
If the Talosians hadn't driven Spock into performing a capital crime, Starfleet would never have revoked the death penalty on dealings with Talos IV.
Remember that the Talosians can create impressive illusions, but they can't make Pike yield to their will. Even when they make the starship divulge her secrets and then go haywire, this is said to be because of the confusion they create in the minds of the crew, not because they would have truly co-opted the minds of the heroes.
It thus would in all likelihood be beyond the powers of the Talosians to get Starfleet to rewrite its General Orders to their liking through direct telepathic coercion. But by staging the kidnapping of Pike and his delivery to Talos, they secure an impressive propaganda victory that wins the hearts and minds of Starfleet. And for that, they need to stage an ineffective chase and then put a delaying act on Kirk; a fake superior does that very well indeed.
The Talosian mindfucking powers are great, but a hint to this not amounting to true mind control comes from the very fact that they waited for eleven years to implement this Plan B. They had acted indirectly before, by tempting their victim through an illusory character; this modus operandi would fit their needs the second time around as well.
Timo Saloniemi
WHAT are you babbling about? Starfleet didn't revoke the death penalty, they just didn't enforce it that one time. Also, I wasn't suggesting mind control, I was suggesting they create the illusion in the crew's minds that they'd be doing one thing but were actually doing something else (setting a course for Talos IV for example). That would be consistent with what Vina said:
The rest, about Talosians getting Starfleet to rewrite regulations, has nothing to do with the episode.
VINA
He's not bluffing, Captain. With illusion
they can make your crew work the wrong
controls or push any button it takes to
destroy your ship.
He's not bluffing, Captain. With illusion
they can make your crew work the wrong
controls or push any button it takes to
destroy your ship.
The rest, about Talosians getting Starfleet to rewrite regulations, has nothing to do with the episode.
Well, obviously they did, because by the time of "Turnabout Intruder" that offense is no longer among those warranting death penalty - only GO 4 is.
And I was pointing out that in order to achieve anything much, the Talosians would have to perform complex maneuvers exactly because there was no evidence they were capable of mind control. The illusory Mendez was just about the simplest possible way for them to proceed, not to mention analogous to what they had done before when manipulating Pike with an illusory Vina.
Nor does your illusory "giant loophole". And?
Timo Saloniemi
The Keeper said: "The Commodore was never aboard your vessel. His presence there, and in the shuttlecraft, was an illusion." I agree that this was a big hole in the story. There wasn't any real need to conceive of Mendez being an illusion about the Enterprise. I think the writers did it to dispel the seriousness of the court martial, that Kirk's career and Spock's life wasn't in jeopardy after all. But yes, how could the Talosians affect Kirk's mind all the way back at the starbase? If they had that range, they could easily divert any number of humanoid beings throughout the Alpha quadrant to Talos IV at any time. I just prefer to think of it as an aberration, a simple mistake, and instead imagine that Mendez really did accompany Kirk.
As for Pike's chair, the whole outer shell of the chair could have been a contoured solar panel skin, recharging from indoor lighting or the sun's rays. Also, they probably had wireless recharging at that point anyway.
As for the death penalty on violating regulations, Talos IV is a very special exception and wouldn't need to be quoted.
As for Pike's chair, the whole outer shell of the chair could have been a contoured solar panel skin, recharging from indoor lighting or the sun's rays. Also, they probably had wireless recharging at that point anyway.
As for the death penalty on violating regulations, Talos IV is a very special exception and wouldn't need to be quoted.
Sure it does. If they have the power to create illusions at such distances then there's no reason for any of the fictional trial nonsense. You're making up stuff that didn't happen (except via retconning from another episode two years later) as rationalization for what the episode portrayed because of ill-thought-out story logic.
There's no reason to get Pike to Talos, either - he can live a full life of fantasy in his wheelchair at SB11. That is, if altruist will to help Pike is the thing motivating the Talosians.
But as long as the Talosians are shown willing to get Pike to the planet, it then follows that they need Starfleet approval for that, or else there will be punitive expeditions in the near future. Hence the need for a "plot" or a "scheme" or whatnot, and lo, drama follows. And that drama certainly calls for things like pursuit, argument, and trial, both from the Paramount viewpoint and from the viewpoint of the Talosians. A simple clandestine shanghaiing of Pike to the planet would serve nobody (except perhaps Pike, but we don't get the impression that anybody really cares about what's good for him).
Timo Saloniemi
But there's still no reason for Mendez to be an illusion. I have no doubt he would've went along since the Enterprise was stolen from his facility. There's no doubt that once he found that Spock made his security look inept that he'd want his head.
That the Talosians show they can broadcast their powers over dozens or perhaps hundreds of light-years may force Starfleet to consider them a major threat to Federation security.
Mendez being an illusion serves no logical story purpose.
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I want to bring up an issue that is never addressed. Do the Talosians have to consciously place the illusion in your mind or once begun is the illusion self perpetuating?
I feel the latter is how it is portrayed. There are times in the episode when the illusion ends, why did it end? Was it because the Talosians stopped projecting the illusion or was Pike able to end the illusion himself?
I ask this because it brings up a problem. If Pike is going to live out his life on Talos IV does that mean some Talosian has to project the illusion into Pike's mind 24/7?
I feel the latter is how it is portrayed. There are times in the episode when the illusion ends, why did it end? Was it because the Talosians stopped projecting the illusion or was Pike able to end the illusion himself?
I ask this because it brings up a problem. If Pike is going to live out his life on Talos IV does that mean some Talosian has to project the illusion into Pike's mind 24/7?
Mendez served the purpose of being a Starfleet authority to justify themselves to, so that Spock (and later Kirk when he's won over) don't get into deep trouble later, for hijacking a starship and earning the death penalty. The only thing erasing Mendez accomplishes is to make sure of real court martials for both of them, without Talosian help this time, probably.
I'm not quite so sure about that. Going after a starship in a shuttle sounds too insane for the real Mendez to even contemplate doing. But if Kirk is provided with an illusory Mendez who doesn't stop to contemplate, then Kirk (who also should have enough sense not to do something that stupid) could be fooled into acting against his own better judgement...
A very good question. A group of Talosians is shown "presiding" over Pike's illusions for great lengths of time, but are they doing that only in order to observe what is autonomously going on inside Pike's head?
The abrupt endings all appear to take place at moments favorable to the aims and goals of the Talosians... Either Pike has just narrowly escaped death and could well be expected to enjoy a few moments of relaxing sex, or then the current scenario has failed to achieve its immediate goals and could just as well be dropped in favor of a better one. So we could argue the Talosians are doing the ending.
Supposedly, a major problem the Talosians were facing was the excessive use of their powers of illusion - on themselves. Projecting fantasies 24/7 might well be like breathing to them.
A concern the Talosians might indeed have if they had carefully preplanned this all with Spock. They wouldn't even think of such things if they simply used Spock like a puppet in order to finally get their hands on Pike for good, or for some other natively Talosian goal.
Which raises the subsequent question of how Spock had come to reach an understanding with the Talosians. Who made the initiative? It would seem natural to assume it was Spock, as he'd plausibly care for Pike for Pike's sake, and he'd plausibly monitor Starfleet communications and be aware of the situation with Pike; the Talosians would not be likely to do either, not on their own, not based on what we saw in "The Cage".
Did Spock visit Talos a second time, then? On his own? By surrendering to the Talosians, he would risk little, as the aliens would have no matching breeding pair for a Vulcan male... But he could plausibly come carrying gifts, promising to deliver Pike to the Talosians; whether the aliens accepted this as a basis for bona fide negotiations, or took over Spock's mind and callously used him for getting Pike, Spock would get what he wanted.
Did Spock then perhaps smuggle a Talosian to SB11, to help manipulate Starfleet (as Phil Farrand half-jokingly suggests in his Nitpicker's Guide)? That would explain the Mendez illusion without suggesting the sort of interstellar telepathic powers that would ill match what we saw in "The Cage".
Timo Saloniemi
This sequence of events seems unlikely...
Amok Time said:
Since Pike's injury was relatively recent, Spock would've had to have gotten away from the Enterprise in order to go to Talos IV.
Excellent point. Does this mean that Talosians necessarily have interstellar powers after all? They would need those in order to either summon Spock aboard the Enterprise and cover his departure from the ship in a cloud of illusions, or to influence things at SB11 in a way that demonstrates their awareness of what Spock was trying to accomplish.
That is, unless they had managed to hijack a starship or other method of transportation and were able to use that to do one or the other: physically contact Spock aboard the Enterprise, or spy on him and SB11 at close telepathic range to figure out what was going on. But why would they do anything like that? Surely they'd have better uses for a hijacked ship.
If Spock acted completely on his own initiative, then the Mendez illusion means the Talosians were aware of everything that was happening lightyears away from their planet, and capable of influencing what was happening. As they apparently didn't influence anything else, their benevolence (or disinterest in conquest or other malice) is then well established - an odd turn of events when at the end of "The Cage" they were despondent that Pike's escape would doom their species. Had they perhaps found an alternate method of survival in the meantime? Another slave species that would in secure their future? A helpful individual or team to put the planet back on track without the need for generations of slavery? Another solution altogether?
Timo Saloniemi
That is, unless they had managed to hijack a starship or other method of transportation and were able to use that to do one or the other: physically contact Spock aboard the Enterprise, or spy on him and SB11 at close telepathic range to figure out what was going on. But why would they do anything like that? Surely they'd have better uses for a hijacked ship.
If Spock acted completely on his own initiative, then the Mendez illusion means the Talosians were aware of everything that was happening lightyears away from their planet, and capable of influencing what was happening. As they apparently didn't influence anything else, their benevolence (or disinterest in conquest or other malice) is then well established - an odd turn of events when at the end of "The Cage" they were despondent that Pike's escape would doom their species. Had they perhaps found an alternate method of survival in the meantime? Another slave species that would in secure their future? A helpful individual or team to put the planet back on track without the need for generations of slavery? Another solution altogether?
Timo Saloniemi
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