4 genders make so evolutionary/developmental sense

[Sci]

^^ Is there any aspect of Trek Lit you do enjoy, Edit? I don't think I've ever seen you post without condemning something as bad writing for some reason or other.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

But they never excluded the possibility that there could be.[...]In the absence of any evidence excluding the four-gender paradigm written for the Andorians, and--as Therin of Andor suggests--some evidence allowing for the possibility, what's the harm?

They never excluded the possibility that trek humans are actually shapeshifters whose original form is pink-haired poneys and who are bent on conquering the galaxy through spreading happy thoughts, their endgame being the sudden and senseless extermination of their newly conquered galaxy.
Do you think that's a viable possibility, rfmcdpei? Just because it was never directly spelled out that humans are not pink-haired poneys?

You're a My Little Pony fan? I don't blame you: clean animation and good writing make for an enjoyable show. :-)



I think it may not be the case; or, I think it creates an interesting idea. Is the Andorian four-gender paradigm any worse for being complex and non-canon than, say, the Rihannsu language, or the complexities of Bajoran religion presented in the DS9 relaunch, or the detail given to the Tzenkethi of late?

As said:
"Likewise, the andorians were clearly intended to have 2 genders in canon - a 2 gender relation was even presented in Ent S4."

Whether you think 4 genders are a good ideea is irrelevant regarding the scenarists' intent - which I was addressing.

Why, necessarily? It makes things more complicated, but to that degree?

I actually went to the trouble of posting a quantification of the 'touble' - one extremely biased in your position's favour - 48 children, etc (remember my previous post?).

Would the defenses of bacteria like Deinococcur radiodurans be scalable up to the level of a complex multicellular organism?

Also: does the success of Deinococcus' approach exclude others?

1 - yes, it would work - multicellular organisms are made of cells, similar to bacteria (regarding genetic machinery).

2 - it would exclude any approach that is FAR more inefficient - such as 4 genders.

The multipolar mating systems of Terran fungi are worth noting in this context.

http://blog.mycology.cornell.edu/?p=1060

You may notice how it takes only 2 fungi to reproduce.
Also, how they're essentially genetically programmed robots - no room for individuality whatsoever.

It's also worth noting that Andor: Paradigm acknowledged the relative unlikeliness of the scenario arising in nature, and the near-total lack of other species on the Andorian homeworld making use of the four-gender paradigm and the possibility that the Andorians might not be native to their homeworld. If this isn't the case and the Andorians are in fact immigrants--maybe even an ancient civilization's science project--then questions about the four-gender paradigm's unlikely natural evolution go out the window.

None of which changes the fact that 4 sexes needed for reproduction are biologically ludicrous, from an evolutionary and survival standpoint.

You 'ancient civilization science project' could be an explanation. But even that doesn't explain how the andorians managed to survive/maintain their numbers.

So, unless andorians are genetically programed to the extent of being meat puppets:
In order to have a stable population with a 4 bond, the 4 individuals would need to have ~48 children (all of whom must live). The problem with this is, you need resources to raise ALL these children - which, evolutionary speaking, condemns these 48 children to starvation more often than not.

Andorian sociology and economics would be interesting and complex, but IMHO not more inherently problematic than Vulcan's evolving a high-tech civilization on the surface of a desert planet, or Qo'Nos supporting a high-tech civilization despite exceptionally high levels of civil strife.

You won't see me arguing that fantasy species from trek are scientifically plausible - as you do argue with the andorians.
I accept them as fantasy.

BTW, medieval Europe could teach the klingons a lesson or two about violence, mortality (of any type), political murder, war, etc.

Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

But I haven't seen you here criticizing Trek lit for covering Odo and the Q here. What gives?

As already said: I criticize the overinsistence on a tired theme and - on this thread - playing fast and loose with science while claiming not to do so.

 

[rfmcdpei]

None of which changes the fact that 4 sexes needed for reproduction are biologically ludicrous, from an evolutionary and survival standpoint.

... to the point of being completely impossible? No one's disagreeing that it's low-probability, but multiple genders in the Andorian style was introduced arguably because of its interestingness and its low probability.

You 'ancient civilization science project' could be an explanation. But even that doesn't explain how the andorians managed to survive/maintain their numbers.

The Treklit novels establish, famously, that the Andorians do have considerable problems with sustaining their populations, even that some Andorians saw genetic engineering to produce a two-gender successor species as the only way for anything Andorian to survive.

Think of it this way. I've posted elsewhere that's an established fact that, in the neighbourhood of Sol, all four of the closet yellow dwarf stars, at least four of the five closest orange dwarf stars, and an unknown number of red dwarf stars support at least one class-M world. That the near-totality of stars in the Star Trek universe potentially capable of supporting class-M world do support class-M worlds is hugely in excess of even the most optimistic current surveys of exoplanets suggest. (Andor ultimately in orbit of Procyon, and substantial colonies in the systems of Vega and Altair, suggest life-supporting conditions might exist almost everywhere.)

Is this possible, if very low-probability? Sure. Maybe there's an unusual clustering effect around Sol now; maybe life and biospheres are that easy to spread. I'd reduce the number of class-M planets sharply if I was creating my own setting, but the plethora of class-M environments also work for me. In any case, the Star Trek universe is one where advanced civilizations capable of engineering planetary environments have existed for hundreds of millions of years: maybe the huge number was engineered by successive civilizations. Does it matter?

 

[Therin of Andor]

what's amusing is the insistence of posters in ascribing scientific plausibility to something that has none (which even a cursory inspection reveals) - the 4 genders.

So what are you asking for?

No more Andorians in tie-in fiction ever? A giant retraction of everything Andor-wise in the various Relaunches? I should throw away my deluxe size bottle of blue bodywash?

Are you also angry with canonical treatment of Andorian antennae placement? It was different in each appearance: ie. TOS, TMP, ST IV, TNG and ENT. No canonical explanation offered. Are you also angry that the canonical "Gamesters of Triskelion" Andorian drill thrall had a pink tummy? That Thelin of "Yesteryear" (TAS) was grey? That the Lal android Andorian ("The Offspring") was strangely green?

 

[Stoek]

It ain't over, 'til it's over.

Yogi Berra

That I think is the first crucial thing to understand about evolution. Strictly speaking there is no such thing as evolutionary "success" because the word implies that something permanent has been achieved. Instead I think a more useful way of looking at it is that something hasn't failed yet. In the case of the Andorians for generations the four gendered reproduction system had not failed. But as we have learned that is no longer the case. So now we get to see the very interesting story of how a self aware and technologically advanced species deals with the potential end of its existence as it fights against the possibility that it may be in the process of becoming yet another in a long string (galactically speaking) of evolutionary failures. Personally I think this is a deeply interesting story and I'm pleased that they have not allowed there to be a simple pat solution.

Now as for proclaiming the Andorians "one note" because of it, I would ask are the Vulcan's one note because of Pon Farr? I certainly don't think so.

As already said: I criticize the overinsistence on a tired theme and - on this thread - playing fast and loose with science while claiming not to do so.

Really? Playing fast and loose with science... by Christopher...? Playing fast and loose with science by Mr. There are less thoroughly researched physics papers than my books Bennet? Um wow. Hey tell me another one while I go and fertilize my roses with that one.

 

[Christopher]

Star Trek is a franchise where the overwhelming majority of aliens look like human beings with extra bits added, and where aliens from totally separate biospheres can interbreed and produce viable offspring. Both of those are completely ridiculous from a biological or evolutionary standpoint. So if you can suspend disbelief about those, it should be comparatively easy to suspend disbelief about a species having four sexes.

 

[Therin of Andor]

As said:
"Likewise, the andorians were clearly intended to have 2 genders in canon...

And you know what? I still suspect that Data's unfinished line about Andorian marriage was a deliberate homage to the Leslie Fish Andorian fanfics of the 70s, in which the Andorians had more than two sexes. Her writings (including her filksongs) were known to many of the crew on the various ST series, especially those who were members of "first fandom" and who ended up working at Paramount professionally in the 80s, 90s and 00s.

(I know for a fact that the Pennington School of Journalism was named for New Zealand fan, Lana Pennington, who had built up a rapport with the writing teams on TNG and DS9. That Q in TNG was named for UK fan, Janet Quarton. That Geordi LaForge was named for young handicapped US fan, the late George LaForge. There are homages in ST everywhere!)

- a 2 gender relation was even presented in Ent S4."

We saw a courtship between a seemingly male and a seemingly female Andorian, yes. But... we'd also already seen a rather androgynous male (Tholos) who seemingly flirted with both the male and female Enterprise crew ("The Andorian Incident"), and a feisty female who towered over the males (Tarah in "Cease Fire").

The DS9 Relaunch novels had already shown Shar having an intimate, secret relationship with one member of his bondgroup, a fact they'd tried to hide from the other two members.

irrelevant regarding the scenarists' intent

Which we still don't know. Your interpretation happens to differ to ours. And until Harold Apter & Ronald D Moore, or Fred Dekker, come along to say who's wrong, it will still be open to interpretation.

 

[Sci]

And, frankly, why does scenarists' intent matter if they didn't explicitly translate their intent into the text? Trek Lit is required to be consistent with what is canonical, not with every piece of behind-the-scenes intent. There's no reason in the world to care if the ENT producers intended for their Andorians to have two sexes if they never explicitly stated it as such.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Star Trek is a franchise where the overwhelming majority of aliens look like human beings with extra bits added, and where aliens from totally separate biospheres can interbreed and produce viable offspring. Both of those are completely ridiculous from a biological or evolutionary standpoint. So if you can suspend disbelief about those, it should be comparatively easy to suspend disbelief about a species having four sexes.

+10

A great point, I was going to bring it up but you said it far better than I could.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Star Trek is a franchise where the overwhelming majority of aliens look like human beings with extra bits added, and where aliens from totally separate biospheres can interbreed and produce viable offspring. Both of those are completely ridiculous from a biological or evolutionary standpoint. So if you can suspend disbelief about those, it should be comparatively easy to suspend disbelief about a species having four sexes.

+10

A great point, I was going to bring it up but you said it far better than I could.

As I Said:
"Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

Which is fine - trek is a largely fantasy setting - as long as one is aware of such concepts being scientifically unsupported fantasy and treats them accordingly.
But when one treats 4 genders as a viable (from a real world perspective) evolutionary development, as happens in this thread - ."

The Treklit novels establish, famously, that the Andorians do have considerable problems with sustaining their populations, even that some Andorians saw genetic engineering to produce a two-gender successor species as the only way for anything Andorian to survive.

Think of it this way. I've posted elsewhere that's an established fact that, in the neighbourhood of Sol, all four of the closet yellow dwarf stars, at least four of the five closest orange dwarf stars, and an unknown number of red dwarf stars support at least one class-M world. That the near-totality of stars in the Star Trek universe potentially capable of supporting class-M world do support class-M worlds is hugely in excess of even the most optimistic current surveys of exoplanets suggest. (Andor ultimately in orbit of Procyon, and substantial colonies in the systems of Vega and Altair, suggest life-supporting conditions might exist almost everywhere.)

Is this possible, if very low-probability? Sure. Maybe there's an unusual clustering effect around Sol now; maybe life and biospheres are that easy to spread. I'd reduce the number of class-M planets sharply if I was creating my own setting, but the plethora of class-M environments also work for me. In any case, the Star Trek universe is one where advanced civilizations capable of engineering planetary environments have existed for hundreds of millions of years: maybe the huge number was engineered by successive civilizations. Does it matter?

For the story, yes. That's not a bad thing - just suspend disbelief.

But if you come into a thread and start explaining how this universe is scientifically grounded and justified, I reserve the right to .

Now as for proclaiming the Andorians "one note" because of it, I would ask are the Vulcan's one note because of Pon Farr? I certainly don't think so.

As already said: I criticize the overinsistence on a tired theme and - on this thread - playing fast and loose with science while claiming not to do so.

Really? Playing fast and loose with science... by Christopher...? Playing fast and loose with science by Mr. There are less thoroughly researched physics papers than my books Bennet? Um wow. Hey tell me another one while I go and fertilize my roses with that one.

I showed WHY 4 genders are scientifically ludicrous, thereby proving it.

You only managed to come up with an appeal to authority and an ad personam. All you proved is that you're logically challenged.

PS - The vulcans are not one-note, as the andorians are, because not all their appearances revolve around pon farr and it effects (not even close), while all andorian story-lines revolve around 4 genders (and complications).

 

[Edit_XYZ]

As said:
"Likewise, the andorians were clearly intended to have 2 genders in canon...

And you know what? I still suspect that Data's unfinished line about Andorian marriage was a deliberate homage to the Leslie Fish Andorian fanfics of the 70s, in which the Andorians had more than two sexes. Her writings (including her filksongs) were known to many of the crew on the various ST series, especially those who were members of "first fandom" and who ended up working at Paramount professionally in the 80s, 90s and 00s.[...]We saw a courtship between a seemingly male and a seemingly female Andorian, yes. [...]But... we'd also already seen a rather androgynous male (Tholos) who seemingly flirted with both the male and female Enterprise crew ("The Andorian Incident"), and a feisty female who towered over the males (Tarah in "Cease Fire").[...]Which we still don't know. Your interpretation happens to differ to ours. And until Harold Apter & Ronald D Moore, or Fred Dekker, come along to say who's wrong, it will still be open to interpretation.

Really? Data's unfinished line?
And of course the feisty female was not intended to be female, etc .

The fact that all you can come up with are such minutiae you have to look at very biased to find ambiguous shows the weakness of your argument.

O, and the fact that the scenarists didn't spell out directly their intent (they did show it abundantly in Ent) only makes their intent virtually certain (extremely likely) as opposed to certain.

 

[Therin of Andor]

you have to look at very biased

I notice you ignored this set of questions in my earlier post:

"So what are you asking for? No more Andorians in tie-in fiction ever? A giant retraction of everything Andor-wise in the various Relaunches? I should throw away my deluxe size bottle of blue bodywash?"

My TrekBBS nick is "Therin of Andor" and I've been following Andorians, both canonical and literary, closely since 1980. I've made costumes, hosted conventions as an Andorian and featured in several fan films. I maintain an extensive website focused entirely on Andorians.

Of course I'm biased!

And of course the feisty female was not intended to be female, etc .

Yes, Tarah was female. I never said she wasn't. Treklit simply proposes that there are two very distinct types of female Andorian. And two types of male Andorian.

... shows the weakness of your argument.

For you, every opinion other than your own is seemingly "weak".

So what do you propose we do about this four-gender situation? Slap Pocket Books with a black ban, demand a complete retraction on every Andorian storyline since the DS9 Relaunch, or just accept and enjoy the fiction?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps a Vendetta-style disclaimer on future Andorian novels:
"The plot and background details of the Andorians are solely the authors' interpretation of the universe of Star Trek and vary in some respects from the universe as imagined by Edit_XYZ"

 

[Edit_XYZ]

So what do you propose we do about this four-gender situation? Slap Pocket Books with a black ban, demand a complete retraction on every Andorian storyline since the DS9 Relaunch, or just accept and enjoy the fiction?

Hardly.
I made my position clear several times in this thread:
"And what's bad writing is not the andorian species - fantasy species are common throughout star trek. It's rehashing a single motive again and again with it.
In the context of this thread, what's amusing is the insistence of posters in ascribing scientific plausibility to something that has none (which even a cursory inspection reveals) - the 4 genders."
or
"Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

Which is fine - trek is a largely fantasy setting - as long as one is aware of such concepts being scientifically unsupported fantasy and treats them accordingly.
But when one treats 4 genders as a viable (from a real world perspective) evolutionary development, as happens in this thread - ."

What should be done about the andorians?
Simply give them plot-lines that don't center around the 4 genders and its complications - 'blink and you'll miss' background notwithstanding.

 

[Therin of Andor]

What should be done about the andorians?
Simply give them plot-lines that don't center around the 4 genders and its complications

Mmmm, I seem to have a strong remembrance of you objecting loudly, in other threads, to the current/forthcoming other significant Andorian subplots: the secession of Andor from the UFP, its effects on Andorians currently serving in Starfleet, and the possibility of Andor joining the Typhon Pact.

Oh yeah, you'll say all three are linked too closely with the four-gender paradigm.

Or am I thinking of xortex?

as long as one is aware of such concepts being scientifically unsupported fantasy and treats them accordingly.

Like the existence of Spock, Troi, K'Ehleyr, Alexander, B'Elanna, Naomi...?

 

[Sci]

So what do you propose we do about this four-gender situation? Slap Pocket Books with a black ban, demand a complete retraction on every Andorian storyline since the DS9 Relaunch, or just accept and enjoy the fiction?

Hardly.
I made my position clear several times in this thread:
"And what's bad writing is not the andorian species - fantasy species are common throughout star trek. It's rehashing a single motive again and again with it.
In the context of this thread, what's amusing is the insistence of posters in ascribing scientific plausibility to something that has none (which even a cursory inspection reveals) - the 4 genders."
or
"Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

Which is fine - trek is a largely fantasy setting - as long as one is aware of such concepts being scientifically unsupported fantasy and treats them accordingly.
But when one treats 4 genders as a viable (from a real world perspective) evolutionary development, as happens in this thread - ."

What should be done about the andorians?
Simply give them plot-lines that don't center around the 4 genders and its complications - 'blink and you'll miss' background notwithstanding.

Stop Having Fun, Guys!

 

[rfmcdpei]

Star Trek is a franchise where the overwhelming majority of aliens look like human beings with extra bits added, and where aliens from totally separate biospheres can interbreed and produce viable offspring. Both of those are completely ridiculous from a biological or evolutionary standpoint. So if you can suspend disbelief about those, it should be comparatively easy to suspend disbelief about a species having four sexes.

+10

A great point, I was going to bring it up but you said it far better than I could.

As I Said:
"Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

Which is fine - trek is a largely fantasy setting - as long as one is aware of such concepts being scientifically unsupported fantasy and treats them accordingly.
But when one treats 4 genders as a viable (from a real world perspective) evolutionary development, as happens in this thread - ."

You don't seem to be distinguishing adequately between low-probability-but-possible and improbable-and-impossible.

I showed WHY 4 genders are scientifically ludicrous, thereby proving it.

You showed that there would be more likely scenarios, but you didn't demonstrate that a four-gender sexuality was impossible. (This is especially for the case if you allow, as is often the case in Star Trek, for the possibility of intervention by an ancient technologically advanced species in explaining how something improbable came about.)

PS - The vulcans are not one-note, as the andorians are, because not all their appearances revolve around pon farr and it effects (not even close), while all andorian story-lines revolve around 4 genders (and complications).

I don't know about you, but I found the discussion of the threat of Andorian extinction enthralling. Maybe it's because one of my hobbies is dealing with demographics; maybe it's because there are all kinds of species that are described as having gone through, or nearly finished, similar processes of extinction. Cf Bajor and its major themes of post-colonial identity and development.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Stop Having Fun, Guys!

"... who dislike/condescend to 'casual' gamers who don't play the same way they do."

I assume the plural was aimed at both of us. To whom was I being condescending? And in what way has it been fun?

 

[Sci]

Stop Having Fun, Guys!

"... who dislike/condescend to 'casual' gamers who don't play the same way they do."

I assume the plural was aimed at both of us.

No, it was aimed squarely at Edit, who seems to object to the idea that anyone else might dare enjoy the 4-sex paradigm for the Andorians.

 

[Therin of Andor]

No, it was aimed squarely at Edit, who seems to object to the idea that anyone else might dare enjoy the 4-sex paradigm for the Andorians.

Whew. Thanks.