The Federation's ham fisted first contact policy

[Gotham Central]

One of the more troubling aspects of TOS were the occasions where the Enterprise makes contact with a specific planet even after being warned against doing so.

In "A Taste of Armageddon," the inhabitants tell the Enterprise not to approach their system. The idiot Federation commissioner orders Kirk to ignore the warning and make contact anyway.

In "Spectre of the Gun," the Melkon specifically tell the Enterprise to stay away. Kirk says that his orders state that he must make contact with them...yet the Enterprise plows ahead anyway.

In both of these instances the Enterprise was clearly in the wrong. It makes the Federation seem like pushy door to door salesmen that choose to ignore the Keep Out signs on the fence and the barking dog.

 

[Gojira]

One of the things I liked about TNG was how they would only contact societies with warp drive. In TOS they would contact anyone they came across.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Yeah, looking at the PD as the cornerstone of Federation Law and Starfleet policy, it just got ignored far too often.

Legally speaking, when Robert Fox ordered Kirk to ignore the code whatever and proceed to Eminiar, Kirk should have arrested and confined him for a) issuing an illegal order and; b) conspiring to willfully violate the Prime Directive. And Starfleet should have backed him 100%.

Of course, that makes for an awfully boring show.

 

[Knight Templar]

I figured lots of Federation policies were like American foreign policy.

Constantly changing but always half assed.

 

[MacLeod]

Yeah, looking at the PD as the cornerstone of Federation Law and Starfleet policy, it just got ignored far too often.

Legally speaking, when Robert Fox ordered Kirk to ignore the code whatever and proceed to Eminiar, Kirk should have arrested and confined him for a) issuing an illegal order and; b) conspiring to willfully violate the Prime Directive. And Starfleet should have backed him 100%.

Of course, that makes for an awfully boring show.

The PD could have been changed slighlty from the TOS to the TNG era.

As for the instances mentioned above.

Perhaps instances like those caused new provisions to be added to to the PD stating that if asked to leave

 

[Warped9]

In "A Taste of Armageddon," the inhabitants tell the Enterprise not to approach their system. The idiot Federation commissioner orders Kirk to ignore the warning and make contact anyway.

Neither Kirk nor the Enterprise were "in the wrong." Kirk was perfectly willing to turn away, but it's evident that Fox had the authority to override him and ordered Kirk to approach the planet even against Kirk's better judgement. We can also assume that Starfleet Command "informed" Kirk that Fox had the authority to exercise Federation authority over his objections. But when things went south overriding authority reverted to Kirk over the Enterprise and everyone aboard. Translation: Kirk would do whatever it took to get their asses out of there in one piece.

In "Spectre of the Gun," the Melkon specifically tell the Enterprise to stay away. Kirk says that his orders state that he must make contact with them...yet the Enterprise plows ahead anyway.

Firstly it's strongly inferred at the end of the episode that the Enterprise never actually bypassed the Melkotian buoy. Everything after the Melkot warning was an illusion played out collectively in the minds of the Enterprise crew. Although Kirk intended to follow his orders he never actually did so except in the illusion the Melkotians played out in his mind.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Kirk had no business or excuse for destroying the computers on Eminiar. Once he'd taken over the command center and reestablished contact with the Enterprise he and the others could have safely beamed back to the Enterprise and left.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Kirk had every right and reason to intervene on Eminiar. What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity. Untold millions (probably billions, maybe trillions, as the war had been going on for centuries) of people were summarily executed based on computer-simulated "attacks" on the part of governments who had utterly abrogated their obligation to the lives of their citizens.

Because they had their nice, tidy death factories to do the dirty work of killing in a manner that shielded them from the horror of their actions, they had lost any incentive to end the war and save lives.

The joint actions of the two Councils were depraved, immoral, and had to stop. Kirk did the only thing he could at that time: make them face the horror head on.

 

[T'Girl]

The PD could have been changed slighlty from the TOS to the TNG era.

Or changed after the start of the TNG era. In Justice Picard contacted the people of Rubicon, a (apparently) non-warp culture.

One of the more troubling aspects of TOS were the occasions where the Enterprise makes contact with a specific planet even after being warned against doing so.

Despite a unearned reputation, Kirk rarely disobeys orders (perhaps only once in all of TOS). If the prime directive says one thing, and Starfleet Command says another, Kirk will follow the orders that came through his chain of command, even if he personally disagrees with them.

Kirk should have arrested and confined him for a) issuing an illegal order

The episode makes clear that it was a lawful order. The code 7-10 was at best a request, unlike Ambassador Fox, Eminiar Seven lack the ability to actual tell Kirk what to do.

the PD as the cornerstone of Federation Law and Starfleet policy

Even though it's referred to as "The Prime Directive," and "General Order One," there no evidense that the PD during TOS is the cornerstone of anything in the Federation or Starfleet. By the time of Voyager, with dozens upon dozens of suborders, the PD is a confusing mess that Janeway doesn't even pretend to observe.

 

[UnknownSample]

Kirk had every right and reason to intervene on Eminiar. What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity. Untold millions (probably billions, maybe trillions, as the war had been going on for centuries) of people were summarily executed based on computer-simulated "attacks" on the part of governments who had utterly abrogated their obligation to the lives of their citizens.

Because they had their nice, tidy death factories to do the dirty work of killing in a manner that shielded them from the horror of their actions, they had lost any incentive to end the war and save lives.

The joint actions of the two Councils were depraved, immoral, and had to stop. Kirk did the only thing he could at that time: make them face the horror head on.

Go Ian! Let's drink a toast to a sense of right and wrong! The scary, questionable thing was General Order 24, but what a fascinatingly jarring and shocking thing to throw into an SF story... One of the most interesting things about it is that Kirk's near-implementation of it (or Scotty's) is very right and very wrong, at the same time.


Hmm... I thought Janeway was big on the PD, and that only that 29th century time ship guy thought differently...she did realize that when dealing with situations as they develop, exceptions must be made.

 

[UnknownSample]

Kirk had every right and reason to intervene on Eminiar. What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity. Untold millions (probably billions, maybe trillions, as the war had been going on for centuries) of people were summarily executed based on computer-simulated "attacks" on the part of governments who had utterly abrogated their obligation to the lives of their citizens.

Because they had their nice, tidy death factories to do the dirty work of killing in a manner that shielded them from the horror of their actions, they had lost any incentive to end the war and save lives.

The joint actions of the two Councils were depraved, immoral, and had to stop. Kirk did the only thing he could at that time: make them face the horror head on.

Go Ian! Let's drink a toast to a sense of right and wrong! The scary, questionable thing was General Order 24, but what a fascinatingly jarring and shocking thing to throw into an SF story... One of the most interesting things about it is that Kirk's near-implementation of it (or Scotty's) is very right and very wrong, at the same time.


T'G... Hmm... I thought Janeway was big on the PD, and that only that 29th century time ship guy thought differently...she did realize that when dealing with situations as they develop, exceptions must be made.

 

[Timo]

Legally speaking, when Robert Fox ordered Kirk to ignore the code whatever and proceed to Eminiar, Kirk should have arrested and confined him for a) issuing an illegal order and; b) conspiring to willfully violate the Prime Directive. And Starfleet should have backed him 100%.

That would be a military coup.

There is no evidence that the UFP government should do what Kirk tells, or that the UFP government should obey the PD. But there is every indication (plus common sense) that Kirk should do exactly as the civilians tell him, and that the civilians decide who can be contacted and who cannot. The PD is a piece of legislation, and legislators are its masters. Kirk is but a servant; it's his hands, and his hands only, that are tied by the PD.

Really, it would appear that the PD only exists to keep the Kirks of the world from acting out of line. It's not a regulation protecting those to be contacted or not contacted. It's a regulation protecting the UFP from power-mad starship captains who would want to take the right of policy-making away from the government and start dictating the way of life not only for random alien planets encountered, but for the UFP as well.

After all, we never hear that civilians would be affected by the PD, and we hear at least once that civilians are specifically not affected ("Angel One"). And nobody questions the frequent government orders to initiate contact or otherwise do things that starship captains can't do on their own. Even in ST:INS, Picard only objects to a policy that is based on a misconception of the facts. Which is sorta funny, because at that point his own facts are pretty confused as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedi Marso]

Legally speaking, when Robert Fox ordered Kirk to ignore the code whatever and proceed to Eminiar, Kirk should have arrested and confined him for a) issuing an illegal order and; b) conspiring to willfully violate the Prime Directive. And Starfleet should have backed him 100%.

That would be a military coup.

By your logic, then, it's a military coup if Obama orders the general in Afghanistan to gas a village full of civilians and the General in charge disobeys that patently illegal order. Sorry, does not compute.

Legislation, once passed, is the law. At that point everyone is subject to it, and legislators (or ambassadors- not the same thing, and a distinction you apparently don't recognize) do not get to ignore, abrogate, or disobey the law at their whim.

Of course, we're picking nits over a TV show within which the canon and the consistency of its stories and scripts was never really solid to begin with. But damn, some people around here sure do have some strange ideas. Watching people try to defend the heroes of the show when they are patently contradicting their own rules is entertaining.

But only a little.

 

[Knight Templar]

Kirk had every right and reason to intervene on Eminiar. What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity..

The people of Eminiar and Vendikar were not humans were they?

 

[BillJ]

Legislation, once passed, is the law. At that point everyone is subject to it, and legislators (or ambassadors- not the same thing, and a distinction you apparently don't recognize) do not get to ignore, abrogate, or disobey the law at their whim.

But there is no indication that the order Fox gives is illegal in any way. Without that indication, you have to work under the assumption that Fox is working within the law and power of his position.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Kirk had every right and reason to intervene on Eminiar. What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity. Untold millions (probably billions, maybe trillions, as the war had been going on for centuries) of people were summarily executed based on computer-simulated "attacks" on the part of governments who had utterly abrogated their obligation to the lives of their citizens.

Because they had their nice, tidy death factories to do the dirty work of killing in a manner that shielded them from the horror of their actions, they had lost any incentive to end the war and save lives.

The joint actions of the two Councils were depraved, immoral, and had to stop. Kirk did the only thing he could at that time: make them face the horror head on.

Not to mention the fact that they also kill anyone who isn't a citizen of either world if they happen to be listed as a casualty in their war even when they don't have the slightest idea whats going on, which probably contributed to the large death total Ambassador Fox mentioned in the episode. besides Kirk's mission was kind of about ending the war any way.

Kirk had every right and reason to intervene on Eminiar. What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity..

The people of Eminiar and Vendikar were not humans were they?

close enough.

 

[Knight Templar]

Kirk's mission was kind of about ending the war any way.
.

Kirk wasn't even aware the war was still going on. He was told that Eminar VII was at war with Vendikar 50 years ago and reacted with surprise that it was still ongoing.

 

[horatio83]

What the governments of Eminiar and Vendikar were doing was nothing less than a gross crime against humanity.

There are no humans living on these planets so where is the crime against humanity?

Not that the episode was really about the Prime Directive, it was about not decaffeinating war lest we do it too much like the folks on these planets.

 

[Timo]

By your logic, then, it's a military coup if Obama orders the general in Afghanistan to gas a village full of civilians and the General in charge disobeys that patently illegal order. Sorry, does not compute.

I can't see anything patently illegal about that order. US legislation doesn't forbid the mass killing of civilians in military operations. Indeed, every president from the older Bush on has ordered such killings, with the civilians being targeted representing dangerous terrorist elements; Clinton just asked for international permission for his missile strikes, and readily got it, whereas the others have not bothered with overt legal correctness. The use of gas warheads might go against some specific clauses in some specific treaties, but that'd depend on the type of gas and other things.

The gunboat diplomacy ordered by the UFP government in "A Taste of Armageddon" or "Spectre of the Gun" is downright saintly in comparison. It's difficult to imagine why any nation or federation would write a law against such procedures.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

I think you'll find chemical warfare falls under the Geneva Protocol or more fully Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol

Then there is the Bioogical weapons convention, chemical weapons convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_Weapons_Convention


So plenty of international treaties regarding the use of chemical/bio weapons. And a commander would be well within their rights to refuse an order to use them. As their use would no doubt be conisdered a war crime.