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The Utopian Federation: Restart

One of the more telling moments of TNG was First Contact, in which Picard speaks of the Federation's "evolved sensibility". No-one watching can take him seriously, and that's the point:

I just listened to a clip of it-- he does seem to contradict himself while saying all of this. Yet at the same time, he really does seem to believe it.

It's called "cognitive dissonance."

I think the point is that just because everyone's basic needs are taken care of doesn't mean the citizens all become perfect.

True, Trek has never really explained the behavior part. It always described humans changing for the better by referring to the elimination of poverty.

Maybe that's a basic assumption.

But how do you get from poverty is eliminated to 'we judge no one by outward appearances anymore?'

Well, in part by recognizing that racism is an ideological system created as a means of class warfare. People are not inherently racist; what happened, historically, was that the wealthy white elite recognized that the oppressed lower white tiers of society might make common cause with oppressed blacks, and so sought to instill into those whites feelings of alienation from and superiority to blacks. By elevating those whites slightly above blacks in the class system, and by creating these racial animosities, the white elite could therefore "divide and conquer;" by keeping the oppressed classes hostile to one-another through the ideological system called racism, their domination was secured.

In a classless society, a lot of the driving forces behind racist ideologies collapse. That doesn't mean racism would disappear immediately, but it does mean that the driving mechanisms are gone.

That's a ridiculous leap to make. You're taking a character who is speaking in a very figurative, emotive way in order to construct rhetorical justifications for militarism and authoritarianism
A number of different characters has referred to earth as a paradise, in different contexts.

Yes, and they were all speaking metaphorically. People like to call the United States the "land of the free," but that doesn't mean there are no prisoners or no oppressed people.

Consider that earth has weather modification systems, (and other things) it would probably be easy to create lush landscapes-to the point of shaping the environment around them.

I really think that's a stretch. For one thing, you're talking about the sort of interference in the natural ecosystem that would likely result in cataclysmic damage to the environment. There's just no way to control such a complex system without destabilizing the whole thing. The weather modification network is probably there to do things like make sure tornadoes don't form over downtown Chicago, not to literally control the entire natural environment.

Combine it with the little or no crime aspect, no money needed, food is free, everyone is basically happy, no sexism, no racism, no bigotry, there's freedom, virtually no illnesses, and all the technological goodies, that's a good argument that humans at least think they live in Utopia.

I think that 24th Century Humans are very aware that they live in a society that has solved many of the social problems that vexed their ancestors. I think some tend to take that and apply it as a form of blind patriotism -- the "Rah rah rah, we're ever so evolved, my goodness we rock" ethnocentric types. Riker in "The Last Outpost" is a prime example. Others, such as Sisko, take a more skeptical view towards how much more evolved Humanity truly is and how "perfect" Earth actually is. So it seems like there's a lot of argument over how much of a "paradise" Earth is and over how "evolved" Humanity is -- just like today, there's a lot of argument over just whether or not the United States is a truly just and free country.

Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that there's some Federation equivalent to The Nation or Mother Jones, still banging away at their 24th Century keyboards, arguing that the Federation still has major flaws that need to be fixed. As well there should be -- a society that becomes too complacent about whether or not it lives up to its principles is a society that's doomed to start violating them.

Making the claim that personal existence lasts beyond one's death is an extraordinary thing to claim ...
Extraordinary? I disagree, if anything the claim of survival subsequent to death is quite common amongst Humans, and is hardly either uncommon or unusual.

You're playing a word game and it's not cute.

Sonak is very clearly and obviously using the word "extraordinary" in the sense of "violating the laws of physics as they are currently understood and lacking in empirical support," not in the sense of "commonly believed by many people."

Belief in an afterlife may well be common, but this does not mean that it is not an extraordinary claim, nor does it mean that it is supported by empirical evidence.

NDE may be able to least strongly suggest there might be something else.

Considering that so-called "near-death experiences" seem to mirror the well-established effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain, and that the supernatural figures identified in them seem to vary according to the culture into which the individual so having the experience was raised, I'm fairly skeptical of this claim.

Hell, the very second episode, "Where No Man Has Gone Before," establishes widespread Human prejudice against telepaths.

I think it was a desire not to end up like the Valiant that was motivating everyone there instead of a prejudice against telepaths

I suppose that's a valid interpretation, but Dehner's dialogue to me seemed to be implying a more generalized fear of and prejudice against telepathic Humans.

The Feds want to forcefully remove a peaceful colony while allied with a questionable power..
You mean like they did in TNG's "Journey's End?"

To be fair in "Journey's End' it was a federation colony not a planet populated by non-federation members, and the feds left the colonists alone for the most part when they ultimately decided to stay.

Absolutely! Which goes to my point: The Federation has progressed beyond any modern society. It is free of poverty, of major disease, of hunger, of want, of class, of racism, of sexism, etc. But it's not perfect. What it is, however, is, it's a society that's dedicated to its ideals of liberty and egalitarianism, and when abuses occur, it tends to correct them. Which is far, far more than modern societies can say most of the time.
 
The claim isn't extraordinary - it is a common claim. What's claimed is extraordinary - it isn't something we observe in ordinary life.
 
It's been said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", and I completely agree with this one. Which is why I tend to be skeptical. I'm not a big fan of new age ideas.

But the NDE where a woman, blind since birth, was seeing things in the operating room, (and later accurately describing them) has been a hard one to explain.

Because things like a blind woman since birth, seeing things (that are verified later) while unconscious, tend to be extraordinary.

I give this one some consideration.

In a classless society, a lot of the driving forces behind racist ideologies collapse.

I agree. The people who have the most to lose when they finally invent replicators, will be the ones with ego problems.

But the other hand, knowing humans as we do, people might just use the damn things, and still be a-holes.

Ironically, Trek shows cultures that use replicators, and still have every bad trait imaginable still in their societies.
 
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I suppose that's a valid interpretation, but Dehner's dialogue to me seemed to be implying a more generalized fear of and prejudice against telepathic Humans.

I never got that seeing as the one pushing for either stranding or killing Mitchell was Spock and he is also the one to bring the Valiant's destruction.

Not to mention Mitchel's later (likely) insanity induced megalomania probably did help.

Plus in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" nobody seemed to have a problem with Dr. Jones who was also a telepathic human.
 
Since this thread has in some ways become two distinct but not unrelated discussions I shall make two distinct but not unrelated answers.

First I shall answer the question as asked...

World War Three. I believe that if the majority of the earth's population had not been reduced to subsistence levels by this global conflict then there would have been no chance of a truly united Earth. First contact with the Vulcans sped the process up, but thanks to most people being brought down to the same level I believe it helped a great number to realize their common bonds and to focus more on that than on their differences. I have held this belief for a very long time and I had it indicated as correct recently when I read something that Patrick Stewart said (forgive me but I don't have the quote and I'm tired and not in the mood to go Googling) about growing up in England after the second world war and the countries embrace of what was essentially socialism and how it was possible because of so many people being reduced to subsistence levels of existence that suddenly seeing that everyone's basic needs were taken care of became more important than attempting to prosper at the expense of others. What this means for the real world? Well sadly I think it would just about take WW3 to break through the barriers built up by lifetimes of greed and want.

Now secondly I shall answer the zeitgeist contained within this thread.

Fuck you.

Do you want to know what makes a person a sheep? I'll tell you. It's having their subsistence level existence made dependent on the whims of the rich and the powerful. It makes a person censor themselves, neuter themselves. Don't speak up, don't stand up, don't do ANYTHING that might risk what little security or comfort you have. If they hand you a shit sandwich, smile and say "Thank you" and be grateful they've chosen to give you anything at all. That's what makes a person a sheep.

I grew up working class. Working poor really. When I graduated high school I had one of two choices for continuing my education. I could have tried to have gotten loans (and this was in the early 90's when things were just starting to get incredibly ridiculously restrictive for college loans) or I could have tried to pay my own way. Applying for a government grant was not an option because they required I provide financial information from my parents well into my 20's and my father refused. Since at the time I really was not certain what I wanted to go to school for I feared taking out a loan, and frankly while I'm certain many of the "Right" wingers in this country would view me as weak willed and other fucking bullshit I've not really been a work myself into exhaustion trying to burn the candle at both ends and the middle type. Frankly I did not believe I had the wherewithall to work full time and try to go to school as well.

Now? Now I work a subsistence level job that pays 25 cents above minimum wage. I have not seen a raise since just a few months after I started. The only upside to living in an economically depressed area is that the cost of living is somewhat lower than it would be elsewhere. So I get by. Barely. I am fortunate to not have or want kids. But the material goods I do have are few and not easily replaced. I have a heading for 20 year old van that I dread every day if anything serious should happen to it.

Do you know what I'd like to do? I want to write. I had a blog. I hardly ever touch it any more. I come home exhausted, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually from a job I despise that contributes nothing to the betterment of my fellow beings and by the time I get home it's usually all I can do to try to do a little basic housework, cook a meal, and relax some.

To claim that if I had all that constant want and worry taken from me I would simply lay about like a slug? That I would become a sheep? Well allow me to sum up by way of reiteration...

Fuck You.
 
Now? Now I work a subsistence level job that pays 25 cents above minimum wage. I have not seen a raise since just a few months after I started. The only upside to living in an economically depressed area is that the cost of living is somewhat lower than it would be elsewhere. So I get by. Barely. I am fortunate to not have or want kids. But the material goods I do have are few and not easily replaced. I have a heading for 20 year old van that I dread every day if anything serious should happen to it.

This is such bullshit.

I have not gone to college at all and was able to get into management twice at two different corporations. First at WalMart and later at Fifth-Third Bank.

You know how? By coming early, staying late and learning everything there was to learn. When I started at Fifth-Third in 1998 the position paid $7/hour for a basic labor position when I left in 2009 (due to health issues) I was making $41,000/year. If I had stayed, the sky was the limit. I rode the bus back and forth (90 minutes each way).

When I go back to work in the fall, I'll take another low-paying starting position and I'll bring the same work ethic to it that I've always brought to any job I've had.

My wife went to work at a call center six years ago making eight dollars an hour and through hard work has pretty much doubled it.

I have the feeling you walk around with an attitude that you're too good for the work you do and your bosses probably pick up on that.

By the by, nothing stops you from going and getting financing for college now that you're an adult...

Do you know what I'd like to do? I want to write. I had a blog. I hardly ever touch it any more. I come home exhausted, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually from a job I despise that contributes nothing to the betterment of my fellow beings and by the time I get home it's usually all I can do to try to do a little basic housework, cook a meal, and relax some.

You know most writers work full time jobs and write whenever they get the chance? If you're wanting to write to pay the bills then you're writing for the wrong reason.
 
^Well aren't you just so vastly superior. Allow me to initiate a slow clap in your honor.

CLAP



wait for it...
 
^Well aren't you just so vastly superior. Allow me to initiate a slow clap in your honor.

CLAP



wait for it...

Not about being vastly superior, it's about paying attention to what an employer needs.

Your post comes off as a pity party for yourself. It's your employer's fault that you don't make enough money, that you have an old van, that you don't have a lot of possessions and that you don't write. It's your Father's fault you didn't go to college.

There are people out there that have real issues and real reasons they are more challenged at being successful. You come off as whiny and lazy.
 
One thought:

It's often cited that trying to provide everyone the basics is futile because of human greed. This doesn't seem to address the real issue though.

It may be true that some people will always want "more" no matter how much they have, but when the people who want "more" can only get it by taking away from everyone else, that's when society collapses. That's the issue with civilizations that devolve into a zero sum game.

I think the secret behind a "Star Trek" economy is not that it somehow magically eliminates human ambition or typical human behavior. Rather, it insures that no matter WHAT certain people in society do, EVERYONE always has a basic, respectable, standard of living and they don't have to debase themselves or waste their life and potential as labor slaves in order to survive.

Who cares if someone in the Star Trek economy is an idiot who wants a house that looks more impressive out front than his neighbors? Let me go do whatever and waste the extra resources he earns on decoration and display so long as it means he doesn't create poverty elsewhere as a result of his ambition.

FYI, the Star Trek model of society is based in part on funneling the drive for human achievement into institutions that benefit everyone without turning into money-hoarding schemes. People who want to achieve something go into Star Fleet, go into corporations (that still exist in Star Trek) that are designed to research technology and infrastructure, etc.

On Trek's Earth, it seems the only people who are *actually* out of business in the future are people like bankers. And even today, those institutions are increasingly seen as scams and illegitimate - they're nothing more than basic civil services (buildings that sit on money and hold it for people) that have played the system in order to become wealthy empires and generate godlike profits for the men in control of them. And the economic games such organizations play can ruin large segments of society.

The Trek world seems at the basic level to be nothing more than a sane world; where greed has been diverted from accumulating power beneath itself, and technology has insured that everyone's basic survival is considered a "right" and part and parcel of human dignity rather than a game of competition in which there are winners and losers.

This seems anathema to much of contemporary human society because people have been well and truly conditioned to see the world as that zero sum game where everyone else is theoretically a potential adversary stealing rice from the mouth of your own children, and your purpose in life is to claw your way to the top and kick the other bastard in the face. (This kind of civilization, incidentally, greatly benefits the humans at the top of the pyramids who need the little people fighting amongst themselves for table scraps.)
 
Now? Now I work a subsistence level job that pays 25 cents above minimum wage. I have not seen a raise since just a few months after I started. The only upside to living in an economically depressed area is that the cost of living is somewhat lower than it would be elsewhere. So I get by. Barely. I am fortunate to not have or want kids. But the material goods I do have are few and not easily replaced. I have a heading for 20 year old van that I dread every day if anything serious should happen to it.

This is such bullshit.

I have not gone to college at all and was able to get into management twice at two different corporations. First at WalMart and later at Fifth-Third Bank.

You know how? By coming early, staying late and learning everything there was to learn. When I started at Fifth-Third in 1998 the position paid $7/hour for a basic labor position when I left in 2009 (due to health issues) I was making $41,000/year. If I had stayed, the sky was the limit. I rode the bus back and forth (90 minutes each way).

When I go back to work in the fall, I'll take another low-paying starting position and I'll bring the same work ethic to it that I've always brought to any job I've had.

My wife went to work at a call center six years ago making eight dollars an hour and through hard work has pretty much doubled it.

I have the feeling you walk around with an attitude that you're too good for the work you do and your bosses probably pick up on that.

By the by, nothing stops you from going and getting financing for college now that you're an adult...

Do you know what I'd like to do? I want to write. I had a blog. I hardly ever touch it any more. I come home exhausted, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually from a job I despise that contributes nothing to the betterment of my fellow beings and by the time I get home it's usually all I can do to try to do a little basic housework, cook a meal, and relax some.
You know most writers work full time jobs and write whenever they get the chance? If you're wanting to write to pay the bills then you're writing for the wrong reason.


right. The hardest working and most dedicated in society naturally rise to the top because economies are meritocracies and they reward the virtuous. Please-what world do you live in? You may think of yourself as somewhat liberal, but your post is filled with every smug, condescending right-wing cliche I've ever seen.

if you truly believe the crap in your post then why do you support helping the poor or unemployed at all? Their situations are their own faults and they should just work hard and get over it.
 
Read my follow up post sonak. :techman:

I'm all for programs to help those at the lower tiers of society. But I have a hard time respecting someone like Stoek who is too lazy to even use those programs.

In my lifetime, I've yet to see a downside to working hard.
 
Read my follow up post sonak. :techman:

I'm all for programs to help those at the lower tiers of society. But I have a hard time respecting someone like Stoek who is too lazy to even use those programs.

In my lifetime, I've yet to see a downside to working hard.


I'm not sure one should have to work twice as hard and twice as long just to barely get by. I'm sorry but I see little correlation between how hard one works and how much money they make. Teachers, firemen, soldiers, construction workers, etc. all work hard and get paid crap compared to a CEO.
 
Things like this are why the Democrats are constantly fighting the welfare state stigma. You have someone who admits to not wanting to work and try to better themselves at the same time, blames their current financial situation on their employer and blame the fact they didn't go to college on their parents.

Yet you have people lining up to defend them instead of stressing that the attitude they have is simply wrong. And the poster above is exactly the type of person that would take advantage of lying around all day in Utopia.
 
This is such bullshit.

I have not gone to college at all and was able to get into management twice at two different corporations. First at WalMart and later at Fifth-Third Bank.

You know how? By coming early, staying late and learning everything there was to learn. When I started at Fifth-Third in 1998 the position paid $7/hour for a basic labor position when I left in 2009 (due to health issues) I was making $41,000/year. If I had stayed, the sky was the limit. I rode the bus back and forth (90 minutes each way).

When I go back to work in the fall, I'll take another low-paying starting position and I'll bring the same work ethic to it that I've always brought to any job I've had.

My wife went to work at a call center six years ago making eight dollars an hour and through hard work has pretty much doubled it.

I have the feeling you walk around with an attitude that you're too good for the work you do and your bosses probably pick up on that.

By the by, nothing stops you from going and getting financing for college now that you're an adult...

You know most writers work full time jobs and write whenever they get the chance? If you're wanting to write to pay the bills then you're writing for the wrong reason.
Not about being vastly superior, it's about paying attention to what an employer needs.

Your post comes off as a pity party for yourself. It's your employer's fault that you don't make enough money, that you have an old van, that you don't have a lot of possessions and that you don't write. It's your Father's fault you didn't go to college.

There are people out there that have real issues and real reasons they are more challenged at being successful. You come off as whiny and lazy.

You're right. I have huge amount of pity. For myself, for my fellow humans, even for someone like yourself. I have pity for the fact that so many of us have to live in constant fear of losing the basic necessities of life with the least little downturn in fortune. I have pity for the fact that there are many who have even less than I do and see no way to better their situation save through crime. I have pity that someone who appears to have intelligence and drive, instead of being able to wake up every morning and figure out what they want to do to enrich themselves and their fellow beings on a deeper and more meaningful level instead feels they have to figure out how to ingratiate themselves with the self appointed "Master" class so as to assure that their basic material needs are met. I have pity for every person enslaved by runaway Capitalism that has so absorbed their chains that not only can they not conceive of a different way of being in the world but they will even seek to ridicule and in some cases actively work against those who can.

One thought:

It's often cited that trying to provide everyone the basics is futile because of human greed. This doesn't seem to address the real issue though.

It may be true that some people will always want "more" no matter how much they have, but when the people who want "more" can only get it by taking away from everyone else, that's when society collapses. That's the issue with civilizations that devolve into a zero sum game.

I think the secret behind a "Star Trek" economy is not that it somehow magically eliminates human ambition or typical human behavior. Rather, it insures that no matter WHAT certain people in society do, EVERYONE always has a basic, respectable, standard of living and they don't have to debase themselves or waste their life and potential as labor slaves in order to survive.

Who cares if someone in the Star Trek economy is an idiot who wants a house that looks more impressive out front than his neighbors? Let me go do whatever and waste the extra resources he earns on decoration and display so long as it means he doesn't create poverty elsewhere as a result of his ambition.

FYI, the Star Trek model of society is based in part on funneling the drive for human achievement into institutions that benefit everyone without turning into money-hoarding schemes. People who want to achieve something go into Star Fleet, go into corporations (that still exist in Star Trek) that are designed to research technology and infrastructure, etc.

On Trek's Earth, it seems the only people who are *actually* out of business in the future are people like bankers. And even today, those institutions are increasingly seen as scams and illegitimate - they're nothing more than basic civil services (buildings that sit on money and hold it for people) that have played the system in order to become wealthy empires and generate godlike profits for the men in control of them. And the economic games such organizations play can ruin large segments of society.

The Trek world seems at the basic level to be nothing more than a sane world; where greed has been diverted from accumulating power beneath itself, and technology has insured that everyone's basic survival is considered a "right" and part and parcel of human dignity rather than a game of competition in which there are winners and losers.

This seems anathema to much of contemporary human society because people have been well and truly conditioned to see the world as that zero sum game where everyone else is theoretically a potential adversary stealing rice from the mouth of your own children, and your purpose in life is to claw your way to the top and kick the other bastard in the face. (This kind of civilization, incidentally, greatly benefits the humans at the top of the pyramids who need the little people fighting amongst themselves for table scraps.)

Kaijima, you've made some excellent points. I would also add that the craving for "more" has been transformed. Since "things" are generally readily available it is more that people crave more challenges, more unique experiences etc. Sure some people still want "things" but now since a house, food, clothes, entertainment etc is all pretty much free they pursue things that are more rare and unique. Either they search for them, or they create them. But in both cases it's not just about the thing, but what the thing represents.

You also are on the right track with the idiot with the large house but I think it's not so much that as it is that people are no longer afraid to try anything they wish and to fail at it. Take for example Julian Bashir's father. From a certain point of view the man is a buffoon. He's tried countless endeavors and he keeps failing at them. But thanks to the Federation and their post scarcity economy he is free to keep trying. He doesn't have to go and get a meaningless minimum wage job just to keep food in his belly and a roof over his head. As a result he can try and try and try. Maybe he'll fail the rest of his life. But maybe not. Maybe one day he'll find the thing that he not only loves to do but is also good at. But if he never does at least he can keep trying knowing that he will never be homeless and hungry.

I know that it's highly unlikely that such a world will come to be any time soon if ever. But a world where everyone is free to pursue their passions, and interests instead of ekeing out a living? Well to me that is a dream worth dreaming.
 
Things like this are why the Democrats are constantly fighting the welfare state stigma. You have someone who admits to not wanting to work and try to better themselves at the same time, blames their current financial situation on their employer and blame the fact they didn't go to college on their parents.

Yet you have people lining up to defend them instead of stressing that the attitude they have is simply wrong. And the poster above is exactly the type of person that would take advantage of lying around all day in Utopia.


I'm not sure who you mean by "poster above," whether you mean Stoek or myself, but I don't know how you make judgments like that based on folks you don't know. If he's working a minimum-wage job full-time, then he's not lazy. And I'm not either. I've held down jobs and did four years in the military.

And again, you're missing the argument that he and I and others have made here: desperation and economic insecurity ISN'T they key to a productive society. In fact, providing security is what enables folks to have that safety net to take the risks they need to be creative and productive.

You're chasing an illusion: that hard work by itself will guarantee success. It worked for you. Ok, great. I'm happy for you. You seem successful and happy by all indications. But you can't extrapolate an entire economic reality from one case. There are people that will work hard all their lives and never get ahead. They won't move up, they won't get the respect and status they want, they won't pass Go and collect that $200. They may never be able to have kids or retire.
 
Please stay on topic. This is not supposed to be a discussion about the current US economy and economic climate. Stoek already got back on topic, so it would be cool if you two, BillJ and sonak could do so, too. Thanks.
 
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