Why does the Grand Nagus travel by shuttle?

[Timo]

They certainly didn't appear to feel too compelled to inform the Dominion of their affairs with the Ferengi originally. It sounded more like "We'll have to contact the Board for a permission, I'm afraid. Might take months. Unless, of course, you do the obvious. And we are certainly not suggesting, um, lubrication of any sort. Why suggest when you can simply demand?"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

I would think the Dominion could be better for business. The Federation has a lot of rules that Quark finds repressive.

And yet Quark decided differently -- hence his actions in "Favor the Bold"/"The Sacrifice of Angels," risking his life to ensure the Federation would re-take Deep Space 9.

It seems that if worlds pay their Dominion taxes and don't engage in insurrection they are left alone.

I think that's a very big extrapolation to make from not a whole lot of evidence. What does "don't engage in insurrections" mean? If the local Dominion starbase commander beams down from orbit one day and announces that your world is obliged to transfer 25% of all of its agricultural production to another planet that the Dominion deems more important, even if that means that hundreds of millions of your people will die, is it an "insurrection" if you fight that? Are you really being "left alone" if the Dominion does that to you?

Would the Ferengi have minded? The Karemma seemed to be able to do business well enough despite being "members"...

The Karemma in "Starship Down" were terrified of their trade being found out by the Dominion. They were trying to do it all under the table.

Doesn't sound too conducive to peaceful trade to me.

But to the Karemma do business on their terms or on the Dominion's terms?

Officially, they can only trade on the Dominion's terms -- hence their being terrified that the Dominion would find out they'd been trading with the Federation using the Ferengi as intermediaries to hide the fact.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Well, the Karemma were doing business with the Dominion's enemy in Dominion space. I can understand the Dominion not being happy about that.

 

[Sci]

Well, the Karemma were doing business with the Dominion's enemy in Dominion space. I can understand the Dominion not being happy about that.

Which means that the Dominion officially controls how the Karemma do business, which means that being part of the Dominion involves, y'know, actual repression, not just "give us some tribute and we'll leave you alone."

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I don't think any government would be too happy about their tributaries doing business with the enemy. How would the US feel if any of its allies would do business with North Korea or Cuba, let alone if Puerto Rico or Quam did it.

And here the Karemma are trading with the Federation aboard a Starfleet warship in Dominion space. That would be like going back to WWII and the Seminole tribe having Admiral Yamamoto land in their Florida territory aboard a loaded bomber to do business with the tribe.

 

[Sci]

I don't think any government would be too happy about their tributaries doing business with the enemy. How would the US feel if any of its allies would do business with North Korea or Cuba, let alone if Puerto Rico or Quam did it.

And here the Karemma are trading with the Federation aboard a Starfleet warship in Dominion space. That would be like going back to WWII and the Seminole tribe having Admiral Yamamoto land in their Florida territory aboard a loaded bomber to do business with the tribe.

Considering the longstanding oppression of Native American nations at the hands of the United States government, that's not a very strong argument against the idea that the Dominion is oppressive against the Karemma.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Perhaps, but they haven't been up in arms against the US government in the last hundred years. In fact, many members of the native American tribes volunteered to fight in the US armed forces during WWII.

The fact remains, no government would tolerate such behavior in time of war.

 

[Sci]

Perhaps, but they haven't been up in arms against the US government in the last hundred years.

Yeah, because they were conquered. And meanwhile, Indian reservations are vast pockets of oppression and despair.

So, once again, you're not constructing a persuasive argument that the Karemma aren't oppressed by the Dominion if you're comparing them to Native Americans and the Dominion to the United States.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Vorta seem to enjoy the pleasures of life as well (though they have a limited sense of taste).

Actually I believe the Vorta were specifically designed, by the Founders, not to take pleasure in anything AT ALL, except eating roots and berries from their original homeworld.

FWIW.

 

[Timo]

So, once again, you're not constructing a persuasive argument that the Karemma aren't oppressed by the Dominion if you're comparing them to Native Americans and the Dominion to the United States.

Well, every time you isolate a group within a larger group, you can go and claim that said group is oppressed or misrepresented or whatnot. But categorical doesn't cut it here: one can always pick a group from within the US that is doing well enough and should be smacked in the head for complaining, and repeat the scenario there. Say, what if some well-off German immigrants during the Cuban war invited Kaiser Wilhelm's representatives for a naval visit, ostensibly with aims of promoting trade and cultural exchange, yet allowing his battleships to scout the US East Coast for amphibious invasion sites? What if the deal involved privately selling Pennsylvanian oil and coal to Germany, albeit in small quantities? The two countries wouldn't even be at war, yet the US would certainly feel threatened by this. Foreign trade is subject to regulations in even the most liberal countries today, since no country so far is liberal enough to decide not to be a country any more...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MatthiasRussell]

The Vorta seem to enjoy the pleasures of life as well (though they have a limited sense of taste).

Actually I believe the Vorta were specifically designed, by the Founders, not to take pleasure in anything AT ALL, except eating roots and berries from their original homeworld.

FWIW.

Weyoun seemed to enjoy certain pleasures of life. The Vorta that was captured also seemed to put his personal desires ahead of the will of the founders. They may have been designed a certain way, but that doesn't mean they stuck to those design goals.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Perhaps, but they haven't been up in arms against the US government in the last hundred years.

Yeah, because they were conquered. And meanwhile, Indian reservations are vast pockets of oppression and despair.

So, once again, you're not constructing a persuasive argument that the Karemma aren't oppressed by the Dominion if you're comparing them to Native Americans and the Dominion to the United States.

That one article doesn't convince me that this is the norm across all Indian reervations. I've heard that drug use and illiteracy is high among some tribes but these things are happening across America. Some of the native tribes are quite wealthy and affluent. Besides, as wrong as what the US did to the natives was, if any other people would have come to the US from Europe or Asia, they would have done the same thing. If you read about what the Spanish did to the nativs before the English spread across the continent, it was much worse. The natives probably would have been far worse off under Spanish rule.

Hell, the UFP is still forcing its will on native tribes.

 

[Sci]

Perhaps, but they haven't been up in arms against the US government in the last hundred years.

Yeah, because they were conquered. And meanwhile, Indian reservations are vast pockets of oppression and despair.

So, once again, you're not constructing a persuasive argument that the Karemma aren't oppressed by the Dominion if you're comparing them to Native Americans and the Dominion to the United States.

That one article doesn't convince me that this is the norm across all Indian reervations.

Read some more articles.

Besides, as wrong as what the US did to the natives was, if any other people would have come to the US from Europe or Asia, they would have done the same thing.

So what? That doesn't mean it's not oppression -- and that doesn't mean you've constructed a strong argument that the Dominion is not oppressing the Karemma by comparing them to Native Americans.

Hell, the UFP is still forcing its will on native tribes.

No, the UFP almost did so until it, in the person of Jean-Luc Picard, realized that they would be perpetuating centuries of oppression. So they stopped.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Starfleet and Picard were willing and ready to forcibly relocate those Indians until both they and the Cardassians came to an agrrement. The decision to not relocate them was not due to Starfleet or Picard; as much as they found the matter distasteful they were still going to do it.


I'm saying in the instance of the Karemma, the Dominion wasn't doing anything that the UFP or any modern human government wouldn't do. I wouldn't cause it oppression either when a government doesn't allow trade with the enemy within their territory.

If a native American tribe attempted to do trade with the Axis powers during war time, I think the US would have been well within its rights to stop it and no one would call such actions oppression.

 

[Sci]

Starfleet and Picard were willing and ready to forcibly relocate those Indians until both they and the Cardassians came to an agrrement.

No, they were willing to do so until Picard realized that he'd be perpetuating centuries of oppression yet again, so he looked for another way out.

I'm saying in the instance of the Karemma, the Dominion wasn't doing anything that the UFP or any modern human government wouldn't do.

But that still means that trade only gets to happen on the Dominion's terms.

If a native American tribe attempted to do trade with the Axis powers during war time, I think the US would have been well within its rights to stop it and no one would call such actions oppression.

Maybe, maybe not. Fortunately, the Native American tribes knew that even as oppressive as the U.S. government was towards them, the Axis governments would have been worse, so it doesn't really matter.

But it's still a bad comparison to make if your rhetorical goal is to argue that the Dominion is not oppressing the Karemma. The better comparison would be to, say, the Commonwealth of Virginia.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually I believe the Vorta were specifically designed, by the Founders, not to take pleasure in anything AT ALL, except eating roots and berries from their original homeworld.

FWIW.

Weyoun seemed to enjoy certain pleasures of life. The Vorta that was captured also seemed to put his personal desires ahead of the will of the founders. They may have been designed a certain way, but that doesn't mean they stuck to those design goals.

Some Vorta can be defective (re: Weyoun 6).

As for Keevan: He valued his own personal safety, of course, possibly above that of the Jem'Hadar under his command. But if confronted by a Founder, I'm sure Keevan would have been as ready to obey as any other Vorta would.

I should rephrase: Vorta take pleasure in serving the Founders, and beyond that, only in eating certain native roots and berries.

 

[Ezri D]

Never understood why sice you have pointed it out. If he is that rich and that powerful, he should have a nice ship. Then again, we really never see their warships during DS9.

 

[DonIago]

He didn't become rich and powerful by blowing his money on gaudy ships.

 

[Ezri D]

He didn't become rich and powerful by blowing his money on gaudy ships.

But, if I have a gaudy ship I can over take his shuttle and take his money. How much money the Grand Magus will give me and my crew if I do not toss him out the airlock?

 

[Sindatur]

Never understood why sice you have pointed it out. If he is that rich and that powerful, he should have a nice ship. Then again, we really never see their warships during DS9.

Everyone can see how big the Nagus' ears are, there's no reason for him to drive a Big truck to compensate for other shortcomings