Could the Dominion War have been averted?

[BennyRussel]

Without the wormhole, it's hard to see the Dominion as threat, if they take a fleet of ships here on a 70 year journey they still have no backup and no allies and no supplies...

That would be a 70-year journey based upon the known technology of the time. Science progresses constantly, technology advances. Pre-Wright Brothers and flight, a trip from Toronto to mainland China would have been a long, dangerous, expensive trip over water and land. But less than 10 year later, all of that changed.

FTL travel could be improved and allow the Dominion to get to the AQ a lot faster than 70 years. Also, don't forget gateway technology since there was a partially-functioning gateway found in the DQ, there could have been others. And the ability of the Caretaker's species (sorry I do not know the name) to transport ships over vast distances.

The Dominion would have come to the AQ eventually and they would have attempted to conquer the AQ. With or without the wormhole's existence.

 

[Jono]

Without the wormhole, it's hard to see the Dominion as threat, if they take a fleet of ships here on a 70 year journey they still have no backup and no allies and no supplies. The key to the war was Cardassia, if the Klingons did not go to war with Cardassia they would not of been desperate enough to join with the Dominion.

Assuming that there were no Changelings in the new civilian government or military leadership like the Klingons suspected.

Even if there weren't there is still that egomaniac Dukat and regardless of the Klingons he still gets disgraced and loses his power and influence. His talk about restoring Cardassia when he launched his coup is mostly hot air and all he was doing was looking out for himself. All that would change is he'll probably state he is restoring the rightful government, Central Command.

Whats the problem with my solution of mining the wormhole straightaway? The Dominion is contained, no need for a war, and the Federation has 70 years to get more technically advanced. And the Federation can deactivate parts of the minefield to sneak into the Gamma Quadrant at any time. (Like the Iris on Stargate) Its the simple,obvious solution for heavens sake.

Given the critical component to the minefield was its ability to cloak it's possible that when they first encountered the Dominion they have the expertise in cloaking tech (which is probably unlikely) to build...plus Rom wasn't into engineering and the minefield was a baby of his "genius" so its also possible that at the time a minefield was deemed to be an ineffective defence.

Anyway, a minefield might discourage a fleet from charging through it does nothing to prevent the Dominion from sneaking spies over. Changelings still get through, there is still chaos and as Changeling Bashir showed when I made it impossible to collapse the wormhole all it takes is one to screw with the minefield and the Dominion comes through anyway.

Despite the Dominion's threat they never actively tried to stop the Federation from using the wormhole or even seemed to fortify really close to it would send mixed messages. Sure they have fancy weapons that can cut through Fed shields but their threats could have been seen as grandstanding, remember unlike us now the Feds have little idea of what the Dominion is capable of or what level of threat they actually pose.

 

[blackzoid]

Without the wormhole, it's hard to see the Dominion as threat, if they take a fleet of ships here on a 70 year journey they still have no backup and no allies and no supplies...

That would be a 70-year journey based upon the known technology of the time. Science progresses constantly, technology advances. Pre-Wright Brothers and flight, a trip from Toronto to mainland China would have been a long, dangerous, expensive trip over water and land. But less than 10 year later, all of that changed.

FTL travel could be improved and allow the Dominion to get to the AQ a lot faster than 70 years. Also, don't forget gateway technology since there was a partially-functioning gateway found in the DQ, there could have been others. And the ability of the Caretaker's species (sorry I do not know the name) to transport ships over vast distances.

The Dominion would have come to the AQ eventually and they would have attempted to conquer the AQ. With or without the wormhole's existence.

And if they get assimilated by the Borg in the meantime, or face another more powerful enemy on the way to the Alpha Quadrant?

 

[blackzoid]

Given the critical component to the minefield was its ability to cloak it's possible that when they first encountered the Dominion they have the expertise in cloaking tech (which is probably unlikely) to build...plus Rom wasn't into engineering and the minefield was a baby of his "genius" so its also possible that at the time a minefield was deemed to be an ineffective defence.

Every time the wormhole opens a fleet of ships start firing. Same effect as the minefield. Given the radius of the wormhole not all the Dominion fleet can come through at the same time. Surround the wormhole entrance with ships and defence installations and the entrance of the wormhole will get clogged with Dominion wreckage soon enough making it even harder for the Dominion.

Anyway, a minefield might discourage a fleet from charging through it does nothing to prevent the Dominion from sneaking spies over. Changelings still get through, there is still chaos and as Changeling Bashir showed when I made it impossible to collapse the wormhole all it takes is one to screw with the minefield and the Dominion comes through anyway.

If every single time the wormhole opens, the minefield is activated and the station placed on alert, how will any Changelings ever infiltrate the Federation? If the Changelings come through via space, they are blown up. If they should come through on a ship, every ship that arrives is scanned for them. Its not perfect but its a hell of a lot better than what the Federation actually did. Seriously its not that hard for the Federation to do this. There is only ONE entrance into their space. Sorround it with scanners and automatic turrets and the Changelings are contained. Just some common sense security is needed. Like Stargate SG1 do every time an off-world wormhole is activated.

 

[Jono]

Anyway, a minefield might discourage a fleet from charging through it does nothing to prevent the Dominion from sneaking spies over. Changelings still get through, there is still chaos and as Changeling Bashir showed when I made it impossible to collapse the wormhole all it takes is one to screw with the minefield and the Dominion comes through anyway.

If every single time the wormhole opens, the minefield is activated and the station placed on alert, how will any Changelings ever infiltrate the Federation? If the Changelings come through via space, they are blown up. If they should come through on a ship, every ship that arrives is scanned for them. Its not perfect but its a hell of a lot better than what the Federation actually did. Seriously its not that hard for the Federation to do this. There is only ONE entrance into their space. Sorround it with scanners and automatic turrets and the Changelings are contained. Just some common sense security is needed. Like Stargate SG1 do every time an off-world wormhole is activated.

In scanning for Changelings how many times did we seen any method of detecting a Changeling actually detect a Changeling who wasn't Odo? Zero. Sorry, once and that was when Leyton falsified the result to frame Sisko.

Also given they can be things like a rock, fire, cloud and mist one could just hitch on a ship and once it's through the minefield "jump ship" and float away unnoticed if they are concerned about detection.

 

[blackzoid]

In scanning for Changelings how many times did we seen any method of detecting a Changeling actually detect a Changeling who wasn't Odo? Zero. Sorry, once and that was when Leyton falsified the result to frame Sisko.

Also given they can be things like a rock, fire, cloud and mist one could just hitch on a ship and once it's through the minefield "jump ship" and float away unnoticed if they are concerned about detection.

Simple solution than. NO ship is allowed enter the wormhole from the Alpha Quadrant side to explore the Gamma Quadrant. Any ship that comes through from the Gamma Quadrant is thus considered an enemy. A warning buoy could be put on the Gamma Quadrant side, if the ship ignores it, it is fired upon and destroyed when it gets to the Alpha Quadrant. And the entire area around the ship is pummeled with weapons fire to be sure. Problem solved.

 

[Jono]

Can the Federation dictate wormhole travel from the Alpha end? Didn't Kira claim it for Bajor or something. Wouldn't they need to convince the Bajorans to give up their most important asset? If they do, I doubt the Bajorans would agree. They would risk expulsion from DS9 and end any hopes of bringing Bajor into the Federation.

If they did manage it they would just need to hope no one like the Skreea find the wormhole or that someone does a Kirk and ignore the warning buoy and come through anyway. They would also need to abandon any ship already in the GQ at the time and given that not only Federation ships travelled through other governments might not be too happy about it, well maybe not the Romulans. They probably would still try to collapse the wormhole just to be on the safe side.

The negative (apart from diplomatic difficulties) is that the Federation loses any chance to gather intel on the threat. Plus when/if the Dominion invade their shields are unlikely to work and as someone mentioned the Iconian gateway would be a problem as well.

Of course, there is the possibility that Changelings had already come through the wormhole long before the Dominion decided to reveal itself to the Federation. Eris's escape suggests that the Dominion might have had agents in the AQ already, though she might have just committed suicide.

 

[blackzoid]

Can the Federation dictate wormhole travel from the Alpha end? Didn't Kira claim it for Bajor or something. Wouldn't they need to convince the Bajorans to give up their most important asset? If they do, I doubt the Bajorans would agree. They would risk expulsion from DS9 and end any hopes of bringing Bajor into the Federation.

So? The entire AQ security versus the economic needs of one planet. The Bajorans have had 2 years of economic growth through the wormhole, thats over now. Plus the Bajorans lost people on their New Bajor colony. They should understand the threat represented by the Dominion. Its better that the Federation should mine the entrance than just collapse the wormhole which cuts off Bajor from their Gods.

If they did manage it they would just need to hope no one like the Skreea find the wormhole or that someone does a Kirk and ignore the warning buoy and come through anyway. They would also need to abandon any ship already in the GQ at the time and given that not only Federation ships travelled through other governments might not be too happy about it, well maybe not the Romulans. They probably would still try to collapse the wormhole just to be on the safe side.

So? Its not a perfect solution, but the Dominion is a threat. The warning buoy is not an idle threat. Plus the station can communicate through the wormhole anyway warning them off.
As for ships already in the GQ, they should have been ordered back after the events of "The Jem'Hadar." Those would have to be fully scanned on arrival. Its not perfect but those are the LAST ships in the GQ that have potential Changeling infiltration.

The negative (apart from diplomatic difficulties) is that the Federation loses any chance to gather intel on the threat. Plus when/if the Dominion invade their shields are unlikely to work and as someone mentioned the Iconian gateway would be a problem as well.

Or the Borg gets the Dominion in the meantime. We can't be certain of the future.

Of course, there is the possibility that Changelings had already come through the wormhole long before the Dominion decided to reveal itself to the Federation. Eris's escape suggests that the Dominion might have had agents in the AQ already, though she might have just committed suicide.

Yes, thats a risk. But its better to stop any more Changelings from getting into the AQ straight away. It better to at least try.

 

[Jono]

Can the Federation dictate wormhole travel from the Alpha end? Didn't Kira claim it for Bajor or something. Wouldn't they need to convince the Bajorans to give up their most important asset? If they do, I doubt the Bajorans would agree. They would risk expulsion from DS9 and end any hopes of bringing Bajor into the Federation.

So? The entire AQ security versus the economic needs of one planet. The Bajorans have had 2 years of economic growth through the wormhole, thats over now. Plus the Bajorans lost people on their New Bajor colony. They should understand the threat represented by the Dominion. Its better that the Federation should mine the entrance than just collapse the wormhole which cuts off Bajor from their Gods.

You're assigning certainties to a situation that is biased based on your relationship to the information as the viewer. You know that the Dominion will go to war with the AQ. You know that they are introduced as the next big bad guys. The Federation doesn't know this.

To the Federation the Dominion would appear as a hostile power, but the threat they pose wouldn't be clear. They can destroy distant and lone colony worlds, but the Gorn could do that a century before. They know they have weapons that can penetrate Federation shields, but it isn't an automatic win weapon. However, they have no idea of the Dominion's military strength and if their threats can be backed or if the Dominion is just posturing.

If they did manage it they would just need to hope no one like the Skreea find the wormhole or that someone does a Kirk and ignore the warning buoy and come through anyway. They would also need to abandon any ship already in the GQ at the time and given that not only Federation ships travelled through other governments might not be too happy about it, well maybe not the Romulans. They probably would still try to collapse the wormhole just to be on the safe side.

So? Its not a perfect solution, but the Dominion is a threat. The warning buoy is not an idle threat. Plus the station can communicate through the wormhole anyway warning them off.

Communication was only set up late season 3 and that system only worked by a freak accident. Though if they stuck by the timing of the normal universe they possibly would "solve" the wormhole problem. Dax suggested if the comet just flew into the wormhole it would cause it to collapse and if no one is allowed on the other side, no one can return to report about it and it would have possibly collapsed the wormhole.

It does make me wonder, the Prophets control the wormhole to some degree. They can shut it off and on at will and given they might have created the wormhole whether collapsing it without killing the Prophet would actually work? Surely if they created it once they could do it again. Maybe Sisko should have asked if they could close one end, that would have been useful in terms of cutting the Dominion off, but not the Bajorans.

 

[blackzoid]

You're assigning certainties to a situation that is biased based on your relationship to the information as the viewer. You know that the Dominion will go to war with the AQ. You know that they are introduced as the next big bad guys. The Federation doesn't know this.

To the Federation the Dominion would appear as a hostile power, but the threat they pose wouldn't be clear. They can destroy distant and lone colony worlds, but the Gorn could do that a century before. They know they have weapons that can penetrate Federation shields, but it isn't an automatic win weapon. However, they have no idea of the Dominion's military strength and if their threats can be backed or if the Dominion is just posturing.

Thats a fair point, but the Federation still didn't make the logical leap to mine the wormhole even by early season 5, which while maybe being too late to prevent additional Changeling manipulation, should have been plenty of time to understand that the Dominion is not not like the threats of before and would not stop at individual colony worlds and may send fleets through. Some way to prevent Changeling manipulation of any potential pre-empitive minefield could have been attempted (access codes and such)

Communication was only set up late season 3 and that system only worked by a freak accident. Though if they stuck by the timing of the normal universe they possibly would "solve" the wormhole problem. Dax suggested if the comet just flew into the wormhole it would cause it to collapse and if no one is allowed on the other side, no one can return to report about it and it would have possibly collapsed the wormhole.

Multiple warning buoys on the other side would have to suffice than. Its not perfect and innocent people would die if they fly through the wormhole without understanding the warning, but you can't have everything. Unless the warning is set up after that episode of course which allows live communication through the wormhole.

It does make me wonder, the Prophets control the wormhole to some degree. They can shut it off and on at will and given they might have created the wormhole whether collapsing it without killing the Prophet would actually work? Surely if they created it once they could do it again. Maybe Sisko should have asked if they could close one end, that would have been useful in terms of cutting the Dominion off, but not the Bajorans.

I don't really want to get into the whole Prophets thing. Ya, Sisko should have really said to stop all Dominion ships from even getting through. But I didn't like the mixing of the Prophets with the Dominion storyline, too Deus Ex Machina a solution to ask them to handle it. (I didn't like their use in Sacrifice of Angels)

 

[Uxi]

I like to consider where... or more accurately when that Dominion reinforcement fleet went to.

 

[Tom]

I like to consider where... or more accurately when that Dominion reinforcement fleet went to.

That would have been been a great basis for a DS9 movie. The fleet (200 ships) show up 5 years later, They head to Cardassia to find them rebuilding after the war. They learn the the Dominion surrendered and are irate and head to Earth to try and free the female shape shifter etc..

Kira goes to the Gamma quadrent to try to find ODO to bring him back etc..

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I like to consider where... or more accurately when that Dominion reinforcement fleet went to.

That would have been been a great basis for a DS9 movie. The fleet (200 ships) show up 5 years later, They head to Cardassia to find them rebuilding after the war. They learn the the Dominion surrendered and are irate and head to Earth to try and free the female shape shifter etc..

Kira goes to the Gamma quadrent to try to find ODO to bring him back etc..

Star Trek Online has been there and done that.