4 genders make so evolutionary/developmental sense

[Sci]

What made "The Andorian Incident" (ENT) so much fun for me was working out what genders Shran's comrades were.

Male and female. The 4 genders were not established then (or at any other time in canon).

Ash Therin was noted, the four Andorian sexes had already been established in TrekLit before "The Andorian Incident" aired. Therin is talking about how to interpret the episode through the lense of what TrekLit had established about Andorian sexes, in order to reconcile the canon with the lit; some of us find that fun.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The 4 genders were not established then (or at any other time in canon).

The novel duology "DS9: Avatar", which kicked off the non canonical four-sex Andorian paradigm, was launched in May 2001, the same month the series "Enterprise" began production. "The Andorian Incident" episode filmed about eight weeks later, and aired in October 2001.

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

As I said - the scenarists never had any intention of establishing 4 andorian genders on-screen.

If you think the scenarists actually intended to establish them in that - or any other episode - oookay...

I didn't say they intended to follow TrekLit, but it is definitely possible some writers were influenced. Andre Bormanis and Manny Coto, when they worked on "The Aenar", were influenced by the Last Unicorn Games' manual, "Amongst the Clans", taking the icy world depicted on the cover, and factoids about the ushaan and traditional weaponry, into canon.

NOT influenced by the 4 genders stick.

The 4 genders brought the andorians briefly to the forefront of trek lit.
But they became really over-used. You'd think trek lit could focus on other aspects of the andorian culture instead...

There have been plenty of Andorian cultural aspects introduced in the TrekLit. I have a website that catalogs them.

And most of them are most likely are related to - or involve - the 4 genders - this being the andorian 'thing' in trek lit.

the andorians are one-trick poneys, at this point.

Say that again and I'll... hold my breath until I turn blue.

 

[Sci]

The 4 genders were not established then (or at any other time in canon).

The novel duology "DS9: Avatar", which kicked off the non canonical four-sex Andorian paradigm, was launched in May 2001, the same month the series "Enterprise" began production. "The Andorian Incident" episode filmed about eight weeks later, and aired in October 2001.

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

Fortunately, Trek Lit had long since established that Andorians sometimes have pair relationships outside of their bondgroups, particularly if they are older (as Shran certainly is). So, once again, no inconsistency!

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The novel duology "DS9: Avatar", which kicked off the non canonical four-sex Andorian paradigm, was launched in May 2001, the same month the series "Enterprise" began production. "The Andorian Incident" episode filmed about eight weeks later, and aired in October 2001.

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

Fortunately, Trek Lit had long since established that Andorians sometimes have pair relationships outside of their bondgroups, particularly if they are older (as Shran certainly is). So, once again, no inconsistency!

Trek lit, once again - not canon.

The problem with the 4 genders is that it was overutilised. DS9 relaunch - that (and family tension resulting from that) was insisted upon every time andorians were part of the story.
Typhon pact - the same thing.

The only thing andorians have beyond the 4 genders and blue antennae is that they're in the process of betraying the federation, becoming enemy cold warriors.

 

[Sci]

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

Fortunately, Trek Lit had long since established that Andorians sometimes have pair relationships outside of their bondgroups, particularly if they are older (as Shran certainly is). So, once again, no inconsistency!

Trek lit, once again - not canon.

Yeah, but so what? This is the Trek Lit board after all, and nothing in those episodes explicitly contradicts the four-sex paradigm. And we are talking about interpreting the canon through the lense of Trek Lit for fun.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And most of them are most likely are related to - or involve - the 4 genders - this being the andorian 'thing' in trek lit.

And... you would be wrong.

I shouldn't have to reproduce every post-Relaunch paragraph from my site here. We have learned much about Andorian culture since "Avatar". For a while there, it was coming so thick and fast some publication months I was adding entire pages to my website. And the aspects were often nothing to do with four sexes. I also have about 20 now-read novels filled with tiny bookmarks, ready for a major update. ("Paths of Disharmony" would have had little bookmarks on almost every page, but I first read that one in digital manuscripted, uncorrected, form.)

A very quick five-minute check of just one section of two of my online pages gives us:

http://andorfiles.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/rel-rogues-gallery.html

Shar's antennae are not auditory organs, but can detect electrical fields, changes in air density, temperature, strong emotions, adrenaline or teptaline. Shar finds that Deep Space 9's common areas are set too cold and dry for his comfort. Like many Andorians in Starfleet, he has come to appreciate humour in other species. Most Andorians view too much laughter as frivolity, or witlessness...

A grelth (an Andorian arachnid)...

Under the previous political system on Andor (ie. a thousand years ago), Thantis would have been a First Princess of the Cheen-Thitar clan. Instead, she is Chieftain of the Regional Visionist Party of the Archipelago...

Foodwise, steamed shaysha is an edible, orangle-speckled, beetle-like, Andorian lifeform known as the "insect delicacy of the Archipelago". Other foods include a sour-grain pilaf with a nutty, citrus aroma, seared marine animals, and roasted vithi flower bulbs and sandbush seeds. Katheka is a stimulant analogous to coffee. Saf is a psychoactive chemical and aphrodisiac refined from an Andorian plant...

An axiom says, "When others are in need, I give." Visitors to the Enclave are expected to remove their clothes and put on a cloth shield, based on the ancient tradition of being stripped of possessions and goods. All aspects of the exterior world, including the body, are seen as public domain. Andorians draw their circle of intimacy within their minds. Another saying is that "Absence makes the heart forget..."

Certainly heaps more than we've ever learned about Bolians, Tellarites or Katarians. And that's just a small selection of cultural snippets.

I've left out heaps of cultural stuff that you would say is only there because of the four sexes. Above is the tiniest part from one page, all from the beginning of the DS9 Relaunch. There are Relaunch data in the TOS, TOS movie, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and Homeworld sections, where they relate to those sections specifically, or add nuance to older factoids. Also heaps in "The Old Ways" section (covering IDW's "Alien Spotlight" comic) under TNG.

Once thing that stymied previous attempts by the authors to add to Andorian culture: "TNG: Metamorphosis" tried to teach us about Andorians. Richard Arnold insisted that its Andorian character become a Thrasian instead. The newer TrekLit has, so far, chosen to ignore that "related" race - and a study of Thrasian reproduction (for an answer to the Andorian reproduction problems) - might have been useful. But then, Edit_XYZ doesn't want reproduction or gender explored any more, anyway.

Similarly, for "The Eyes of the Beholders" (also pre-Relaunch), the book's author attempted to create/develop a religion for the Andorians and the Star Trek Office was that "Paramount has developed no such culture or religion for the Andorians. Please delete all references to the Andorian culture or religion."

Had those plans gone ahead, later authors would have been free to embrace those, and add to the aspects, too.

We don't know if any of ENT's scriptwriters or showrunners were influenced by the Relaunch, but we do know that some of them were aware of the tie-ins, and that Andorians had been taken in a certain direction. But canon has never had to take its lead from the licensed tie-ins, so there's no surprise there. We do know that "Amongst the Clans" was referenced in ENT, and the "Starfleet Medical Reference Manual" had been referenced in DS9.

I think I need to ask, is there any aspect of modern TrekLit that Edit_XYZ actually likes? It feels that many threads in TrekLit become a raging battlefield of negativity. Our contributions are so wholeheartedly rejected as wrong, it makes even attempting to give a well-researched response... futile. I could spend hours typing/editing a rebuttal, but it will be rejected.

 

[Christopher]

We do know that "Amongst the Clans" was referenced in ENT, and the "Starfleet Medical Reference Manual" had been referenced in DS9.

The latter is a different situation from the former, since Doug Drexler contributed art to the Medical Reference Manual when he was a member of the fan community, and then reused some of his old work as on-set graphics once he became part of DS9's staff. So it's not so much paying homage as recycling material from his own portfolio.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The latter is a different situation from the former, since Doug Drexler contributed art to the Medical Reference Manual when he was a member of the fan community, and then reused some of his old work as on-set graphics once he became part of DS9's staff. So it's not so much paying homage as recycling material from his own portfolio.

But... it's a great example of how things can get canonized, even decades after the fact. (Ditto Franz Joseph ship names and registry numbers in audio loops, and deck plans, in TMP.)

The Reeves-Stevens perhaps also brought an openness about ST tie-ins to ENT. I think a fifth season of ENT might have been fun.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The 4 genders were not established then (or at any other time in canon).

The novel duology "DS9: Avatar", which kicked off the non canonical four-sex Andorian paradigm, was launched in May 2001, the same month the series "Enterprise" began production. "The Andorian Incident" episode filmed about eight weeks later, and aired in October 2001.

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

As I said - the scenarists never had any intention of establishing 4 andorian genders on-screen.

But they never excluded the possibility that there could be. The inclusion of elements of Andorian culture from some non-canon publications--the ushaan from the RPG books, say--by no means precludes the possibility that, had there been a fifth season, elements from other non-canon publications could have been incorporated.

(Another commentator notes that Treklit did include the idea of accepted intimate relationships between two individuals of different genders before Enterprise showed its relationship. I think that's fortuitous planning.)

In the absence of any evidence excluding the four-gender paradigm written for the Andorians, and--as Therin of Andor suggests--some evidence allowing for the possibility, what's the harm?

 

[Therin of Andor]

(Another commentator notes that Treklit did include the idea of accepted intimate relationships between two individuals of different genders before Enterprise showed its relationship. I think that's fortuitous planning.)

There's also the human/Andorian relationship suggested in DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice". Lisa Cusak starts to tell Sisko about the time she was seeing an Andorian civilian with the Agricultural Ministry, who kept pointing his antennae at her when she walked past. Again, nothing that precludes Andorian marriages in groups of four.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

A relationship doesn't always have to lead to marriage. Whilst sex between humans and other species won't always involve the same "parts", I'm sure that both (or more) partners could do more than enough to stimulate each other to the big finish. They may not be able to conceive children but not all species will be gentically compatable.

Nothing I've seen on Trek precludes the possibility that the Andorians are a four-sexed species, and until it is actually spelled out in canon then there will never be agreement on this point.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Star Trek is fiction. I know some feel an urge to rationalize everything, but I don't.

We're talking about bright blue aliens that are basically humans with silly antennae. Total fantasy. Thus, giving them four genders is fine too.


That said, I found the way Shran was retconned into a deviant among the 4-gendered Andorians in "Kobayashi Maru" to be awkward. I think it was more how it was handled in the book than the idea itself.

 

[Therin of Andor]

retconned into a deviant?

Huh?

Surely not that different to Shar's zhavey turning up on DS9 with Shar's three bondmates in tow, attempting to make him accept his civic duty.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Nothing I've seen on Trek precludes the possibility that the Andorians are a four-sexed species, and until it is actually spelled out in canon then there will never be agreement on this point.

We heard that the first time. Nobody's argued that point. They have debated whether four genders is plausible at all, but nobody's ever said canon precludes a four-gender paradigm. So repeatedly saying "We're never gonna agree on this until canon settles it" kinda misses the point of the discussion.

 

[Therin of Andor]

So repeatedly saying "We're never gonna agree on this until canon settles it" kinda misses the point of the discussion.

It was the Star Trek Office's insistence that the tie-ins not extrapolate too far from any canonical factoid that gave many of the tie-ins of 1989-92ish such a bland, cookie-cutter feel.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Nothing I've seen on Trek precludes the possibility that the Andorians are a four-sexed species, and until it is actually spelled out in canon then there will never be agreement on this point.

We heard that the first time. Nobody's argued that point. They have debated whether four genders is plausible at all, but nobody's ever said canon precludes a four-gender paradigm. So repeatedly saying "We're never gonna agree on this until canon settles it" kinda misses the point of the discussion.

There are plausible reasons for multiple genders, based on analogies with known Earthly creatures marked by multiple gender-like categories. It may be unlikely, but Star Trek has depicted life forms far more alien than four-gendered humanoid species of the sort described: shapeshifters, say, or energy creatures. Dying species, too, are common enough in Trek generally.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The novel duology "DS9: Avatar", which kicked off the non canonical four-sex Andorian paradigm, was launched in May 2001, the same month the series "Enterprise" began production. "The Andorian Incident" episode filmed about eight weeks later, and aired in October 2001.

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

As I said - the scenarists never had any intention of establishing 4 andorian genders on-screen.

But they never excluded the possibility that there could be.[...]In the absence of any evidence excluding the four-gender paradigm written for the Andorians, and--as Therin of Andor suggests--some evidence allowing for the possibility, what's the harm?

They never excluded the possibility that trek humans are actually shapeshifters whose original form is pink-haired poneys and who are bent on conquering the galaxy through spreading happy thoughts, their endgame being the sudden and senseless extermination of their newly conquered galaxy.
Do you think that's a viable possibility, rfmcdpei? Just because it was never directly spelled out that humans are not pink-haired poneys?

Likewise, the andorians were clearly intended to have 2 genders in canon - a 2 gender relation was even presented in Ent S4.
Yet, you obviously think this is not the case because the scenarists used 'show, don't tell' and didn't directly spell out that andorians have 2 genders.

Trek lit was forced to use a rather convoluted explanation to reconcile what was established in canon with 4 genders.

Convoluted explanations make for bad literature.
And rehashing the same old theme every time andorians have screen - book - time makes them uninteresting - which is where the harm is.

Nothing I've seen on Trek precludes the possibility that the Andorians are a four-sexed species, and until it is actually spelled out in canon then there will never be agreement on this point.

We heard that the first time. Nobody's argued that point. They have debated whether four genders is plausible at all, but nobody's ever said canon precludes a four-gender paradigm. So repeatedly saying "We're never gonna agree on this until canon settles it" kinda misses the point of the discussion.

There are plausible reasons for multiple genders, based on analogies with known Earthly creatures marked by multiple gender-like categories. It may be unlikely, but Star Trek has depicted life forms far more alien than four-gendered humanoid species of the sort described: shapeshifters, say, or energy creatures. Dying species, too, are common enough in Trek generally.

4 sexes - evolutionary speaking, it's a suicide 'strategy':
Radiation protection: There are FAR better ways for DNA protection against radiation - many of them used by bacteria, some of which can survive incredibly high levels of radiation.
Genetic diversity: 2 sexes are more than enough for this; nr. 3 - that's a REALLY steep slope of diminishing returns, which continues with nr. 4. Observe how no species on Earth felt the evolutionary 'need' to go beyond 2 sexes which contribute to reproduction (despite ample time to do so).


O, and 2 individuals agreeing to form a pair and have offspring is FAR likelier than 4 separate individuals.
The probability decreases exponentially - as per statistics - with any additional individual in the bond, (all other factors - individuality, separate personalities, etc - being equal).

So, unless andorians are genetically programed to the extent of being meat puppets:
In order to have a stable population with a 4 bond, the 4 individuals would need to have ~48 children (all of whom must live). The problem with this is, you need resources to raise ALL these children - which, evolutionary speaking, condemns these 48 children to starvation more often than not.


My point?
Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

Which is fine - trek is a largely fantasy setting - as long as one is aware of such concepts being scientifically unsupported fantasy and treats them accordingly.
But when one treats 4 genders as a viable (from a real world perspective) evolutionary development - .

 

[Mr. Domino]

Observe how no species on Earth felt the evolutionary 'need' to go beyond 2 sexes which contribute to reproduction (despite ample time to do so).

There's no species on Earth that functions like this fictional alien species, ergo this fictional Alien species is completely ludicrous and a result of bad writing.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Yes - at some time after that, in Ent S4, we had a romantic relationship between Shan&girlfriend - aka 2 genders - with no implication of it being incomplete or abnormal.

As I said - the scenarists never had any intention of establishing 4 andorian genders on-screen.

But they never excluded the possibility that there could be.[...]In the absence of any evidence excluding the four-gender paradigm written for the Andorians, and--as Therin of Andor suggests--some evidence allowing for the possibility, what's the harm?

They never excluded the possibility that trek humans are actually shapeshifters whose original form is pink-haired poneys and who are bent on conquering the galaxy through spreading happy thoughts, their endgame being the sudden and senseless extermination of their newly conquered galaxy.
Do you think that's a viable possibility, rfmcdpei? Just because it was never directly spelled out that humans are not pink-haired poneys?

You're a My Little Pony fan? I don't blame you: clean animation and good writing make for an enjoyable show. :-)

Yet, you obviously think this is not the case because the scenarists used 'show, don't tell' and didn't directly spell out that andorians have 2 genders.

I think it may not be the case; or, I think it creates an interesting idea. Is the Andorian four-gender paradigm any worse for being complex and non-canon than, say, the Rihannsu language, or the complexities of Bajoran religion presented in the DS9 relaunch, or the detail given to the Tzenkethi of late?

We heard that the first time. Nobody's argued that point. They have debated whether four genders is plausible at all, but nobody's ever said canon precludes a four-gender paradigm. So repeatedly saying "We're never gonna agree on this until canon settles it" kinda misses the point of the discussion.

There are plausible reasons for multiple genders, based on analogies with known Earthly creatures marked by multiple gender-like categories. It may be unlikely, but Star Trek has depicted life forms far more alien than four-gendered humanoid species of the sort described: shapeshifters, say, or energy creatures. Dying species, too, are common enough in Trek generally.

4 sexes - evolutionary speaking, it's a suicide 'strategy':

Why, necessarily? It makes things more complicated, but to that degree?

Radiation protection: There are FAR better ways for DNA protection against radiation - many of them used by bacteria, some of which can survive incredibly high levels of radiation.

Would the defenses of bacteria like Deinococcur radiodurans be scalable up to the level of a complex multicellular organism?

Also: does the success of Deinococcus' approach exclude others?http://blog.mycology.cornell.edu/?p=1060

Genetic diversity: 2 sexes are more than enough for this; nr. 3 - that's a REALLY steep slope of diminishing returns, which continues with nr. 4. Observe how no species on Earth felt the evolutionary 'need' to go beyond 2 sexes which contribute to reproduction (despite ample time to do so).

The multipolar mating systems of Terran fungi are worth noting in this context.

http://blog.mycology.cornell.edu/?p=1060

It's also worth noting that Andor: Paradigm acknowledged the relative unlikeliness of the scenario arising in nature, and the near-total lack of other species on the Andorian homeworld making use of the four-gender paradigm and the possibility that the Andorians might not be native to their homeworld. If this isn't the case and the Andorians are in fact immigrants--maybe even an ancient civilization's science project--then questions about the four-gender paradigm's unlikely natural evolution go out the window.

So, unless andorians are genetically programed to the extent of being meat puppets:
In order to have a stable population with a 4 bond, the 4 individuals would need to have ~48 children (all of whom must live). The problem with this is, you need resources to raise ALL these children - which, evolutionary speaking, condemns these 48 children to starvation more often than not.

Andorian sociology and economics would be interesting and complex, but IMHO not more inherently problematic than Vulcan's evolving a high-tech civilization on the surface of a desert planet, or Qo'Nos supporting a high-tech civilization despite exceptionally high levels of civil strife.

Shapeshifters and energy beings - from a real science perspective, they're jibberish.
4 genders is rather close to the same category.

But I haven't seen you here criticizing Trek lit for covering Odo and the Q here. What gives?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Observe how no species on Earth felt the evolutionary 'need' to go beyond 2 sexes which contribute to reproduction (despite ample time to do so).

There's no species on Earth that functions like this fictional alien species, ergo this fictional Alien species is completely ludicrous and a result of bad writing.

Not quite. Biological evolution is not a species, Domino.
That would be - this alien species contradicts biological evolution and its principles; hence, it's completely scientifically ludicrous.


And what's bad writing is not the andorian species - fantasy species are common throughout star trek. It's rehashing a single motive again and again with it.
In the context of this thread, what's amusing is the insistence of posters in ascribing scientific plausibility to something that has none (which even a cursory inspection reveals) - the 4 genders.