^ I'd like to visit Delta Kuppa Java. Must be an invigorating experience. Do you take the express(o) shuttle?
Was John Gill insane?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
The inhabitants tend to be a bit nervous and jittery. But they sure know how to party all night.
I did hear that the Klingon vessel Baris'ta visited the planet and declared "Decaf has no honor!"
Look at it this way Timo, what if the intent of the Klingons was to invade further into Federation space? Kirk did refer to Organia as being "... located on the natural invasion routes." Now when America was going to invade France, it first sent lots and lots of troops to England, why? Because it was closer. If you want to invade a Federation planet, well you can blow it to pieces from orbit, but that doesn't get you a new planet for the Empire, you need boots on the ground.
Now you can haul a ship load of troops all the way from the Empire, dump them and then return to the Empire for more. This might make for a long round trip, by the time you return with a second load of troop, the first load could be all dead.
Or you could first establish a base (or several) on Organia, flood the place with troops, then when you were ready, run back and forth between Organia and the planet to be invaded, making each trip in less time than going all the way back to the Empire.
The allies landed 156,000 troop on D-day, planets are big places, how many Klingons can fit in each starship, how many starships can the Empire employ just to carry troops?
Organia equals a staging point.
Just as Kirk promised to teach the Organians to increase their farm output, so could the Klingons, Kirk (in 'Tribbles) described them as very efficient, the extra food to be eaten by the assembling troops, grown by the Klingons new slaves.
Okay, sounds good enough - the idea of letting the troops stretch their legs may carry the concept of Organia-as-a-base.
It was certainly a priority for the Empire but not for the UFP, judging by how a fleet of ships was sent to establish the garrison, and how Starfleet only sent one defender. Since "fleets" later got involved on both sides, it may be the planet held great value for both after all. Or then both sides merely believed in the concept of the decisive naval battle, and wanted to gain local superiority that would allow them to eliminate their counterpart enemy force near this worthless rock, then move on.
If the Klingons wanted to move against the UFP stepwise, a garrison world some way into UFP territory would be a good idea. But the war seemed to proceed relatively quickly. Why offload the troops at Organia for any length of time when a surprise strike was the way to go at other fronts (say, against Kirk's ship in the teaser)? Perhaps Starfleet erroneously thought that the Klingons would move slowly - while Kor's mission to secure Organia was in fact just a sideshow and those hundreds of thousands of troops were already moving directly towards Earth aboard their hundreds of ships? Both Kirk and Kor do appear to be junior skippers, at least in retrospect, and perhaps for that reason only trusted with insignificant "colonial" theaters of operations.
...For a segue back to the John Gill issue, I wonder how the Ekosians hoped to get occupation troops to Zeon across the interplanetary gulf. A nuclear deterrent as a means of conquest I can understand. But we saw that threat deployed by means suspiciously similar to the old A-4 rocket. It's a giant leap for Ekoskind from that to troop carriers!
Timo Saloniemi
It was certainly a priority for the Empire but not for the UFP, judging by how a fleet of ships was sent to establish the garrison, and how Starfleet only sent one defender. Since "fleets" later got involved on both sides, it may be the planet held great value for both after all. Or then both sides merely believed in the concept of the decisive naval battle, and wanted to gain local superiority that would allow them to eliminate their counterpart enemy force near this worthless rock, then move on.
If the Klingons wanted to move against the UFP stepwise, a garrison world some way into UFP territory would be a good idea. But the war seemed to proceed relatively quickly. Why offload the troops at Organia for any length of time when a surprise strike was the way to go at other fronts (say, against Kirk's ship in the teaser)? Perhaps Starfleet erroneously thought that the Klingons would move slowly - while Kor's mission to secure Organia was in fact just a sideshow and those hundreds of thousands of troops were already moving directly towards Earth aboard their hundreds of ships? Both Kirk and Kor do appear to be junior skippers, at least in retrospect, and perhaps for that reason only trusted with insignificant "colonial" theaters of operations.
...For a segue back to the John Gill issue, I wonder how the Ekosians hoped to get occupation troops to Zeon across the interplanetary gulf. A nuclear deterrent as a means of conquest I can understand. But we saw that threat deployed by means suspiciously similar to the old A-4 rocket. It's a giant leap for Ekoskind from that to troop carriers!
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah but that was to sell the benefits of an alliance with the federation. The Klingons are less likely to use that and more likely to use the "do what I say or I shoot you with this disruptor" method.
That's because the federation are all "its your planet you can do whatever you want with it" while the Klingons are "We are taking your planet and shooting anyone who doesn't like it with disruptors".
Knight Templar
Commodore
Well, I don't remember if the final episode has this reference but the Ekosian woman who is secretly helping the resistance suggests to Kirk that
"with your weapons, you could destroy the space fleet".
In the James Blish adaption, Kirk says "that would mean the deaths of thousands of Ekosian spacemen"
So obviously by dialogue and implication the Ekosians did have substantial interplanetary space travel capabilities at that point.
Not so. In the opening of the episode Kirk said "We are to proceed to Organia and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent the Klingons from using it as a base. ". As war was not yet declared what would prevent the Organians from welcoming the Klingons? Is it not their planet? Can they not permit the Klingons to build a base if they like?
Also, "whatever steps are necessary" would seem to allow the use of General Order 24 if Kirk deemed it necessary. He's threatened to do so under conditions where the Federation was not at war. (A Taste of Armageddon). The only reason that the Enterprise was even in a position to be targeted is because the Federation ignore code 7-10. Apparently "it's your planet" doesn't also allow the posing of "Keep out" and "no trespassing" signs either.
Eminiar had no relations with the Federation, no John Gill to blame for messing things up. The Emenians got to where they were entirely on their own. They were not under outside control. The computers did not control their actions, they followed the results presented willingly. And yet Kirk, and by extension the Federation, took it upon themselves to totally disrupt their civilization.
Knight Templar
Commodore
I thought the episode strongly implied that had not the Eminarans tried to slaughter the entire crew of the Enterprise (and had done so 50 years earlier to another starship crew) then Kirk would have left them to their computer war.
Like it or not, in "A Taste of Armageddon", the Eminarans did fire first on the Enterprise and imprisoned the landing party.
If the Eminians had just said "Thanks, but no thanks." and let Kirk and party depart without another word that would have been the end of it. But by taking the landing party hostage and then trying to destroy the Enterprise the Eminians had taken hostile action. They had effectively involved Kirk and company, and by extension the Federation, in their conflict. And Anan admitted to them doing the same thing to the Valiant fifty years earlier. Bad move because as Kirk later said they don't just play war on a computer but make the real thing.
Knight Templar
Commodore
I'm also curious as to when Ambassador Fox early in the episode talks about IIRC "thousands of ships lost, that wouldn't have been lost if we had an alliance with Eminar VII" or something to that effect.
Now, that strongly suggests to me Eminar VII has been destroying large numbers of ships transiting that region
Now, that strongly suggests to me Eminar VII has been destroying large numbers of ships transiting that region
The incredibly stupid thing about the Federations reason for sending Fox and the Enterprise in the first place.
"KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
They are willing to start a war over their requirements for a port. They ignore the warnings to stay away, a warning that Kirk says should not be ignored for no reason whatsoever. And yet the Federation decides that the Emenians don't have the right to tell people to stay out of their system. They also know that the situation may still be unsafe:
SPOCK: We know very little about them. Their civilisation is advanced. They've had space flight for several centuries, but they've never ventured beyond their own solar system. When first contacted more than fifty years ago, Eminiar Seven was at war with its nearest neighbour.
I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happened a couple of weeks later:
Uhura - Captain, We've just received word from Starfleet. They got a brief message from Ambassador Fox shortly after we left Eminiar VII saying that negotiations had broken down. They sent a ship to investigate when they couldn't raise the Ambassador. Sir, war had broken out. Both Eminiar VII and Vendikar have been destroyed. Starfleet can find no survivors anywhere in the system.
Simply waltzing into an independent star system and completely upending a culture that has existed for hundreds of years and then expecting that everything will just turn out fine is hopelessly naive.
We may find their system barbaric and inhuman but it's their system and it's up to them to keep it, change it or alter it. Non-interference my elbow! And yet this is the same organization that is willing to let primitive civilizations die due to natural disasters (Pen Pals, Homeward). The Federation is not as benevolent as they are made out to be.
"KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
They are willing to start a war over their requirements for a port. They ignore the warnings to stay away, a warning that Kirk says should not be ignored for no reason whatsoever. And yet the Federation decides that the Emenians don't have the right to tell people to stay out of their system. They also know that the situation may still be unsafe:
SPOCK: We know very little about them. Their civilisation is advanced. They've had space flight for several centuries, but they've never ventured beyond their own solar system. When first contacted more than fifty years ago, Eminiar Seven was at war with its nearest neighbour.
I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happened a couple of weeks later:
Uhura - Captain, We've just received word from Starfleet. They got a brief message from Ambassador Fox shortly after we left Eminiar VII saying that negotiations had broken down. They sent a ship to investigate when they couldn't raise the Ambassador. Sir, war had broken out. Both Eminiar VII and Vendikar have been destroyed. Starfleet can find no survivors anywhere in the system.
Simply waltzing into an independent star system and completely upending a culture that has existed for hundreds of years and then expecting that everything will just turn out fine is hopelessly naive.
We may find their system barbaric and inhuman but it's their system and it's up to them to keep it, change it or alter it. Non-interference my elbow! And yet this is the same organization that is willing to let primitive civilizations die due to natural disasters (Pen Pals, Homeward). The Federation is not as benevolent as they are made out to be.
Knight Templar
Commodore
Thanks.
Thousands of lives then.
But again, say 2,000 people killed because the Federation did not have a treaty port at Eminar VII.
Assume about 200 people per ship that's 10 ships destroyed or lost in some way.
Again, were the Eminarans destroying them? It certainly seems like an accident prone place if not.
But, is there any indication Eminiar VII destroyed ships? Isn't it also possible, that there were emergencies on nearby outputs that could've been answered without loss of life, or at least minimal loss of life had they had that port close by, rather than having to travel from another port for an additional 2 weeks or whatever? Or maybe there's Pirates or Raiders in the neighborhood preying on Outposts in the area, that wouldn't be doing so, if The Federation had a closer port of call to respond from?
Knight Templar
Commodore
I considered that as well. Perhaps a couple of colony support vessels having emergencies could've accounted for "thousands of lives" pretty easily.
Still, it seems like if that area of space was that well traveled that the Federation would have more information about Eminar VII and Vendikar.
Remember, these were technically advanced, planet wide civilizations that had weapons capable of destroying orbiting starships AND weapons of mass destruction capable of hitting targets at interplanetary distances.
And given the constant stream of computer traffic between Eminar VII and Vendikar (necessary to fight the war) it would seem reasonable that the Federation would have a great deal of information about them
The klingons didn't seem interested in asking the local population what their thoughts about their soon to be conquest and if they were at the tech level that everyone thought they were they wouldn't even know the kligons existed.
Sure if the federation doesn't mind possibly alienating any potential allies for their war after the klingons made it know the federation destroyes civilizations that don't exceed to their demands.
Plus again the federation likely wanted to use the planet as a base for the war. Kind of hard to do if you burn it to a cinder.
Assuming he was serious and not bluffing.
It's the kind of thing that could have been cleared up with a few throwaway lines of dialog...that the systems were along a major shipping lane or something and a few ships in distress had tried to use the planet as a haven, only to never return, etc. etc. As portrayed, it seems like ships would have to park in orbit to be legitimate targets.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
If Fox was exceeding his authority he was doing it from the very beginning. Kirk was willing to let Fox disregard the code 7-10 warning so it doesn't appear that he thought Fox had yet crossed a line. We know that Kirk is more than willing to stand up to authority when he feels the cause is just. He didn't in this cae. He stated the meaning of the code 7-10 and Spock is the one that suggested going to Yellow Alert.
SPOCK: In view of code seven-ten, Captain, may I suggest
KIRK: Yes, Mister Spock. This is the Captain. Condition Yellow Alert. Phaser crews stand by. Deflector shields up. We're going in. Peacefully, I hope. But peacefully or not, we're going in.
The Federation crossed into the space of an independent power against their forcefully stated wishes. Theoretically, you could view their disregard of the 7-10 as an act of war. Just because they didn't go in shooting doesn't mean they were not invading another powers sovereign territory.
Do you really need an inhabited planet in order to have a base? What about a space station and perhaps a dock facility or two? Trying to get someone to allow you to set up a port by sending in a ship with enough power to level a planet doesn't sound like a very peaceful way of doing things. Is a Guantanamo Bay really what the Federation would want on Eminiar VII?