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Why do folks dislike the Skant?

We're just not that enlightened yet, or perhaps we've stopped being so after biblical times...

Then again, you can't really make people be enlightened. You can hope for a shift in gender views, but in the end, if somebody thinks a uniform looks ugly, they will continue to think it, never mind 'gender equality'. Double standard? Maybe. But it's not going away anytime soon. Absolute equality will take a LONG time to reach us. And as has been pointed out, people have the right to their own preferences.

I didn't care for the skant on anyone at all, really - male or female. It just didn't look professional. It looked like pajamas. Even the non-skant Starfleet uniform from the first and second seasons - the one without the collar, which I always hated - looked better than the skant. It actually looked like a uniform.

Sure, the uniforms worn by a "real" space service 400 years in the future may well be incomprehensible to us, but then again, no Trek has ever been about how society really will function in the future. It's about *our* society transposed into that timeframe. Characters in Trek have always acted basically the same as we do; so it's not unusual to want them to dress that way as well.
 
Double standard? Maybe. But it's not going away anytime soon. Absolute equality will take a LONG time to reach us. And as has been pointed out, people have the right to their own preferences.
Thankfully nobody thought alongside these lines in the sixties or Uhura might have never kissed Kirk because of fear of the "preferences" of some folks in the South.
 
Remember, though, that in the popular culture of the late 1960s, the miniskirt was seen as symbolic of social and sexual liberation for women, like the short flapper dresses of the 1920s. Miniskirted duty uniforms for female starship personnel, however, were just impractical and silly. (And I'm saying this as a leg man!)

Right. They were impractical, but not sexist, not for the time, anyway. People who complain about the miniskirts tend to forget how often the writers contrived to get Kirk shirtless -- and much the same is true for other male action leads of the day (Jim West of The Wild Wild West had far more trouble keeping his shirt on than Kirk did). The heck with practicality, they wanted the shows to have sex appeal for both male and female viewers. So it wasn't about oppressing women; it was about making the cast members of both sexes attractive to the audience.

And it's worth keeping in mind that the female viewers of the day probably enjoyed seeing actresses in fashionable, attractive garb rather than drab uniforms, just as male viewers did. After all, it was Grace Lee Whitney who insisted on wearing a miniskirt instead of pants, because she found it more attractive and fashionable.
 
We're just not that enlightened yet, or perhaps we've stopped being so after biblical times...

Then again, you can't really make people be enlightened.
I disagree.

There are things that become generally acceptable or unacceptable within a society over time, generally due to a change in public perception about them.

Fashion, however, is always changing, IMO. What may be considered unfashionable now, could be considered fashionable in the future. Sometimes, stuff from the past becomes fashionable again.

I look forward to the return of beehive hairdos 250 years from now.
 
Double standard? Maybe. But it's not going away anytime soon. Absolute equality will take a LONG time to reach us. And as has been pointed out, people have the right to their own preferences.
Thankfully nobody thought alongside these lines in the sixties or Uhura might have never kissed Kirk because of fear of the "preferences" of some folks in the South.

:rolleyes: Way to selectively quote there, sparky.
 
. . . The miniskirts were basically there to sexualize the female characters in TOS and early TNG. Extending that to male characters doesn't make for egalitarianism, it just extends the objectification.

If they wanted to do something with draped fashions as part of 24th Century Federation culture, that would be valid, but they'd need to give it context. The only context we the audience saw was the pre-existing objectification of women in the miniskirt uniforms. (Which is gross in its own right -- imagine the outcry if the United States Navy were to start requiring its female sailors and officers to wear short miniskirts as part of their uniforms. People would rightly be outraged.)
Remember, though, that in the popular culture of the late 1960s, the miniskirt was seen as symbolic of social and sexual liberation for women, like the short flapper dresses of the 1920s.

Yes and no. On the one hand, yes, it was an act of sexual liberation to move away from the complete suppression of female sexuality. But almost as soon as things like that began to happen, they were being appropriated by patriarchal interests; women were allowed to be sexual, but only in the context of objectification and subservience to men. Second-wave feminism was really only just getting underway when TOS began, after all, and the U.S. still essentially operated under a system of unofficial gender apartheid.

This is reflected even in TOS, which parroted the sexist assumptions about women's roles of the 1960s mainstream America. Pike in "The Cage" notes that he feels uncomfortable with women on the bridge except for Number One, indicating that Number One is an outlier and it's extremely uncommon for women to serve on starships -- reflecting a production assumption that the then yet-unnamed space service on Star Trek would be male-dominated and sexually discriminatory, like the U.S. Armed Forces. Women seen throughout TOS mostly hold support positions -- communications operator (telephone girl), nurse, and star-struck love interest. It's even explicitly stated that women cannot become starship commanders in the TOS series finale. Don Draper would have been completely at home aboard Kirk's Enterprise.

And the miniskirts played into that. Yes, there was a notion of sexual liberation at work, but it was appropriated for male pleasure; TOS is full of the male gaze. Even that limited form of liberation from women only occurs in the context of serving a male interest.

And, no, the fact that William Shatner's shirt came off a lot does not equal things out. Being seen as muscley and macho is itself a male power fantasy; Kirk's shirt getting ripped off plays into heterosexual male power fantasies about what a real man is like.

All that's speaking from a real-world standpoint, of course. Speaking in-universe, even if we retcon things to try to establish more gender equality in the 2260s Federation Starfleet, it's still a ridiculous thing to have miniskirted uniforms. It opens the door up to all sorts of problems with sexual harassment -- especially if the miniskirt is mandated. The best we can do to retcon the skirts to make them less objectionable is to assume that they're optional. This seems to be the assumption used when the miniskirts were revived for ST09, since we see female Starfleet officers with full sleeves and pants rather than just the skirts.
 
Double standard? Maybe. But it's not going away anytime soon. Absolute equality will take a LONG time to reach us. And as has been pointed out, people have the right to their own preferences.
Thankfully nobody thought alongside these lines in the sixties or Uhura might have never kissed Kirk because of fear of the "preferences" of some folks in the South.

:rolleyes: Way to selectively quote there, sparky.
You clearly said that you do not want the boundary to be pushed so do not complain when I point out what this attitude implies.


The best we can do to retcon the skirts to make them less objectionable is to assume that they're optional. This seems to be the assumption used when the miniskirts were revived for ST09, since we see female Starfleet officers with full sleeves and pants rather than just the skirts.
I'd say it's second-best. First best would be to do way with them or get back to something like the TNG skant.
Great post by the way. :bolian:
 
The best we can do to retcon the skirts to make them less objectionable is to assume that they're optional. This seems to be the assumption used when the miniskirts were revived for ST09, since we see female Starfleet officers with full sleeves and pants rather than just the skirts.

I'd say it's second-best. First best would be to do way with them or get back to something like the TNG skant.

Well, like I said before, I don't think extending dress designed for sexual objectification to men actually makes things better.

I actually don't have a problem with the idea of draped uniforms per se. But in the context of early TNG, it was clearly an attempt to try to be as equally objectifying of men as of women, and I don't think that's the way to go about this.

And meanwhile, it's impossible to get rid of the miniskirts entirely, at least as far as TOS is concerned. CBS is not going to spend money creating an extra-special edition in which all the miniskirts are replaced with CGI uniform trousers, after all. Though I agree that Abrams should have gotten rid of them for ST09.

Great post by the way. :bolian:

Thanks!
 
I liked the Skant, because it was one more thing on the show that said we weren't in the 20th century. The men are showing no more leg than men in shorts did in previous decades. I was seriously disappointed when the costuming went all Victorian with high collars and padded shoulders after the 2nd season.

...After all, it was Grace Lee Whitney who insisted on wearing a miniskirt instead of pants, because she found it more attractive and fashionable.
Or so she said in some interviews, but since we have neither Theiss nor Roddenberry to verify this, and I've seen no memos about it, it's merely hearsay, and I take it was a big grain of salt, as lovely as Grace Lee is (and she is...I had lunch with her in April).
 
Or so she said in some interviews, but since we have neither Theiss nor Roddenberry to verify this, and I've seen no memos about it, it's merely hearsay, and I take it was a big grain of salt, as lovely as Grace Lee is (and she is...I had lunch with her in April).

It makes no sense to use the term "hearsay" for something a person says about her own thoughts and actions. Hearsay is unsupported testimony about something that a witness has no direct experience of but was merely told about by another person (i.e. "I heard him say that such-and-such happened"). Since there's no firsthand knowledge, it isn't probative. But if Whitney was talking about things that she herself said and thought, her recollections may be as imperfect as any human being's, but they're the exact opposite of hearsay, since she has more direct experience of the subject than anyone else could.
 
Or so she said in some interviews, but since we have neither Theiss nor Roddenberry to verify this, and I've seen no memos about it, it's merely hearsay, and I take it was a big grain of salt, as lovely as Grace Lee is (and she is...I had lunch with her in April).

It makes no sense to use the term "hearsay" for something a person says about her own thoughts and actions. Hearsay is unsupported testimony about something that a witness has no direct experience of but was merely told about by another person (i.e. "I heard him say that such-and-such happened"). Since there's no firsthand knowledge, it isn't probative. But if Whitney was talking about things that she herself said and thought, her recollections may be as imperfect as any human being's, but they're the exact opposite of hearsay, since she has more direct experience of the subject than anyone else could.
Point taken, but you can get off your soapbox about a single mischosen word. You have a really bad habit of talking down to people over things like this but then dodging and weaving whenever someone catches you doing the same thing. Pot, meet kettle.
 
I'm not "talking down." It's just my nature to be precise. It's how I think. It's how I talk to myself as much as to anyone else, being analytical and systematic about defining things. I intended no slight.

And the point wasn't about the word, it was about the underlying idea. It's strange to say that Whitney is not a reliable source for the subject of her own actions and choices. No human is ever a completely reliable source about something decades in their own past, but she's certainly more qualified than anyone else to remember what her own motives and wishes were.
 
My own theory? Roddenberry liked to sexualize everything. That can be seen in virtually anything he ever wrote. In the 1960's, he could put women on the bridge in mini-skirts because that was considered sexually liberating. By the 1980's, the culture had shifted, and putting women on the bridge in mini-skirts would have been considered sexual objectification. Rather than put everyone in pants, he tried to get around it, by putting the men in skirts too. That way, he could keep his attractive women in skimpy outfits.

I have absolutely no evidence for this. It's just my personal theory.
 
^Except the only time we saw female cast members in the skants in TNG was in "Encounter at Farpoint," and Tasha only wore one in the final scene. I think the unisex skants were just an attempt to retroactively rationalize the miniskirt uniforms -- "See, it's not just about showing off women's legs, it's a variant uniform that represents a futuristic fashion style."
 
I got no problem with the men wearing the Skants, as long as they've got the legs for it. No point in showing off the legs, if they loook like a chicken's
 
Personally, it's the aesthetic of it. It just looks bad. It's ugly. I didn't like when Troi wore it in "Farpoint" and I didn't like it whenever it was seen in the background.

As for the whole gender thing? The only aspect of that I give credit to is that, frankly, men's legs don't look nearly as good. :P
 
Miniskirted duty uniforms for female starship personnel, however, were just impractical and silly. (And I'm saying this as a leg man!)

I completely agree with the impracticality of it. Not that we ever saw a sufficiently practical uniform except for ENT, but to me, it looks badly suited to shipboard life. I always assumed that the uniform material must've had flame retardants or something in it, which I think Air Force flight suits do IRL, and to not have full coverage with such material in an environment where the damn consoles blow up in your face every time the ship gets shot seems to compound stupid with stupid.

And the heels we saw some women wear on the show--absolutely stupid because that throws your balance and cuts running speed, which you may need to reach the scene of an emergency quickly, flee (or pursue) an attacker, etc.

Personally, I think that no one should've been wearing such a uniform shipboard. MAYBE as a dress uniform or on shore leave. But certainly not while serving on duty aboard a starship or starbase.



That said, if you MUST have a skirt for men, here's where I see the problem from a fashion perspective.

Let's see what these men's "skirts" look like, that work reasonably well.

Roman:

https://ssl4.lon.gb.securedata.net/toygrotto.net/merchantmanager/images/uploads/83569[1].jpg

Scottish kilt:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=kilt...102&start=0&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0,i:180

Sarong:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ce1uveHhR8o/TDl3NmaPedI/AAAAAAAABWc/HqoPyCHB488/s1600/sarong8.jpg

Utilikilt:

http://www.stoelrivesworldofemployment.com/uploads/image/UtiliKilt.jpg

What do all of these have in common?

Knee-length or longer. The fact that those skants were way higher is what made them look unattractive.
 
Double standard? Maybe. But it's not going away anytime soon. Absolute equality will take a LONG time to reach us. And as has been pointed out, people have the right to their own preferences.
Thankfully nobody thought alongside these lines in the sixties or Uhura might have never kissed Kirk because of fear of the "preferences" of some folks in the South.

Slight OT, but it bugs me when people hold up the Kirk/Uhura kiss as some big revolutionary thing - forgetting that it wasn't the first interracial kiss on television, AND both were being forced to/not happy about it.
 
Miniskirted duty uniforms for female starship personnel, however, were just impractical and silly. (And I'm saying this as a leg man!)

I completely agree with the impracticality of it. Not that we ever saw a sufficiently practical uniform except for ENT, but to me, it looks badly suited to shipboard life.
The simple unisex pants-and-velour-shirt uniforms in the two TOS pilots, "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before," looked comfortable and practical -- except that some of those shirts were so baggy, they could have posed a risk of getting fabric caught in moving machinery!
 
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