Prime Directive, poorly written?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The Prime Directive exists to create false drama.

 

[Gary7]

^ What's false about it?

 

[Sci]

The idea of a law created to try to prevent the Federation from fall into imperialism is a good thing.

Taking it so far that the Federation is standing by and allowing entire species to go extinct in the name of "non-interference" is horrific bullshit.

 

[Lt. LaForge]

I think the officers we see are simply using 'pre-warp' short-hand for 'pre capacity for interstellar travel'.

This must be true. I think they would interact with anyone with FTL capability as opposed to just warp drive.

 

[Anwar]

It's not FTL that's the sticking point, it's knowledge of extraterrestrial life. The Edo had no FTL capacity from what we saw, but because they knew about aliens and were okay with that the crew could go down to the planet.

Same in TOS, as long as the non-FTL aliens already knew about alien life there was no contamination problems from contact because their culture was already open to the idea of aliens.

 

[sonak]

It's not FTL that's the sticking point, it's knowledge of extraterrestrial life. The Edo had no FTL capacity from what we saw, but because they knew about aliens and were okay with that the crew could go down to the planet.

Same in TOS, as long as the non-FTL aliens already knew about alien life there was no contamination problems from contact because their culture was already open to the idea of aliens.

yeah, I think it was originally supposed to be "pre-contact" not "pre-warp." Of course, by later Trek, it was changed to "whatever creates contrived dilemmas."

The PD is correctly given as an example of a "plot tumor" on TVtropes. A minor story element in TOS that isn't regarded as that important gradually becomes practically unrecognizable in modern Trek.

 

[T'Girl]

Why write it down in letters if ya don't want it followed to the letter?

For that to work, you either have to make said law impossibly simplistic, or make it so complex that you account for every possible variable, in every possible situation.

By it's nature the prime directive just can't be made simplistic.

Spirit of a law is open to anyone's interpretation,

This is one way to make the prime directive work, you place people with (presumable) good judgement in position to decide the legitimacy of their own actions. And then you examine their decisions after they make them. If they get it wrong, you pull them from positions of authority and penalize them. If they get it right, there's a slap on the back and you tell them to keep it up.

There won't alway be a single "correct action," and in some cases damage (if any) would not be apparent for years.

In the part of my quote that you omitted, I said exactly that

One, your post was immediately above mine, so there was no need to quote it in it's entirety. Two, I was agreeing with you.

 

[7thsealord]

This is one way to make the prime directive work, you place people with (presumable) good judgement in position to decide the legitimacy of their own actions. And then you examine their decisions after they make them. If they get it wrong, you pull them from positions of authority and penalize them. If they get it right, there's a slap on the back and you tell them to keep it up.

There won't alway be a single "correct action," and in some cases damage (if any) would not be apparent for years.

Gee, sounds a lot like what seemed to be happening with Kirk & Co.

Strange, that.

 

[Methos]

we could discuss about the Prime Directive being badly written or not all day, but as far as i know, the actual Prime Directive has never appeared on screen or in literature anywhere...

is there any actual canon source for what the Prime Directive actually says or how it's worded?

As far as i can make out, there's only various bits and pieces from Captain's speeches, discussions, and the way the implement the Prime Directive, but i don't remember a single instance when the Prime Directive has been specifically quoted from the 'Starfleet manual'

M

 

[tafkats]

Memory Alpha doesn't list any text.

This is the MA summary:

The Directive stated that members of Starfleet are not to interfere in the internal affairs of another species, especially the natural development of pre-warp civilizations, either by direct intervention, or technological revelation. When studying a planet's civilization, particularly during a planetary survey, the Prime Directive makes it clear that there was to be "No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space, other worlds, or advanced civilizations." (TOS: "Bread and Circuses") Starfleet personnel are required to understand that allowing cultures to develop on their own is an important right and therefore must make any sacrifice to protect cultures from contamination, even at the cost of their own lives.

 

[Destructor]

is there any actual canon source for what the Prime Directive actually says or how it's worded?

This is the nub here- it's not 'badly written', because it's not written at all. It is, I think intentionally, quite vague.

I think the PD is more of a 'spiritual directive', if that makes any sense- it's like Picard says in Insurrection- you can violate the spirit of the law even if you aren't violating the letter of it.

It reminds me of a scene in the West Wing where one character says: "What do you know about international law?" and as the other character starts to answer they cut them off and say: "There is no such thing as international law."

Space is big, and complex. There's probably no end to moral, political and philosophical wrangling that must take place. The Prime Directive is probably a stone tablet in the lobby of Starfleet headquarters with a picture of the British flag with the caption: "Don't fuck up other planets the way these guys fucked up other countries."

 

[tighr]

It's not FTL that's the sticking point, it's knowledge of extraterrestrial life. The Edo had no FTL capacity from what we saw, but because they knew about aliens and were okay with that the crew could go down to the planet.

I always thought that one was a bit sticky, because it was the first mention of the Prime Directive in TNG, and they were on a planet that clearly had no FTL capability. It was never made clear who or what the "Gods" were, but the Ent-D didn't know about the aliens in orbit until they had already beamed down to the surface.

I chalked it up to working the bugs out in the first season of a new Trek series, one that probably wouldn't have made it past the drawing board in seasons 3+.

 

[C.E. Evans]

In the part of my quote that you omitted, I said exactly that

One, your post was immediately above mine, so there was no need to quote it in it's entirety.

Two, I was agreeing with you.

I couldn't tell since you omitted the part you agreed with.

 

[7thsealord]

Space is big, and complex. There's probably no end to moral, political and philosophical wrangling that must take place. The Prime Directive is probably a stone tablet in the lobby of Starfleet headquarters with a picture of the British flag with the caption: "Don't fuck up other planets the way these guys fucked up other countries."

I'm sure citizens of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, quite possibly, several others, deeply appreciate your in-depth analysis of their condition.

 

[MacLeod]

Not wanting to turn this into a debate on the British Empire. Wasn't the British Empire all good, no, Was it all bad also no. But what about the French Empire, Spanish Empire, Roman Empire and all the other Empires over the course of history. How does their legacy stand-up.

 

[Sci]

Space is big, and complex. There's probably no end to moral, political and philosophical wrangling that must take place. The Prime Directive is probably a stone tablet in the lobby of Starfleet headquarters with a picture of the British flag with the caption: "Don't fuck up other planets the way these guys fucked up other countries."

I'm sure citizens of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, quite possibly, several others, deeply appreciate your in-depth analysis of their condition.

Really, you don't think the Canadian First Nations, Australian Aborigines, and Māori would agree that the British fucked things up for them?

ETA:

Whatever you may think of the European communities Britain transplanted into the lands it stole from their native inhabitants, let's get one thing straight:

The Federation, unlike the British Empire, is not in the business of conquering foreign lands, or importing its people into lands it has taken from their native inhabitants. The Federation, unlike Britain, is not an empire. That is the virtue of the Prime Directive.

 

[sonak]

Space is big, and complex. There's probably no end to moral, political and philosophical wrangling that must take place. The Prime Directive is probably a stone tablet in the lobby of Starfleet headquarters with a picture of the British flag with the caption: "Don't fuck up other planets the way these guys fucked up other countries."

I'm sure citizens of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, quite possibly, several others, deeply appreciate your in-depth analysis of their condition.

Really, you don't think the Canadian First Nations, Australian Aborigines, and Māori would agree that the British fucked things up for them?

ETA:

Whatever you may think of the European communities Britain transplanted into the lands it stole from their native inhabitants, let's get one thing straight:

The Federation, unlike the British Empire, is not in the business of conquering foreign lands, or importing its people into lands it has taken from their native inhabitants. The Federation, unlike Britain, is not an empire. That is the virtue of the Prime Directive.

I don't think that has much to do with the PD. The PD seems to be about sharing technology, interfering with some sort of mythical "natural cultural development," etc.

I don't think they would need a PD just to say "let's not conquer other peoples."

 

[Sci]

I'm sure citizens of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, quite possibly, several others, deeply appreciate your in-depth analysis of their condition.

Really, you don't think the Canadian First Nations, Australian Aborigines, and Māori would agree that the British fucked things up for them?

ETA:

Whatever you may think of the European communities Britain transplanted into the lands it stole from their native inhabitants, let's get one thing straight:

The Federation, unlike the British Empire, is not in the business of conquering foreign lands, or importing its people into lands it has taken from their native inhabitants. The Federation, unlike Britain, is not an empire. That is the virtue of the Prime Directive.

I don't think that has much to do with the PD. The PD seems to be about sharing technology, interfering with some sort of mythical "natural cultural development," etc.

I don't think they would need a PD just to say "let's not conquer other peoples."

I'm not sure what to call imperialism (be it overt, through military conquest [a la the British Empire in India], or subtle, through control of puppet governments [a la the United States in Latin America]) if not a form of interference.

 

[BillJ]

The Federation, unlike the British Empire, is not in the business of conquering foreign lands, or importing its people into lands it has taken from their native inhabitants. The Federation, unlike Britain, is not an empire. That is the virtue of the Prime Directive.

Except for those worlds it took from Cardassian colonists in Journey's End.

 

[sonak]

Really, you don't think the Canadian First Nations, Australian Aborigines, and Māori would agree that the British fucked things up for them?

ETA:

Whatever you may think of the European communities Britain transplanted into the lands it stole from their native inhabitants, let's get one thing straight:

The Federation, unlike the British Empire, is not in the business of conquering foreign lands, or importing its people into lands it has taken from their native inhabitants. The Federation, unlike Britain, is not an empire. That is the virtue of the Prime Directive.

I don't think that has much to do with the PD. The PD seems to be about sharing technology, interfering with some sort of mythical "natural cultural development," etc.

I don't think they would need a PD just to say "let's not conquer other peoples."

I'm not sure what to call imperialism (be it overt, through military conquest [a la the British Empire in India], or subtle, through control of puppet governments [a la the United States in Latin America]) if not a form of interference.

All imperialism is interference yes, but NOT all interference is imperialism. Sharing technology, or medical knowledge, providing advice on governmental institutions, etc. are not examples of "imperialism" to me. That's defining it so broadly as to make almost any policy short of isolationism out to be "imperialist."