Only Earth names for starships?

[MacLeod]

Some will no doubt disagree but one could argue that a Federation ship called USS Tian'an'men is about people standing up to a communist regime

a ship called the USS Margret Thatcher is about a leader standing upto the rights of a people to choose if the want to be British or Agentinian.

Of course if you are the Chinese or Argentinian side you might see things different. But that's today only decades after the events. What about in 300 years time.

Really for example do really think Brits for example care for example if the USA name their ships after the people who declared independance from Britain over 200 years ago?

 

[Captain Rob]

So who wants to be stationed abourd the Federation starship Titanic?
Too soon?

 

[MacLeod]

Could be worse could be S.S. Titanic a civilian ship

 

[Sci]

There hasn't been another US Navy ship named Constitution in 200 years. Because "Old Ironsides", USS Constitution, in Boston is still considered on the active Naval vessel registry. So do we suppose that it doesn't survive into Starfleet's time? Or do they consider it belonging to a separate service?

It is of course possible that United States Ship Constitution survives into the 24th Century -- presuming she isn't destroyed in World War III, of course. But she would obviously belong to a separate service (the United States Navy) from the Federation Starfleet.

What I was trying to say, but what was obviously not gotten over at all, was that naming something after a battle say. For example, one side (the US) claims Lexington as a great victory for freedom, the other (the British) remembers that the same battle was a Rebellion against the internationally recognised legal authority (the Crown specifically and Parliament), no matter that it had a long-term consequences, is, in this era of cultural relativity, where everybody's opinion is equally important and there is very little definite truth or fact, somewhat delicate. Particularly if there were various opportunities in the run up to a conflict or disaster to avert the crisis or decisions made and actions taken that only served to exasberate the situation and were not actually necessary in the first place, the utterly mad Stamp Act is the great example here, but there are lots of others dotted through history. Even calling something Tiananmen is potentially hideously awkward and likely to be edited out in a Chinese broadcast, simply because as astonishingly brave as those protesters were, they failed in all of their aims. China remains a nominally Communist country and sadly, it looks very much like it will remain so for some time to comes. Would you choose to name something after Mrs Thatcher? The Argentines would never allow it or forgive you, despite the fact that their military defeat as well as economic meltdown in 1982 destroyed the credibility of military rule once and for all and they reclaimed their freedom in consequence. You can't name anything after an Israeli either, or after Theodore Herzl father of Zionism or certain Arabs for the same reason, its not socially acceptable to some audiences. National identity is not likely to disappear completely, no matter how long the union lasts, identity is built into us. The Scots, the Bavarians, the Catalans and more violently, the Chechens and the Timorese show that as a few examples. Any space navy, real or imagined would have to remember that and the producers of Star Trek didn't.

Let me put it this way:

I think that in the ear of United Earth and the United Federation of Planets, Humans still quite proud of their national heritages. But I suspect that they are also now quite willing to admit when their nations did wrong in the past, and are willing to sacrifice other nations' victories over their own when their ancestors were in the wrong.

So, yes, I suspect that in the 24th Century, British Federates are willing to celebrate the success of the American Revolution by having ships with names like Lexington. Similarly, I'd be willing to bet that 24th Century American Federates are willing to celebrate the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and Arapaho victory over American imperialism at Little Bighorn by naming a ship U.S.S. Greasy Grass. I'd bet a 24th Century Argentine Federate would be willing to celebrate a foreign leader who defeated the military junta in principle, but would probably object to Margaret Thatcher for other reasons -- namely, her rather ruthless neo-liberal economic policies. (Perhaps there's a U.S.S. Madres de la Plaza de Mayo or a U.S.S. Raúl Alfonsín?) Etc.

For the record, there is already a canonical U.S.S. Tian An Men named in honor of those who died in the 1989 crackdown.

So who wants to be stationed abourd the Federation starship Titanic?

Too soon?

Too soon.

 

[T'Girl]

I would propose, instead of naming them after people, concepts that people can get behind, Constitution is completely appropriate

Constitution class ships are known as "The Connies." In a old thread in (I believe) the art section, one poster named his ships "The Maggies," for the Magna Carta class. I then proposed "The Mannys" for the Manifesto class.

Later I wrote a fanfic story aboard "The Clares." Three Declaration Class frigates, named Independence, Helsinki and Principals.

 

[Magellan]

I've often thought/wondered that the reason that we see so many Earth names is because "starfleet" is the Earth starfleet. It is the largest and best equipped( or possibly the only one equipped for combat) but that each member world/species still maintains there own fleet. Perhaps many members forgoe having much aof a fleet at all(free riders) or maybe Vulcans only maintain scientific ships leaving most/all the defense responsibilities to the Earth Starfleet. IS there anything on screen contradicting this?

 

[captcalhoun]

"...Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation starship Enterprise." or "Captain Janeway of the Federation starship Voyager."

 

[C.E. Evans]

I've often thought/wondered that the reason that we see so many Earth names is because "starfleet" is the Earth starfleet. It is the largest and best equipped( or possibly the only one equipped for combat) but that each member world/species still maintains there own fleet. Perhaps many members forgoe having much aof a fleet at all(free riders) or maybe Vulcans only maintain scientific ships leaving most/all the defense responsibilities to the Earth Starfleet. IS there anything on screen contradicting this?

It is a valid point. While Starfleet is an agency of the Federation, it need not be the only agency it has. Even in the 24th-Century, there were still ships of Vulcan and Tellarite design, so planetary fleets may still exist, but with the Earth-based Starfleet tasked with a broader scope of responsibilities.

 

[captcalhoun]

Tellarite? when did we ever see a Tellarite ship in the 24C?

 

[Sci]

"...Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation starship Enterprise." or "Captain Janeway of the Federation starship Voyager."

Starfleet is also referred to as the Federation Starfleet numerous times in DS9.

Only in ENT do we follow the adventures of the United Earth Starfleet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

. While Starfleet is an agency of the Federation, it need not be the only agency it has.

The only other *canon* 'agency', as you call it, that we have heard of, is the Federation Naval Patrol. We don't know exactly what it does, although I'm guessing it's a Coast Guard-like thing.

As for Starfleet, Kirk described it as a "combined service", so I'm guessing this means that in TOS and later times, Starfleet fulfills all military needs of the entire Federation.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've often thought/wondered that the reason that we see so many Earth names is because "starfleet" is the Earth starfleet. It is the largest and best equipped( or possibly the only one equipped for combat) but that each member world/species still maintains there own fleet. Perhaps many members forgoe having much aof a fleet at all(free riders) or maybe Vulcans only maintain scientific ships leaving most/all the defense responsibilities to the Earth Starfleet. IS there anything on screen contradicting this?

The DS9 episode Rapture, a Starfleet Admiral says that once Bajor joins the Federation the Bajoran Militia will be absorbed into Starfleet.

The only other *canon* 'agency', as you call it, that we have heard of, is the Federation Naval Patrol. We don't know exactly what it does, although I'm guessing it's a Coast Guard-like thing.

The Federation Naval Patrol is likely related to oceans, given that Tom Paris mentions wanting to join it because of his love of the ocean.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Tellarite? when did we ever see a Tellarite ship in the 24C?

In DS9's "Shadowplay," a Tellarite freighter was docked at the station. One of Quark's cousins beamed onto the ship just as it was leaving to avoid being arrested.

. While Starfleet is an agency of the Federation, it need not be the only agency it has.

The only other *canon* 'agency', as you call it, that we have heard of, is the Federation Naval Patrol. We don't know exactly what it does, although I'm guessing it's a Coast Guard-like thing.

A few other Federation agencies mentioned here and there:
Federation Astronomical Committee
Federation Bureau of Agricultural Affairs
Federation Department of Cartography
Federation Department of Temporal Investigations
Federation Diplomatic Corps
Federation Division of Planetary Operations
Federation Science Bureau
Federation Security (not to be confused with Starfleet Security)

Additionally, individual Federation member worlds--in particular, Vulcan--have maintained their own planetary agencies and institutions as well (the Vulcan National Merchant Fleet*, the Bolian Credit Exchange, etc). The ship that Spock-Prime piloted that crossed over into the alternate universe was from the Vulcan Science Academy.

*
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/_...es/0/06/TPau_-_Qualor_II_database_display.jpg

 

[BillJ]

...Starfleet fulfills all military needs of the entire Federation.

But Starfleet isn't the military... *runs away*

 

[Magellan]

"...Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation starship Enterprise." or "Captain Janeway of the Federation starship Voyager."

Noted. But of course they are Federation starships, but perhaps subsection earth/human(not that other races are excluded from service.

A Vulcan science vessel might also identify as Federation starship. I just prefer to think of the Federation cooperates in interstellar activities but still largely the meber worlds do more or less what they want to do. There is some evidence to support this I think.

The only other alternative I see is that humans are so fecund they compromise the majority of Federation citizens. This is also possible. Maybe there are 50 or 100 billion humans in the 24th century and maybe only 300 million Tellarites.

 

[captcalhoun]

well, individual planets may have merchant fleets operating freighters, but they don't seem to have military ships.

 

[MacLeod]

Or perhaps humans just have more desire to explore the universe. Other races appear to have had intersettlar travel for decades our centuries before humans discovered it.

Given the Federations size by the TNG era (spanning 8000ly) most of the ships we've seen appear to be operating near Earth (relatively speaking) so perhaps in the regions further from Earth, humans form a lower part of the crew of those ships. In both TOS and DSN we've had referrences to Vulcan only crews. So perhaps their are Andorian only crewed ships.

 

[C.E. Evans]

well, individual planets may have merchant fleets operating freighters, but they don't seem to have military ships.

It's possible for some of these ships to be armed, however, if only for self-defense purposes in regions where Starfleet's presence is limited. It's unlikely they have anything to the extent of Starfleet vessels, IMO, but they might have a permit to carry a phaser bank.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

...Starfleet fulfills all military needs of the entire Federation.

But Starfleet isn't the military... *runs away*

Starfleet isn't *militaristic*. It is a military. We've all seen it. I could give a damn what Picard says.

 

[BillJ]

...Starfleet fulfills all military needs of the entire Federation.

But Starfleet isn't the military... *runs away*

Starfleet isn't *militaristic*. It is a military. We've all seen it. I could give a damn what Picard says.