YE: How could the UFP be losing the Klingon war?

[tighr]

I think the Germany comparison WWI-WWII isn't the right one to be making here.

Praxis/Khitomer is 2293, Narendra III is 2344, 51 years. The more apt Earth comparison here would be Japan 1945-1990s. After being decimated in WWII, including the bombing of two key industrial cities, Japan had decades of rebuilding ahead of them. However, partially due to the rebuilding and aid provided to them after the war, they came back stronger than ever. It's conceivable that in some alternate timeline, something catastrophic may have caused Japan and the United States to fight again. Maybe the Russians attack a key Japanese outpost in the Pacific, and a lone US battleship happens to be nearby. Their actions may either cause sympathy or hatred for the United States by Japan.

So, going back to TUC/YE, we have a military society that is wreaked with devastation following the loss of an important industrial center with the destruction of Praxis, and we have the UFP providing humanitarian aid after a peace agreement is reached. 50 years later, Kronos is rebuilt but tensions are mounting, because the Klingons don't like being subservient to the UFP and their assistance. Romulans attack Narendra III, and a lone Starfleet vessel is in the area to provide assistance.

The only thing this doesn't resolve is why in YE they're in negotiations for peace again (peace should already be achieved after Khitomer), but I'm willing to let this one slide. The rest is conceivable.

 

[Sci]

I think the explanation is simpler than a lot of these theories. Imagine that the Klingons got their hands on a lot of military intelligence and pulled a Pearl Harbor on an unimaginable scale, taking out multiple Starfleet shipyards and decimating much of the fleet and/or the infrastructure to support it.

Even simpler than that... the Klingons are a warrior culture/race; their ships are first and foremost for fighting. They don't fear death, they embrace it. .

So was World War II era Japan and they didn't come remotely close to winning against the United States.

You speak as though the United States were not itself an imperialist power with a strong streak of militarism in its culture, and a history of foreign conquests and occupations.

Let's not sit here and pretend the Japanese were somehow more of a "warrior culture" than we were. The Empire of Japan and the United States were both deeply imperialistic cultures.

 

[47]

Or, perhaps ENT just fudged the canon again. ^_^

My theory is that ENT is Star Trek in a timeline where Gene Roddenberry was never born.

 

[Knight Templar]

Even simpler than that... the Klingons are a warrior culture/race; their ships are first and foremost for fighting. They don't fear death, they embrace it. .

So was World War II era Japan and they didn't come remotely close to winning against the United States.

You speak as though the United States were not itself an imperialist power with a strong streak of militarism in its culture, and a history of foreign conquests and occupations.

Let's not sit here and pretend the Japanese were somehow more of a "warrior culture" than we were. The Empire of Japan and the United States were both deeply imperialistic cultures.

The U.S. had fought one and only one war of imperialistic expansion and that was the Spanish-American War 43 years earlier and even at that the U.S. was openly seeking to get rid of is primary possession (the Philippines).

 

[Sci]

So was World War II era Japan and they didn't come remotely close to winning against the United States.

You speak as though the United States were not itself an imperialist power with a strong streak of militarism in its culture, and a history of foreign conquests and occupations.

Let's not sit here and pretend the Japanese were somehow more of a "warrior culture" than we were. The Empire of Japan and the United States were both deeply imperialistic cultures.

The U.S. had fought one and only one war of imperialistic expansion and that was the Spanish-American War

Are you under the impression that most of Central North America just magically popped into the Union? The United States fought numerous wars of conquest throughout the 19th Century to conquer and incorporate Central North America into its territory. See particularly the Indian Wars and the Mexican-American War.

Then there's the:

• Paraguay Expedition
• Occupation of Veracruz
• Platt Amendment and the occupation of Cuba
• U.S. intervention in the Panama/Colombia conflict
• Establishment of the Panama Canal Zone
• Banana Wars
• Occupation of Nicaragua
• Occupation of Haiti
• Occupation of the Dominican Republic
• Roosevelt Corollary
• U.S.-Philippine War

And none of that is counting the numerous acts of imperialism and neo-imperialism the United States has engaged in since World War II, including establishing puppet governments throughout the planet, supporting anti-Communist dictators like Pinochet and the Argentine junta, and, most infamously, the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Let's not sit here and pretend we're any less of a "warrior culture" than the Japanese ever were.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Good question. Plot hole for dramatic effect?

Not taking into account the events of a movie that hasn't been written yet doesn't constitute a "plot hole" by any sensible definition.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

In the episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" the alternate reality had it that the Federation was only a few months from losing the war with the Klingons. But how could this be? Decades previous, the destruction of Khitomer had devastated the Empire to such a degree that it was forced to sue for peace with the Federation, and to basically beg for food and aid and the (non-canonically sure) evacuation of Kronos. And Colonel West had said that the Federation could clean their chronometers. The disappearance of the Enterprise-C would not change those factors since it took place after them. But now it was to Federation itself, which suffered no event like that, which was losing and was going to fall in short order.

I know Star Trek 6 came out after this, but canonically, this has always confused me. Could the Klingons have really rebounded to such a degree by when the Enterprise-C disappeared that when war erupted, they were so tactially better than the UFP?

It may have already been said, but...

Perhaps in the YE timeline, the Praxis incident didn't happen?

The timeline change was 50 years after that so it still happneed in the YE timeline.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know there is one way where TUC makes the Klingons winning in YE plausable in that they could have just gotten to a point where they could build more Birds of Prey that can fire while cloaked and or adapt the technology to work on bigger ships which would give them a major advantage in the war seeing as invisible warships would be able to hit a lot of major targets without a lot of casulaties.

 

[Saul]

Could be that other races smelt blood and were picking off the Federation. They might have been fighting a battle on two fronts. Cardassians? Romulans? Also the Klingons haven't been ones for diplomacy. They would be like a blowing ball to the Federation's Skittles, smashing them with brute force even if with lower numbers. The Federation might just not have been prepared. It happens in battles. Being a Warrior race Klingons are more battle ready than say the UFP who have lived in peace a long time.

 

[Knight Templar]

You speak as though the United States were not itself an imperialist power with a strong streak of militarism in its culture, and a history of foreign conquests and occupations.

Let's not sit here and pretend the Japanese were somehow more of a "warrior culture" than we were. The Empire of Japan and the United States were both deeply imperialistic cultures.

The U.S. had fought one and only one war of imperialistic expansion and that was the Spanish-American War

Are you under the impression that most of Central North America just magically popped into the Union? The United States fought numerous wars of conquest throughout the 19th Century to conquer and incorporate Central North America into its territory. See particularly the Indian Wars and the Mexican-American War.

Then there's the:

• Paraguay Expedition
• Occupation of Veracruz
• Platt Amendment and the occupation of Cuba
• U.S. intervention in the Panama/Colombia conflict
• Establishment of the Panama Canal Zone
• Banana Wars
• Occupation of Nicaragua
• Occupation of Haiti
• Occupation of the Dominican Republic
• Roosevelt Corollary
• U.S.-Philippine War

And none of that is counting the numerous acts of imperialism and neo-imperialism the United States has engaged in since World War II, including establishing puppet governments throughout the planet, supporting anti-Communist dictators like Pinochet and the Argentine junta, and, most infamously, the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Let's not sit here and pretend we're any less of a "warrior culture" than the Japanese ever were.

Insignificant.

 

[Sci]

The U.S. had fought one and only one war of imperialistic expansion and that was the Spanish-American War

Are you under the impression that most of Central North America just magically popped into the Union? The United States fought numerous wars of conquest throughout the 19th Century to conquer and incorporate Central North America into its territory. See particularly the Indian Wars and the Mexican-American War.

Then there's the:

• Paraguay Expedition
• Occupation of Veracruz
• Platt Amendment and the occupation of Cuba
• U.S. intervention in the Panama/Colombia conflict
• Establishment of the Panama Canal Zone
• Banana Wars
• Occupation of Nicaragua
• Occupation of Haiti
• Occupation of the Dominican Republic
• Roosevelt Corollary
• U.S.-Philippine War

And none of that is counting the numerous acts of imperialism and neo-imperialism the United States has engaged in since World War II, including establishing puppet governments throughout the planet, supporting anti-Communist dictators like Pinochet and the Argentine junta, and, most infamously, the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Let's not sit here and pretend we're any less of a "warrior culture" than the Japanese ever were.

Insignificant.

Uh-huh. A hundred years of war and conquest against Indians, Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Filipinos, Hawaiians, Hondurans, Dominicans, Paraguayans, Nicaraguans, Panamanians, and Haitians attest to America's history as being as much of an imperialist "warrior culture" as Japan, and your only answer is "Insignificant." Real solid logic there.

 

[Anwar]

Most likely the Klingons were also very badly messed up by the war and were just as much on the verge of collapse as the Federation. Only difference is that they'd be willing to let their civilization be destroyed if it meant taking out their enemy, whereas the Feds would surrender if it meant saving their people.

 

[Knight Templar]

Are you under the impression that most of Central North America just magically popped into the Union? The United States fought numerous wars of conquest throughout the 19th Century to conquer and incorporate Central North America into its territory. See particularly the Indian Wars and the Mexican-American War.

Then there's the:

• Paraguay Expedition
• Occupation of Veracruz
• Platt Amendment and the occupation of Cuba
• U.S. intervention in the Panama/Colombia conflict
• Establishment of the Panama Canal Zone
• Banana Wars
• Occupation of Nicaragua
• Occupation of Haiti
• Occupation of the Dominican Republic
• Roosevelt Corollary
• U.S.-Philippine War

And none of that is counting the numerous acts of imperialism and neo-imperialism the United States has engaged in since World War II, including establishing puppet governments throughout the planet, supporting anti-Communist dictators like Pinochet and the Argentine junta, and, most infamously, the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Let's not sit here and pretend we're any less of a "warrior culture" than the Japanese ever were.

Insignificant.

Uh-huh. A hundred years of war and conquest against Indians, Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Filipinos, Hawaiians, Hondurans, Dominicans, Paraguayans, Nicaraguans, Panamanians, and Haitians .

If we were imperialists we would've kept most all of that territory......

 

[Sci]

Insignificant.

Uh-huh. A hundred years of war and conquest against Indians, Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Filipinos, Hawaiians, Hondurans, Dominicans, Paraguayans, Nicaraguans, Panamanians, and Haitians .

If we were imperialists we would've kept most all of that territory......

Is there some bill in Congress to give back the Southwest to Mexico of which I am unaware? Are we giving the Midwest back to the Plains Indians? Georgia back to the Cherokee?

And imperialism doesn't just refer to formal conquest and annexation. When the United States does things like prop up horrible dictators like Hosni Mubarak or the Argentine junta, that's imperialism, too -- neo-imperialism, to be precise. Why go to all the trouble of ruling directly when you can just have local puppet governments run things day-to-day?

And even if you think we've genuinely renounced imperialism -- and all those protestors dying in Bahrain from U.S.-made bullets given to the local Bahraini dictator we've been propping up so we'll have a naval base there would probably tell you you're wrong to say that -- this doesn't change the fact that we had in 1941 a history of conquest and imperialism as real and vivid as the Japanese. We were in 1941 as much a warrior culture as they.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I feel this topic is getting derailed by real life examples. It is an interesting subject and I don't wan't to see it locked.

 

[Phily B]

I've always wondered how the Klingons would even occupy the Federation given it's size and scope, along with there being species who'd just declare independence and continue fighting themselves.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I've always wondered how the Klingons would even occupy the Federation given it's size and scope, along with there being species who'd just declare independence and continue fighting themselves.

Well it wouldn't have to be the entirity of Federation territory.

Didn't Broken Bow show us Earth and Q'nonos are only a few days distant at medium warp? Unification showed us that Romulus is close enough to Vulcan space that realtime unboosted subspace communications is somehow possible. And the Cardassia Prime the heart of the Cardassian Union is only a single days travel from the backwater of Bajor. These examples of small empires are all problematic. The size of respective territories is huge but it seems the growth in this area didn't radiate out from a origin point in a natural fashion.

Given these short distances all interstellar wars should be over pretty shortly once naval superiority is determined. DS9 would have us believe the female changling that somehow you can endure blockades and sieges for years but I think that is baloney.

The Earth-Romulan war was over pretty quick and I have no reason to believe it was not a fully engaged and serious conflict.

 

[MAGolding]

The Klingon Empire was still based on Kronos in the TNG-era, so I guess we can assume that they were able to address the problems caused by Praxis' explosion.

Or maybe they were based on the planet new Kronos.

Emperor Norton said:

Well, it could also be thought perhaps the Kronos in TNG was not the original Kronos. In ENT, for example, Kronos had blue skies and looked rather like somewhere out of Mongolia. Or, perhaps the green sky of TNG Kronos could just be attributed to the pollution from Praxis.

Or, perhaps ENT just fudged the canon again. ^_^

I agree we don't know if there was more than one capital planet Kronos in Klingon history.

 

[Emperor Norton]

What's with the sudden burst of necromancy?

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

OK, this one is a bit too long in the grave to exhume. Unfortunately, there is no hard and fast rule on "How old is TOO old?" If this topic needs further exploration, perhaps a new thread is in order.