I think I may realize who might had been in command of the USS Republic when James Kirk was serving on board that ship. If you note? It took place in 2250, he was either 16 or 17 years old and had the rank of Ensign. Plus he was in Starfleet Academy. Which mean? He was a officer in training and he had a family member serving on the same ship too. And I think it was his dad George Kirk. Which also mean that James Kirk grow up on board a starship and was thought by his parents everything they know about how the run and operate a starship.
USS. Republic.
- Thread starter yenny
- Start date
The Encyclopedia guess isn't based on anything much, though. That book assumes that Kirk held commissioned rank before graduation, because another episode claimed that Kirk had served under Captain Garrovick "from the day [he] left the Academy", and Garrovick was never explicitly established as commanding this USS Republic, but rather the Farragut. But such convoluted logic takes a few unnecessary steps, especially since we know Kirk later was an instructor at the Academy at Lieutenant rank ("Where No Man").
The likeliest scenario is that Kirk graduated (probably in the 2253-55 time bracket), and received Ensign rank at graduation, but did not leave the Academy. Instead, he became an instructor, and at one point supervised his former instructor Finney ("Court Martial"), at another point taught Gary Mitchell ("Where No Man"). Later, at Lieutenant rank, he finally left the Academy and sailed out on the Farragut under Garrovick.
We can't tell when the supervising of Finney happened. All we hear is that it was "some years" after Kirk's early Academy days. That already makes 2250 the wrong answer, because Kirk would have enrolled no earlier than 2250!
Why do you think he had a family member serving aboard the ship? He never mentions one, despite listing some friends, mentors and referees.
Timo Saloniemi
The likeliest scenario is that Kirk graduated (probably in the 2253-55 time bracket), and received Ensign rank at graduation, but did not leave the Academy. Instead, he became an instructor, and at one point supervised his former instructor Finney ("Court Martial"), at another point taught Gary Mitchell ("Where No Man"). Later, at Lieutenant rank, he finally left the Academy and sailed out on the Farragut under Garrovick.
We can't tell when the supervising of Finney happened. All we hear is that it was "some years" after Kirk's early Academy days. That already makes 2250 the wrong answer, because Kirk would have enrolled no earlier than 2250!
Why do you think he had a family member serving aboard the ship? He never mentions one, despite listing some friends, mentors and referees.
Timo Saloniemi
^ Thanks, Timo, for pointing out an obvious hole in TOS continuity that I never noticed before. I never realized that, while "Obsession" places Kirk under the command of Capt. Garrovick "since the day I left the Academy", and Kirk is pegged as a lieutenant aboard the Farragut when Garrovick when the dikoronium cloud attacked and killed Garrovick and company, that it is problematic that back in "Court Martial" it was established that Kirk was an ensign aboard the Republic.
Clever idea on how Kirk could've stayed on at the Academy after graduating. Plausible and fits well to sew up the loose ends.
Clever idea on how Kirk could've stayed on at the Academy after graduating. Plausible and fits well to sew up the loose ends.
I don't buy that George Kirk ever became a captain in the Prime universe. I always see Diane Carey's version, who was security chief on Starbase 2, first officer of the as-yet-unnamed Enterprise on her very first mission with Captain April, and then became some sort of diplomatic security advisor.
(and disappeared on a mission while Jim Kirk was a cadet, but that bit's kinda been usurped by Spock Prime's comments in the last movie. As has much else in the book, especially by ENT, but.... foggy window.... etc....)
(and disappeared on a mission while Jim Kirk was a cadet, but that bit's kinda been usurped by Spock Prime's comments in the last movie. As has much else in the book, especially by ENT, but.... foggy window.... etc....)
There nothing saying that George Kirk never had his own command.
The incident on the Republic with Finney probably took place during James Kirk fifth year in the Academy. That will take out about a family member of James Kirk serving on on board the Republic when he was serving on her.
About Jim Kirk teaching at the academy. It would had taking place after his posing on the Farragut. If we go by the on screen information of Gary Mitchell esp test? Which he took before his posing on the Enterprise. He would had been in the academy from 2257 to 2261. If he had taking the fifth year. It would had been 2257-2262. The incident that taking place on Dimorus, would had taking place between 2262-2264.
The incident on the Republic with Finney probably took place during James Kirk fifth year in the Academy. That will take out about a family member of James Kirk serving on on board the Republic when he was serving on her.
About Jim Kirk teaching at the academy. It would had taking place after his posing on the Farragut. If we go by the on screen information of Gary Mitchell esp test? Which he took before his posing on the Enterprise. He would had been in the academy from 2257 to 2261. If he had taking the fifth year. It would had been 2257-2262. The incident that taking place on Dimorus, would had taking place between 2262-2264.
Actually there is no canon information about any family member of Jim Kirk serving on board the Republic. But there is nothing saying that there wasn't a family member on board the Republic during the time Jim Kirk was serving on board her.
The reference of George Kirk that the writers of the Abrams movie, is from the writings that Gene Roddenberry's had written about him. How do any of you think how the writers of the Star Trek books knew what Kirk dad name was? Gene already had the information about him. But, I don't think he had ever writing about what starship he serve on. Because, it was establish that both parents were members of Starfleet. It would highly likely that Jim Kirk was station on board the same ship or starbase that his parents were station at.
So in short, the answers to both of my questions are "no."
So I'm trying to figure out where you got the idea that Kirk had a relative on the ship, and why his father would have been in command of it, other than that being just your opinion.
Or, how about this:
Kirk graduates SFA and is commissioned ensign. He is assigned as a junior engineering officer in the starship Republic, Capt. Garrovick commanding, which is then based in the Sol system as part of the "home fleet." Kirk discovers the reactor condition and scores points with his captain. After some time Garrovick is ordered to take command of Farragut for a "deep space" exploration mission. Kirk, eager to get "out there," requests a transfer to Farragut, and Garrovick, impressed with the young officer, agrees. They set out on their mission and, at some point, either before or during the voyage, Kirk gets promoted to lieutenant JG. They tangle with the cloud creature and return to base, whereupon Lt. Kirk is given his next assignment as instructor at SFA.
Justin
James Kirk serve on the Farragut from 2254-2257. Then he thought at the Academy from 2257-2262. In 2262 he got his first command, this is the command that his brother Sam, with his three sons saw him off on. And this his the same command that he probably requested for Gary Mitchell to come on. Because his parents weren't there he gotten his first command, but his dad being there when he had gotten command of the Enterprise in 2264. Which would mean that George Kirk was on a deep space mission just before 2264. Which might mean? He had his own command and was still in command of that starship when he had die, it would be more likely that his ship alone with him and his crew went missing. But that is only my own assumption and not canon.
That is essentially how I reconcile it. It seems the simplest explanation to me.
Yup, both of these work out fine - and indeed Capt. Garrovick becomes all the more memorable a character in Kirk's life if he commands multiple starships from the early years of our hero. (Too bad that Garrovick is memorable in one episode only; would have been nice to name-drop him again in a later episode.)
Regarding the hard facts of the early chronology, we don't actually learn the age at which Kirk would have enrolled in the Academy, although backstage sources have always favored him being about 17 or 18. STXI throws a curveball there, theoretically allowing Kirk and Mitchell to study together side by side despite their "age difference" (the silly thing from the personal records which claim Mitchell would be a 23-yr-old Lieutenant Commander - but leave out when he is supposed to be 23!) if we assume Kirk enrolled at a late age.
There are no years attached to the Ben Finney story, other than the difference of "some" years between Finney instructing Kirk and Kirk busting Finney. The story of Lieutenant Kirk at Tyree's planet takes place thirteen years prior to the episode, though, giving us an upper limit on when Kirk got promoted. There is a single year attached to "Obsession": the loss of half the Farragut crew happened 11 years prior, with Lieutenant Kirk a survivor. But we still don't know which exact years the various TOS episodes took place in, other than they happened within five years of the ending date for the five-year mission, 2270.
So we have lots and lots of leeway there, even without resorting to tricks like "he enrolled at a late age" or "he was Lt first, then got busted down to Ensign". Conversely, there's no need to choose a timeline that is problematic somehow when we can choose so many others that proceed nicely and smoothly.
As for George Kirk references, "Conscience of the King" hangs (what in in-universe terms, an in retrospect, would be considered) a red herring in front of our noses when stating that "children saw their parents die" under the murderous reign of Kodos, with young Kirk the only survivor by the surname Kirk. How could little Jimmy have been on that distant colony without at least one of his parents, who thus would be an apparent casualty? Spock Prime shoots down the idea that George Sr. would have died there - but perhaps Winona did?
Timo Saloniemi
Regarding the hard facts of the early chronology, we don't actually learn the age at which Kirk would have enrolled in the Academy, although backstage sources have always favored him being about 17 or 18. STXI throws a curveball there, theoretically allowing Kirk and Mitchell to study together side by side despite their "age difference" (the silly thing from the personal records which claim Mitchell would be a 23-yr-old Lieutenant Commander - but leave out when he is supposed to be 23!) if we assume Kirk enrolled at a late age.
There are no years attached to the Ben Finney story, other than the difference of "some" years between Finney instructing Kirk and Kirk busting Finney. The story of Lieutenant Kirk at Tyree's planet takes place thirteen years prior to the episode, though, giving us an upper limit on when Kirk got promoted. There is a single year attached to "Obsession": the loss of half the Farragut crew happened 11 years prior, with Lieutenant Kirk a survivor. But we still don't know which exact years the various TOS episodes took place in, other than they happened within five years of the ending date for the five-year mission, 2270.
So we have lots and lots of leeway there, even without resorting to tricks like "he enrolled at a late age" or "he was Lt first, then got busted down to Ensign". Conversely, there's no need to choose a timeline that is problematic somehow when we can choose so many others that proceed nicely and smoothly.
As for George Kirk references, "Conscience of the King" hangs (what in in-universe terms, an in retrospect, would be considered) a red herring in front of our noses when stating that "children saw their parents die" under the murderous reign of Kodos, with young Kirk the only survivor by the surname Kirk. How could little Jimmy have been on that distant colony without at least one of his parents, who thus would be an apparent casualty? Spock Prime shoots down the idea that George Sr. would have died there - but perhaps Winona did?
Timo Saloniemi
Always have and always will subscribe to this line of logic.
Based on the facts that Saavik (and two of her class mates!) was a Lieutenant taking Kobayashi Maru, I would even be so bold to say that the Kirk's Kobayashi Maru did also happen after the Farragut incident. That way Lieutenant Kirk would be enrolled in Command School located at Starfleet Academy. Beside his own studies to qualify for starship command it would be in his responsibility to be an instructor for freshmen, i.e. Gary Mitchell.
...OTOH, Kirk's first meeting with Mitchell apparently took place four years before the loss of the Farragut's crew. Or something like that; when Kirk says in "Where No Man" that he has known Mitchell for fifteen years, he could be rounding up or down, and we still lack exact specs on when "Where No Man" and "Obsession" took place - one year apart, or perhaps three?
Unless Mitchell and Kirk were already secretly pals when the former was told to "watch out" for the latter, we probably need to believe in Kirk being instructor before being in charge of phasers on the Farragut (or in an away team from said ship).
Timo Saloniemi
Unless Mitchell and Kirk were already secretly pals when the former was told to "watch out" for the latter, we probably need to believe in Kirk being instructor before being in charge of phasers on the Farragut (or in an away team from said ship).
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah, meeting Mitchell 15 years prior to Where No Man... causes the only real issues. My personal preference is that Kirk attended post-graduate Command School as a Lt/Lt jg (Where he taught, Met Gary and took the Kobiashi Maru test) either in between assignments on the Republic and Farragut, or right after the Farragut. But both of these placements seem too far off of the 15 year remark to seem plausible as Kirk rounding up.
Three solutions:
- Kirk taught classes at the Academy while an upperclassman, holding the rank of Midshipman Lieutenant. During this time he met Midshipmen Mitchell, a freshman.
- Kirk met Mitchell first when he (Kirk) was at the academy (15 years prior to Where No Man...) and was his teacher a few years later while Kirk was in Command School, when Gary was a Midshipman at the Academy.
- Ignore the 15 year statement and get on with life
Why should 15 years be such a problem? In one model, "Where No Man" would be at the beginning of the five-year mission, thus in 2266, making Lieutenant Kirk's instructor stint a 2251 event. But we can decide that 15 is actually 14, that the five-year mission began when Kirk set sail for the distant Galactic Barrier and not when he arrived there, and that Kirk enrolled at seventeen or even sixteen, and we get a 20-yr-old Lt(jg) Kirk meeting Cadet Mitchell in 2253 without significant improbabilities in the timeline. Kirk made it from civilian to Lt in the same time in the recent movie.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Me too. I used to think that Kirk held the rank of Ensign on the Republic because he was on a cadet cruise at the time and took the rank provisionally (while actually *graduating* with Lieutenant rank, as he appears to have almost-done in ST XI as well) but what you have just said makes more sense I think.
Why is it necessary that Kirk meets Mitchell while already either enrolled in or having graduated the Academy? Couldn't Kirk and Mitchell be high school classmates, or having met some other place (like both being Tarsus IV survivors) prior to having anything to do with Starfleet / the Academy?
