*FINALLY* I've finished Buffy, let's dish a little.

[Kelthaz]

I wasn't criticizing Buffy or saying that the character is only about fighting. I was just pointing out that in a show like Buffy, where fisticuffs are very important to solving the problem of the week, you will never (rarely?) have another character in the main cast as strong as the heroine. This doesn't apply to Star Trek or Stargate.

 

[DevilEyes]

I wasn't criticizing Buffy or saying that the character is only about fighting. I was just pointing out that in a show like Buffy, where fisticuffs are very important to solving the problem of the week, you will never (rarely?) have another character in the main cast as strong as the heroine. This doesn't apply to Star Trek or Stargate.

I get what you mean, I was just liking lvsxy's point because people often ignore Buffy's street smarts intelligence and other qualities and just describe her as someone who pummels things.

Unlike Kirk or Jack O'Neill, Buffy is already the physically strongest, most skilled fighter so they don't need a Big Guy kind of character in the group - although the Scooby group often has another character whose primary strength is in fisticuffs and who's equal or almost equal to Buffy in that area (Faith, Angel, Spike) as a fringe member whose Scooby membership is mostly dependent on their relationship with Buffy (except in the summer after Buffy's death and her resurrection in S6 when the Scoobies have all the more reason to use Spike as muscle since Buffy is dead and Buffybot isn't the best replacement).

 

[RoJoHen]

season 7 - can't remember any huge scenes, but has the balls to go in fighting with the slayers and witches and gets his eye gouged out for the trouble

Xander's finest scene in the entire show happens in Season 7 during the episode "Potential," when he sits down with Dawn at the end and tells her how he understands what it's like to be the one without any powers and how special she is for being able to give her power up when someone more worthy comes along. I was never a huge Dawn fan, but that scene almost made me tear up. When all Xander's friends are there doing amazing things (the Slayer, the witch, etc), he accepts that he will never have those powers/skills, but he's right by their side all the way.

 

[WillsBabe]

Season 6 was what Joss and Marti Noxon and other ME writers wanted to do - they defined it as a season as one where "Life is the Big Bad". .....

<snip>

I'm in season 3 now and I'm just about to post a review of Amends.

Awesome crit of season 6 Devil Eyes. I was really disappointed watching it "live", but when I had my big Buffy marathon last year I was really taken with season 6. It's a difficult season for me, but I could see some good stuff in it.

I'm looking forward to reading your comments on Amends, since that's one of my favourite episodes.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The Gift was like a fake ending to Buffy's narrative (conforming to the classic hero-martyr tropes)

How so?

She wasn't a martyr for anyone but herself. The Gift was the denouement to the main premise of the show: Buffy's struggle to be both The Slayer and Buffy Summers and at the same time and keep those lives separate.

She was sacrificing herself to save herself. It was the perfect ending to her narrative and quite a departure from the "classic hero-martyr trope."

 

[Mr Light]

When the show was supposed to end with Season Five it was going to be a much better ending:

Instead of mind-lowering Tara, Glory kills her, and Willow goes Dark Willow (so the ending of Season Six was taken out of the ending of Season Five), then Buffy makes the ultimate sacrifice to save the world, the end.

 

[DevilEyes]

The Gift was like a fake ending to Buffy's narrative (conforming to the classic hero-martyr tropes)

How so?

She wasn't a martyr for anyone but herself. The Gift was the denouement to the main premise of the show: Buffy's struggle to be both The Slayer and Buffy Summers and at the same time and keep those lives separate.

She was sacrificing herself to save herself. It was the perfect ending to her narrative and quite a departure from the "classic hero-martyr trope."

By dying at the age of 20? That was the only way out? Just like any other Slayer before?

How would that be a perfect ending to her narrative? Buffy struggled to be a Slayer and have a normal life - friends, family, relationships, ordinary stuff - at the same time, she refused to be "just kill". If her only way to resolve this was dying, that would be defeat. And with the show being conceived as a metaphor for female empowerment (blonde girl in the alley fights and beats the monsters), I really don't think that "the burden for the female hero is too much and the only way out for her is to die" would be a good ending.

When the show was supposed to end with Season Five it was going to be a much better ending:

Instead of mind-lowering Tara, Glory kills her, and Willow goes Dark Willow (so the ending of Season Six was taken out of the ending of Season Five), then Buffy makes the ultimate sacrifice to save the world, the end.

It was never supposed to end with season 5. They just weren't sure if they were going to get a season 6. They planned each season finale as a possible ending because they were never sure if the show wouldn't be cancelled. That's why the seasons never ended with a cliffhanger. Prophecy Girl could have been the series finale, Becoming II could have been the series finale, Graduation Day II could have been, Restless could have been (though the foreshadowing would have been pointless), Grave could have been the ending if push comes to shove.

Joss has said that he always planned seasons of BtVS and AtS as possible series finales in the case the show gets cancelled... The first time he didn't do that was with Firefly.

 

[Dream]

Marti Noxon was the reason why Spike almost raped Buffy. She thought it was a good idea since in real life she tried to do the same thing to get back an old boyfriend, not understanding that it becomes a horrible action if a guy tries to do that to a girl. Stupid bitch.

 

[DevilEyes]

Marti Noxon was the reason why Spike almost raped Buffy. She thought it was a good idea since in real life she tried to do the same thing to get back an old boyfriend, not understanding that it becomes a horrible action if a guy tries to do that to a girl. Stupid bitch.

Could you elaborate on that? If it's a horrible action, then it's horrible action whoever does it. What is the difference?

The only difference I can see is that a man is normally stronger than a woman and more likely to fight her off, which is what happened with her and her ex - and which is what happened with Buffy and Spike, since she's stronger than him. So?

 

[sonak]

Marti Noxon was the reason why Spike almost raped Buffy. She thought it was a good idea since in real life she tried to do the same thing to get back an old boyfriend, not understanding that it becomes a horrible action if a guy tries to do that to a girl. Stupid bitch.

What was stupid is that it was totally out of character for Spike at that point.

Then we got that weird arc where it looked like Spike was setting out to get his chip removed, instead got his soul by surprise, but then it turns out he was really going to get his soul restored after all.

Except why did he go around saying "bitch is going to see a change" if he was setting out to prevent himself from acting that way again? Whatever. It's season 6.

 

[DS9Continuing]

What was stupid is that it was totally out of character for Spike at that point.

I disagree. Spike is entirely capable of obsession, and conducted his relationship with Buffy in much the same way he had conducted his only other successful relationship - with Drusilla. The former was a combination of tenderness and violence just as the latter was.

What had the entire B-S relationship been but fighting and sex and fighting and sex? How many times had Buffy said she never wanted to have sex with him again, and how many times had she come back anyway? How was Spike to know that this time she meant it, when so many other times before she hadn't? It's nothing new for Spike at all - "I'm gonna torture her until she loves me again" -Spike, Lovers Walk, season 3.

And don't even bother trying to claim I'm saying the rape was Buffy's fault. Of course I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it's not out of character for Spike to try it.

Then we got that weird arc where it looked like Spike was setting out to get his chip removed, instead got his soul by surprise, but then it turns out he was really going to get his soul restored after all.

Yeah, that's called "misdirection." It happens in almost every television show ever written and broadcast.

Except why did he go around saying "bitch is going to see a change" if he was setting out to prevent himself from acting that way again? Whatever. It's season 6.

Well, she DID see a change, didn't she? He wasn't wrong.

.

 

[DS9Continuing]

By dying at the age of 20? That was the only way out? Just like any other Slayer before?

How would that be a perfect ending to her narrative? Buffy struggled to be a Slayer and have a normal life - friends, family, relationships, ordinary stuff - at the same time, she refused to be "just kill". If her only way to resolve this was dying, that would be defeat. And with the show being conceived as a metaphor for female empowerment (blonde girl in the alley fights and beats the monsters), I really don't think that "the burden for the female hero is too much and the only way out for her is to die" would be a good ending.

Quite. Buffy's main dilemma was Slayer-versus-real life. "The Gift" was her sacrificing one for the sake of the other. That means that she failed at having a real life. "Chosen" on the other hand was her finally combining the two and coming to a place where she didn't have to choose. That's the end to her story.

Marti Noxon was the reason why Spike almost raped Buffy. She thought it was a good idea since in real life she tried to do the same thing to get back an old boyfriend, not understanding that it becomes a horrible action if a guy tries to do that to a girl. Stupid bitch.

It IS a horrible action, whoever's doing it. And OF COURSE she understood it was a horrible action - why else would she put it there? It needed to be an action so horrible that it drove Spike to the unprecedented decision to voluntarily go get his soul.

Also, nice misogyny there, calling someone whose artistic decisions you disagree with a "stupid bitch." That's real classy.

.

 

[sonak]

What was stupid is that it was totally out of character for Spike at that point.

I disagree. Spike is entirely capable of obsession, and conducted his relationship with Buffy in much the same way he had conducted his only other successful relationship - with Drusilla. The former was a combination of tenderness and violence just as the latter was.

What had the entire B-S relationship been but fighting and sex and fighting and sex? How many times had Buffy said she never wanted to have sex with him again, and how many times had she come back anyway? How was Spike to know that this time she meant it, when so many other times before she hadn't? It's nothing new for Spike at all - "I'm gonna torture her until she loves me again" -Spike, Lovers Walk, season 3.

And don't even bother trying to claim I'm saying the rape was Buffy's fault. Of course I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it's not out of character for Spike to try it.

Then we got that weird arc where it looked like Spike was setting out to get his chip removed, instead got his soul by surprise, but then it turns out he was really going to get his soul restored after all.

Yeah, that's called "misdirection." It happens in almost every television show ever written and broadcast.

Except why did he go around saying "bitch is going to see a change" if he was setting out to prevent himself from acting that way again? Whatever. It's season 6.

Well, she DID see a change, didn't she? He wasn't wrong.

.

Spike's relationship with Buffy was not about "fighting and sex" until well into season 6. He loved her well before that. Did you even watch season 5? And it was nothing like his relationship with Dru either.

As for the arc with Spike getting his soul back,You can defend bad writing as clever misdirection if it makes you feel better.

 

[Dream]

It IS a horrible action, whoever's doing it. And OF COURSE she understood it was a horrible action - why else would she put it there? It needed to be an action so horrible that it drove Spike to the unprecedented decision to voluntarily go get his soul.

Also, nice misogyny there, calling someone whose artistic decisions you disagree with a "stupid bitch." That's real classy.

Marti Noxon ruined season 6 with shoddy ideas as showrunner. I insult plenty of male writers and directors if they do something bad, so women are fair game.

I'm sorry, but having Spike almost rape Buffy was disgusting. James Marsters deserved better than have his character dragged through dirt like that. I found that Angel and Spike improved greatly as characters when they left the toxic relationships that they had with Buffy.

 

[DevilEyes]

Spike's relationship with Buffy was not about "fighting and sex" until well into season 6. He loved her well before that. Did you even watch season 5?

Would that be the season when he told Buffy that she had a death wish and he would slip in once and 'have a really good day' and kill her ("Fool For Love"), when he stalked Buffy, stole her underwear, built a mannequin of her, kidnapped her and chained her to the wall and threatened to get Dru to kill her if she didn't tell him he had a chance with her, and commissioned a robot in her likeness to have sex with?

They started having a close and friendly relationship only since Intervention, but that didn't mean Spike was suddenly a perfectly nice, well-adjusted guy with a healthy attitude to love and relationships.

It IS a horrible action, whoever's doing it. And OF COURSE she understood it was a horrible action - why else would she put it there? It needed to be an action so horrible that it drove Spike to the unprecedented decision to voluntarily go get his soul.

Also, nice misogyny there, calling someone whose artistic decisions you disagree with a "stupid bitch." That's real classy.

Marti Noxon ruined season 6 with shoddy ideas as showrunner. I insult plenty of male writers and directors if they do something bad, so women are fair game.

I'm sorry, but having Spike almost rape Buffy was disgusting. James Marsters deserved better than have his character dragged through dirt like that.

Yeah, when you're an ACTOR you want only to play nice and sweet characters (silly me, I thought actors should be happy when they get to play complex and edgy roles)...

I guess when he signed up to play a vampire with a hundred years of mass murder, rape and torture, he expected what, that his character was gong to only sing lullabies and stroke puppies?

I found that Angel and Spike improved greatly as characters when they left the toxic relationships that they had with Buffy.

And went on to have other toxic relationships? Including that frenemiship/sibling rivalry/whatever they had with each other.

 

[Dream]

Yeah, when you're an ACTOR you want only to play nice and sweet characters (silly me, I thought actors should be happy when they get to play complex and edgy roles)...

I guess when he signed up to play a vampire with a hundred years of mass murder, rape and torture, he expected what, that his character was gong to only sing lullabies and stroke puppies?

After doing that scene James Marsters said he would never do another rape scene again.

What bothered me more was badly written the entire near rape scene was.

And went on to have other toxic relationships? Including that frenemiship/sibling rivalry/whatever they had with each other.

What are you talking about? I loved the relationship that Angel and Spike had together later. They really disliked each other at times but still fought the good fight.

I guess I liked it better when Angel and Spike were on their own and not just reduced to being Buffy's boyfriends. Angel became so much better as a character when he got his own show. Spike was cooler when he didn't constantly have Buffy on his brain.

 

[sonak]

Spike's relationship with Buffy was not about "fighting and sex" until well into season 6. He loved her well before that. Did you even watch season 5?

Would that be the season when he told Buffy that she had a death wish and he would slip in once and 'have a really good day' and kill her ("Fool For Love"), when he stalked Buffy, stole her underwear, built a mannequin of her, kidnapped her and chained her to the wall and threatened to get Dru to kill her if she didn't tell him he had a chance with her, and commissioned a robot in her likeness to have sex with?

They started having a close and friendly relationship only since Intervention, but that didn't mean Spike was suddenly a perfectly nice, well-adjusted guy with a healthy attitude to love and relationships.

Marti Noxon ruined season 6 with shoddy ideas as showrunner. I insult plenty of male writers and directors if they do something bad, so women are fair game.

I'm sorry, but having Spike almost rape Buffy was disgusting. James Marsters deserved better than have his character dragged through dirt like that.

Yeah, when you're an ACTOR you want only to play nice and sweet characters (silly me, I thought actors should be happy when they get to play complex and edgy roles)...

I guess when he signed up to play a vampire with a hundred years of mass murder, rape and torture, he expected what, that his character was gong to only sing lullabies and stroke puppies?

I found that Angel and Spike improved greatly as characters when they left the toxic relationships that they had with Buffy.

And went on to have other toxic relationships? Including that frenemiship/sibling rivalry/whatever they had with each other.

I didn't say that Spike was a "nice, well-adjusted guy," just that his relationship with Buffy wasn't just about fighting and sex. And also that the attempted rape was waaaay out of character for him at that point in the series.

 

[DevilEyes]

After doing that scene James Marsters said he would never do another rape scene again.

So? He's an actor. It's his job. Excuse me if I don't cry over the fate of actors who have to do the job they're (well) paid for. How do actors play villains, serial killers, Nazi concentration camp guards, gangsters? Oh wait, Marsters was actually paid to play an evil vampire serial killer since day one. That the character ended up having a redemption story and ended up being a good guy was a lot more than he could have hoped for when he signed up for the role.

What bothered me more was badly written the entire near rape scene was.

YMMV. I thought it was really well written.

What are you talking about? I loved the relationship that Angel and Spike had together later. They really disliked each other at times but still fought the good fight.

And I loved the relationship with Spike and Buffy, who liked each other way better than Spike and Angel and fought the good fight. If you're so against 'toxic relationships', well show me a healthy relationship either of those two had. Maybe it's Angel/Darla? Spike/Drusilla? Angel's troubled and super-dysfunctional relationship with his son? Maybe it's Spike banging Harmony on the desk before she bit him and started screaming her frustrations at him for him treating her like crap all the time and not caring about her at all? Or maybe it's Angel and Spike's hundred years old pissing contest with the two of them taking every opportunity to get one over the other and competing over women, hero status or cups of mountain dew?

I didn't say that Spike was a "nice, well-adjusted guy," just that his relationship with Buffy wasn't just about fighting and sex.

It was about a lot of things, but in the relationship they had since "Smashed", they had been only connecting through fighting and sex - sex that often started with "no" - "stop me" dubious consent moments. It was a dynamic he was used to - she had said 'no' many times and he had used sex lots of times to change her mind.

And also that the attempted rape was waaaay out of character for him at that point in the series.

That's what you think. I think it was perfectly in character under the circumstances. If he had gone out there thinking "I'm now going to rape Buffy to punish her" then I'd agree, but that's not what happened. He went there to talk to her and then he tried to do what he had many times before, connect with her through sex and show her that she really wanted and loved him even if she didn't want to admit that. He didn't know how to respect boundaries, and was still operating under the same ideas about love and relationships he had 3 years earlier when he planned to tie Drusilla up and torture her until she likes him again.

I'd love to know why exactly was attempted rape "waaay out of character" for him at that point. Just before he started sleeping with Buffy, he tried to bite a woman to prove he can still be a bad vampire, as soon as he thought his chip wasn't working. And during his relationship with Buffy, it wasn't uncommon for him to tell her things like "I always knew that the one thing better than killing a Slayer would be fucking one" or that she should accept that she's a creature of darkness like him.

 

[Takeru]

I'm sorry, but having Spike almost rape Buffy was disgusting. James Marsters deserved better than have his character dragged through dirt like that.

At that point his character was a soulless monster and the only reason he didn't murder people left and right was because he had a chip in his brain that prevented it. Many people seem to forget that he did not chose to stop killing humans, he hadn't changed at all, trying to rape Buffy was absolutely in character for him and made a lot of sense.

 

[sonak]

After doing that scene James Marsters said he would never do another rape scene again.

So? He's an actor. It's his job. Excuse me if I don't cry over the fate of actors who have to do the job they're (well) paid for. How do actors play villains, serial killers, Nazi concentration camp guards, gangsters? Oh wait, Marsters was actually paid to play an evil vampire serial killer since day one. That the character ended up having a redemption story and ended up being a good guy was a lot more than he could have hoped for when he signed up for the role.

What bothered me more was badly written the entire near rape scene was.

YMMV. I thought it was really well written.

And I loved the relationship with Spike and Buffy, who liked each other way better than Spike and Angel and fought the good fight. If you're so against 'toxic relationships', well show me a healthy relationship either of those two had. Maybe it's Angel/Darla? Spike/Drusilla? Angel's troubled and super-dysfunctional relationship with his son? Maybe it's Spike banging Harmony on the desk before she bit him and started screaming her frustrations at him for him treating her like crap all the time and not caring about her at all? Or maybe it's Angel and Spike's hundred years old pissing contest with the two of them taking every opportunity to get one over the other and competing over women, hero status or cups of mountain dew?

I didn't say that Spike was a "nice, well-adjusted guy," just that his relationship with Buffy wasn't just about fighting and sex.

It was about a lot of things, but in the relationship they had since "Smashed", they had been only connecting through fighting and sex - sex that often started with "no" - "stop me" dubious consent moments. It was a dynamic he was used to - she had said 'no' many times and he had used sex lots of times to change her mind.

And also that the attempted rape was waaaay out of character for him at that point in the series.

That's what you think. I think it was perfectly in character under the circumstances. If he had gone out there thinking "I'm now going to rape Buffy to punish her" then I'd agree, but that's not what happened. He went there to talk to her and then he tried to do what he had many times before, connect with her through sex and show her that she really wanted and loved him even if she didn't want to admit that. He didn't know how to respect boundaries, and was still operating under the same ideas about love and relationships he had 3 years earlier when he planned to tie Drusilla up and torture her until she likes him again.

I'd love to know why exactly was attempted rape "waaay out of character" for him at that point. Just before he started sleeping with Buffy, he tried to bite a woman to prove he can still be a bad vampire, as soon as he thought his chip wasn't working. And during his relationship with Buffy, it wasn't uncommon for him to tell her things like "I always knew that the one thing better than killing a Slayer would be fucking one" or that she should accept that she's a creature of darkness like him.

Again, you're giving examples that show that Spike was still basically a bad guy at that point. I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that him trying to rape Buffy at that point in the relationship was out of character. Of course he was capable of it, I just don't think he would do it.