I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

[Timo]

Quite possibly so. On the other hand, the Xepolites operated warp transports capable of very high speeds even in Federation terms, making one wonder if they weren't the technologically more advanced party in the arrangement.

FWIW, their transport from the Circle trilogy was the same model as the triangular ship seen visiting DS9 twice in a dignitary-carrying role (first carrying the Wadi, then Trills) and once seen operated by a Bajoran rogue - possibly a piece of hardware the Cardassians got from the Xepolites and then abandoned in some quantity to Bajorans in the chaotic withdrawal. The ship also sports the trademark ringlike dorsal/ventral protrusions also found in the Hideki small fighting vessels of the Union. And intriguingly, it seems to be flanked by two hexagonal "nacelles" of the same type that is installed singly atop the other triangular Cardassian/Bajoran transport, the one introduced back in "Ensign Ro" and frequently seen visiting DS9.

I could easily see the Cardassians subjugating more primitive civilizations en masse to gain access to resources, while simultaneously sniveling in front of interstellar providers of quality hardware, some of which could be cultures living relatively close by.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightdiamond]

I've always suspected Cardassia deliberately manipulated its neighbors into client states similar to the way the Soviets did with their neighbors. At least in my own works, some of those worlds were even made into spacefaring civilizations by the Cardassians, to force their loyalty.

Timo wrote: The Feds would have needed pretty solid reasons for deciding that Bajoran unity with Cardassia wasn't voluntary, legal and according to the wishes of the decisive elements of the Bajoran society.

It seems like a lot of politics. The Fed reaction to Bajor's occupation is a similar situation that could be seen in what happened in East Timor. Some years ago, a stander-by blasted a hard question to a white house official about it, and it was obvious that it was hard to answer.

What I've read in articles are things like the Cardassians came to Bajor, gave aid, but after showing their true colors, they were asked to leave.

They didn't, annexed Bajor, and the occupation began. Or was it stated in an episode? The show left that part ambiguous.

I know they didn't invade Bajor, but the part about being asked to leave makes a major difference between collaboration and forced colonization.

It's funny how it was referred to as "the occupation", but yet couldn't be acknowledged as one.

 

[DAYoung]

In the first episode of Deep Space Nine, Kira explained that religion was the only thing holding Bajor together.

Sounds a little worrying to me.

They'd just been released from 50 years of Cardassian Occupation/Abuse, seems perfectly normal to me, that one specific thing, especially Religious Faith is all that's holding them together. Sure you have to watch out for whacky Fundamentalism, but, nothing bizarre/uncommon about the fact, IMHO, and probably the main reason the Federation wanted them to find their own identity before joining, not because Religion is necessarily bad, but, because it was all they had and needed to find themselves again.

Sorry, I didn't see this reply earlier.

Yes, I agree: it makes sense. It's just worrying.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Why is it worrying?

 

[DAYoung]

Why is it worrying?

There are many reasons for fellowship - common struggle, grief, or simply the familiarity of daily intimacy, to name a handful. Faith worries me because it is intense, but prefaced on nothing but belief. Shallow grounds for a robust community, to my mind.

Of course, the Bajoran characters are given something that human believers lack: scientifically-verified aliens as their prophets.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There is nothing dull about Bajorans, their politics, their nepotism, their religious power struggles. They just do it all very politely.



Dull? No.

 

[Sci]

One thing to consider about the difference between Cardassia invading Bajor and Qo'noS invading Cardassia is this:

Technically, the Cardassians never invaded Bajor. Instead, they were "invited" by the Bajoran government. Now, this government was essentially a Cardassian puppet government

Here's something I've noticed. In trek literature and articles, it is said the Bajorans invited Cardassia . However, I can't find a source from the show itself that says the Bajorans agreed to be absorbed into Cardassia.

Well, first off, what do you mean by "the Bajorans?"

The DSN episode "The Collaborator" (2.24) establishes definitively that during the Occupation, there was a Bajoran government that at least nominally consented to the Cardassian presence on Bajor and to their activities. That episode also makes it clear that this government lacked a democratic mandate from the Bajoran people -- that it was a collaborationist, traitor government, akin to the Vichy regime that ruled France when it was under Nazi occupation.

If we want to expand our pallet to Trek Literature, the novel Terok Nor: Day of the Vipers by James Swallow depicts how the Occupation began.

Spoiler: Day of the Vipers

The Cardassians first arrive on Bajor in 2318, returning a destroyed Bajoran ship. The Central Command has had members of a persecuted Cardassian religious sect that is dying, known as the Oralian Way, included in the delegation, in order to appeal to the Bajorans. Through promises of wealth and trade, pro-Cardassian politicians gradually take control of the Bajoran government. An Oralian settlement is allowed on Bajor at the urging of the Bajoran Church, because of the persecution the Way faces at the hands of the Central Command back home.

Over the next ten years, the pieces are put into place. The Central Command fakes a Tzenkethi attack on Bajor and places ships in the Bajoran system to "defend" Bajor, with the Bajoran government's approval. The Cardassians secretly move military equipment and weapons into the Oralian camps. In 2328, having bribed their way into near total control of the Bajoran government, the Cardassians then use the tensions that have been building between the Bajoran populace and the Cardassians already stationed on Bajor and the Oralians to spark riots, and to secretly assassinate the First Minister; Cardassian troops move in to "restore order" and a Cardassian puppet is installed as First Minister, and the Occupation begins.

In other words -- it was a government full of Quislings, but a government nonetheless. And it wanted the Cardassians there, even if 90% of the Bajoran people did not and regarded themselves as occupied by a foreign power.

But is it really known whether they specifically agreed to become part of Cardassia? That makes all the difference.

I'm sure the occupationist government did, in the same sense that the Quisling and Vichy governments "agreed" to allow Nazi forces onto their territory. That doesn't mean that those decisions were regarded as legitimate by the actual Bajoran populace (or the actual French and Norwegian populaces); it means that the nominal government made that decision, and the Federation was constrained by the its non-interventionist foreign policy to respect that government's wishes.

 

[Timo]

That episode also makes it clear that this government lacked a democratic mandate from the Bajoran people

It should be noted that this might be the usual case with Bajoran governments. Moreover, we only know that it lacked the mandate of those Bajorans who came out victorious from the occupation. This might have been a relatively minor faction in the greater scheme of things, as "resistance caste" wasn't prominent in the pre-occupation society... The aggressive and for that reason victorious minority would of course demonize the collaborating government, even if the resistance did far more harm to Bajor and Bajoran independence than the collaboration and was justly loathed by the majority.

it wanted the Cardassians there

It still appears that there is no canonical mention of such a thing, even though the novels take this tack.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightdiamond]

Well, first off, what do you mean by "the Bajorans?"

The DSN episode "The Collaborator" (2.24) establishes definitively that during the Occupation, there was a Bajoran government that at least nominally consented to the Cardassian presence on Bajor and to their activities. That episode also makes it clear that this government lacked a democratic mandate from the Bajoran people --that it was a collaborationist, traitor government, akin to the Vichy regime that ruled France when it was under Nazi occupation.

Good catch. Good arguement.


But one thing makes all the difference, yet again:

Whether this Bajoran government existed before the occupation, or was created during the occupation.

If it existed before, it can be argued that it invited the Cardassians to Bajor.

But-- if it was created during the occupation, then that would support the idea of forced colonization on the part of Cardassia, and then setting up a puppet government of cronies to make it look legitimate.

It's all about the timing. Historically this has happened as well.

Another thing that makes it look that way, is that the Bajorans were afraid the Cardassians would come back and re-occupy Bajor--especially after the wormhole was discovered.

If they were originally invited by the Bajoran government-why would they now "force" their way back into their system, when it widely and obviously known the Bajorans didn't want them back?

Unless to suggest that Cardassians typically will invade when it wants something, and the target is weak enough.

It still appears that there is no canonical mention of such a thing, even though the novels take this tack.
Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, it's hard to track down anything that says with certainty that the Bajorans or Bajoran government agreed to be colony of Cardassia. Or even asked them to leave.

 

[Timo]

We might even speculate that Bajor was such an isolationist world prior to the Cardassian arrival that they had no formal mechanism for dealing with such things - no foreign policy, no Minister of Foreign Affairs, no rules on what to do when the Prophets aren't chiming in. Perhaps there was nobody formally entitled to invite anybody in, and various elements of the byzantine government took various stances for or against the Cardassians; those who said yes survived, while those who said no were liquidated or forced to a vow of silence in their monasteries.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Well, first off, what do you mean by "the Bajorans?"

The DSN episode "The Collaborator" (2.24) establishes definitively that during the Occupation, there was a Bajoran government that at least nominally consented to the Cardassian presence on Bajor and to their activities. That episode also makes it clear that this government lacked a democratic mandate from the Bajoran people --that it was a collaborationist, traitor government, akin to the Vichy regime that ruled France when it was under Nazi occupation.

Good catch. Good arguement.

But one thing makes all the difference, yet again:

Whether this Bajoran government existed before the occupation, or was created during the occupation.

This remains canonically unestablished.

However, Day of the Vipers depicts it as having existed before. Like the Vichy Regime -- which was actually the continuation of the government of the French Republic that existed before the war; the after French forces were defeated and the Prime Minister who had favored continuing the war forced to resign, Pétain's goons were able to bribe or intimidate enough members of the French Parliament for the Parliament to vote him dictatorial powers. From there, the Vichy regime under Pétain actively began collaborating with the Nazis.

Something similar happens in Day of the Vipers. The Cardassians are able to bribe enough members of the Chamber of Ministers early on to gain significant power and influence on Bajor. From there, their supporters in the Chamber begin marginalizing anti-Cardassian voices. Eventually, the Cardassians and their allies in the Chamber are able to intimidate any remaining anti-Cardassian voices into silence. The riots which break out when the Cardassians decide to openly move military forces into Bajoran cities gives them the final opportunity to covertly assassinate the First Minister (blaming it on anti-Cardassian terrorists), leaving the Bajoran government firmly under Cardassian control and a state of disorientation and terror within the populace.

So, yeah, the Bajoran government had existed prior to the occupation; it invited them in. And then by the time the occupation began, its members were all under the Cardassians' control, all through informal means. But it was still legally the same institution as had existed before the occupation. The Cardassians didn't create a puppet government; they transformed a legitimate government into their puppets.

Another thing that makes it look that way, is that the Bajorans were afraid the Cardassians would come back and re-occupy Bajor--especially after the wormhole was discovered.

If they were originally invited by the Bajoran government-why would they now "force" their way back into their system, when it widely and obviously known the Bajorans didn't want them back?

That doesn't follow. The occupation government had been overthrown and a new Provisional Government established; if the Cardassians were to return, there would be no pretense of it having been at the request of the Provisional Government. Whatever pretenses they used in 2328 would be utterly irrelevant to their actions forty years later.

Though, if the Cardassians were to try to maintain some pretense, they'd probably just say, "Well, we chose to withdraw for our own domestic reasons -- it is, after all, ever so expensive to maintain enough forces to maintain order and civilization on planets like Bajor -- but then, the legitimate Bajoran government (which had invited us in back in 2328, you may recall) was overthrown in a violent rebellion by those rabble-rousing terrorists who'd killed so many Cardassians! Obviously we had to return to restore the legitimate government of Bajor to power. We can't allow every extremist group to overthrow legitimate governments, now can we?"

Unless to suggest that Cardassians typically will invade when it wants something, and the target is weak enough.

Well, duh.

 

[Sjaddix]

I am pretty sure no one listed to kai winn and her teachings in later seasons. It sucked to be Winn because she had to compete with Emissary. Its like the Pope competing with Christ not a fair fight.

 

[Xhiandra]

Indeed, it seems nonsensical for the Federation to want Bajor in its fold.
Why would a Federation founded on enlightened values accept a theocracy as a member?
That'd be like Iran joining the EU and retaining its oppressive system of governance: nonsense.

 

[Timo]

It wouldn't be out of the norm, really. Vulcan is already an apparent theocracy, ruled by high priestesses of the logic faith, and displaying no signs of democratic values while flaunting its archaic ways of arranged marriages and duels-to-death. And let's not forget that Ardana, with its slave system, was a UFP member as well.

Indeed, we have no evidence whatsoever that UFP members in general would share Earth's values in anything much. The UFP is not a value-based alliance unless direct evidence on such is presented. And while there's talk about Bajor flunking membership if it retains an "oppressive caste system", it may be that other kinds of caste system (or other kinds of oppression) are fine with the Feds.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sjaddix]

which begs the question what are the standards if you can get in with slavery

 

[BritishSeaPower]

I've just been rewatching DS9 and I've gotten into Season 7. One thing that's been bugging me during the whole thing is how monolithic Bajoran faith is. Now, we do lose sight of Bajor as a story setting pretty much with the beginning of Season 3 and it more or less disappears until the Winn/Dukat stuff in late Season 7, so there's a reason for it. But we're presented with the idea of a planet that has one single unifying faith. A planet that has its priests set up as a parliamentary body. At no time are we lead to believe there are any other faiths (save the Pah-Wraiths, but they're an extension of the same. Indeed, when they are seen briefly on the station in Season 7's opener, they're praying at the Bajoran Temple!) that have any level of legitimacy. To me that speaks to some level of oppression of other belief systems. If I recall from one of the early Ro episodes, she's treated like an outcast for being agnostic, which doesn't speak well of a culture being brought into confederation of multiple races, ethics, viewpoints, etc.

We do get the vaguest of hints from Bareil that there are sects, but he seemed to imply the divisions were amongst the Vedeks as opposed to differing philosophical sects amongst the populace. Now, granted, all of this may be systemic of how little we saw of Bajor. But to me, their culture seemed very closed off and dismissive of "the other." Hell Kai Winn is outright xenophobic!. It's not a culture that I would think meshes well with the Federation's ideals. Sure, a bunch of Bajorans warmed up the Federation (Kira, Li Nalas, Shakaar, Bariel, Opaka) but the ease with which Bajorans en masse shifted with a single leader's voice ("False" Emissary, Winn, Frank Langella) does not a strong impression make. ("Hey, it's a long weekend, want to briefly switch back to the D'Jarras?")

In the novels, an offshot sect is depicted and it's basically treated as abhorrent and should be stamped out. It was mentioned a few times as a stumbling block to Federation officials but even that was glossed over a bit. In a sense, I'm reminded of an anecdote I've just heard about. Harvey Pekar, the comics writer, wrote a few articles and stories over the years talking about his criticisms of the Israeli state and Judaism in the Post-WWII era. Because his views tended to be overly negative - a forthcoming, post-houmus book called "Not the Israel My Parents Promised Me" takes his struggle with the topic and tells it in comic form - he was branded a race traitor by many in Israel (and many without.)

And that's my view on Bajor. If you're not of the faith, you're not Bajoran and therefore don't belong. Which would be a problematic philosophy for the Federation to deal with. One story line that I would have liked to have seen would be what the Bajorans did when encountering other faiths. Because there is an inherent problem with a race having real "gods" who are present. There's no debate, it's just "Do your gods have a wormhole? No? Didn't think so." And a certain arrogance creeps into the Bajoran characters after the First Season which seems premised on the "We actually don't *need* faith anymore, because it's real and it's there. We have certainty on our side." There does seem to be a pattern of self correction to this depiction as it gets eerily close to the Vorta stance on the subject and even Kai Winn's rhetoric is toned down by Season 6. All of it just strikes me as odd. And that the Federation rushing to make them a member makes less sense as time goes on, really. It's strategic at first, but at no time does it ever seem like Bajor could get the Federation to leave. While the books have done this and they have their logic, I would say using the TV show for a basis, there's no way Bajor was ready for membership in just 7 years. And in fact there are so many governmental problems in the first 3 seasons it seems like they would never have been on the path to membership until at least Shakaar. Interesting subject, though.

Oh, I saw some discussing this earlier, Kira often uses Prophets and Gods interchangeably across the series. (In the first season she oddly says "God" a few times.) There's one episode where Odo wants to go to services with Kira that springs to mine where she says gods a few times to make the point about what the prophets are.

 

[Eno]

^^ Great post. This aliance is a sell out by the Federation, who simply wanted access to the wormhole. Did Bajor deserve membership? Not in my opinion. Their faith is xenophobic and primitive. Would a planet of Muslims or Baptists qualify? (just to use 2 examples) I doubt it.

 

[Sjaddix]

No doubt the Wormhole fast tracked. Plus some Fear of the Prophets and the fact they have an officer that can control the Bajoran Command Structure.

 

[T'Girl]

which begs the question what are the standards if you can get in with slavery

It would depend on what else you're bringing to the table, besides the fact you practice slavery.

If you're not of the faith, you're not Bajoran and therefore don't belong. Which would be a problematic philosophy for the Federation to deal with.

Actual, that sounds somewhat like the Vulcans. When Sybok ventured outside the Vulcan belief system into forbidden areas, he was banished from Vulcan. Vulcan is a valued member of the Federation.

Vulcans are depicted as having religious faith, perhaps possessing multiple religions, in VOY, ENT and TAS. I don't think we ever even heard a hint, that the Federation practices religious suppression.

And let's not forget that Ardana, with its slave system, was a UFP member as well.

The federation's entry requirement may be in a constant state of flux, over it's history. After Ardana was already a member, there wasn't anything the federation could do about it's system. At one point Picard said a planet had to have a single government, but how long had that particular rule been in existence?

And how long would it last?

Vulcan is already an apparent theocracy

And Ardana an apparent aristocracy. I'm not sure if Morn's people are federation members, but their planet does have a Royal family.

Indeed, we have no evidence whatsoever that UFP members in general would share Earth's values in anything much.

To the best of my memory Timo, no episode ever came right out and said it.

 

[Sjaddix]

So then sounds like the Federation has variable standards based primarily on how useful a planet or collection of planets is. The more valuable your strategic value be it economic, strategic, resources, etc. The lower standards you have. Although it does not matter what Vulcan does they are a founding member.