I suppose it's possible that there was more to it than just the stardates, but it's the stardates issue that I've heard from Mike Friedman at Shore Leave a few times over the years.
Dr. Gillian Taylor?
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We're talking about Trek here. Having something interpreted in such a way that the simplest and most likely is the only way to see it doesn't have a lot of precedent.
A lot of the fun of the books is seeing how the authors take something that seems straight forward and turning our perceptions of it on it's ear is half the fun.
I'm sure there's some preserved humpback bones stores somewhere on Earth. With advanced medical technology, including cloning, it's possible to repopulate the species much faster than waiting for George and Gracie to do it all. Do a little gene splicing from the preserved DNA and you could soon have thousands of humpbacks swimming in the seas. Maybe Gillian was assigned to go find planets suitable for transferring some of the offspring to so the species wouldn't be at risk any longer. See Cachalot by Alan Dean Foster. We don't know how long after the crash the trail scene is set. Since Gracie was VERY pregnant it's possible that the little one is born by this point and Gillian is just taking a couple of months to work on the second phase of the project. She may trust the Federation scientists enough by this time to leave the whales alone with them, at least for a little while. You've probably got cetacean experts from across known space checking them out at this point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachalot_(novel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachalot_(novel)
An "advantage", sure. The end-all, be-all, authority on all thngs cetacean? Doubtful. We at the very least know that Humpback Whales don't survive until the 23c, but other orca species could have who'd provide a place to draw from on how to treat George and Gracie.
Alien hostile environment? They were returned to the very same ocean they just left! Hell they were returned to a ocean that's likely cleaner and more hospitable as well as now being on a planet populated by a species that appreciates the sentience/sapience of whales.
Again, I don't doubt Gillian's "expertise" would have proven to be somewhat useful but I'd think the sensibilities of the future as well as the centuries of learning would push quite hard against Gillian's schooling.
There's things about surviving ocean species that the 23c scientists know that are beyond Gillian's understanding.
I don't think the 23c people are going to be so quick to separate Gillian from the rest of the 20c people as a while. We've been shown time and time again in Trek (more notably in TNG) how much 20c humans are looked down on In this very movie McCoy grumbles about wondering how humans survived past the 21st century and has no faith in the medicine of the time. Yet at the same time we know that there's people on Earth who'll have meaningful (positive) impact on the future McCoy enjoys. In the 1980s the very beginnings of medical research with DNA and such is starting up that's doubtlessly endlessly useful to McCoy's job every single day. Still doesn't mean he's going to accept 20th century medicine
I think Gillian will be looked at the same way, sure, she's "one of the 'good' ones, but she's still "one of them."
You bring up a good point on the Cochrane thing. Because in First Contact we're very nicely shown the difference between hour our heroes, founders and people we idolize are in history books and how they really were. We don't know how the 24c thinks of Lilly but we are shown that Cochrane left much to be expected.
In something of a conclusion:
I'd think the most they would do with Gillian is "pick her brain" to get some basic idea of what to do and what to expect. But that's about it. There's the transporter trace on the Klingon ship which can provide a great deal of information about the species on a quantum level, they have telepathic species (like Vulcans) who can communicate directly with George and Gracie and depending how much of grasp humans have when it comes with dealing with other cetacean species there may be other ways to communicate with them. Gillian is no doubt a good source of information, but she's not the only one. The Federation has much, much more at their disposal to get information they need and they have centuries of experience when it comes to learning about species no one knows anything about. (Given that that's pretty much their entire goal.)
But you'd still need input from the one scientist who has firsthand experience with their biology, behavior, care requirements, etc. It's not enough just to churn them out on an assembly line; you still need to understand their needs as living beings in a dynamic and potentially dangerous environment.
Especially since cloning extra whales would leave you with more calves than the available adults could take care of. That's a very dangerous thing for a sentient, social species like whales. We've seen with elephants in South Asia (and humans in violence-plagued regions) that when too many adults are killed off, the young don't get the socialization they need to learn proper behavior and can turn out erratic and violent. So it's probably a bad idea to clone them too quickly. For the long term, yes, absolutely, recovering any viable DNA from remains would be invaluable for increasing the genetic diversity of the population. But there are very good reasons to increase the population gradually.
By the same token, George & Gracie themselves would need to be kept safe and protected for as long as possible, because they'd be the only ones who could transmit that social, behavioral, and cultural education to their offspring. Ideally that would be supplemented by using Vulcan mind melds and universal translators to learn as much as possible from G&G so that the humanoid caregivers could take over if anything happened to the adult whales; and maybe that could let them help out with educating a increased population of cloned or artificially gestated calves. Still, there's no substitute for the real thing. If you want animals, intelligent or otherwise, to be able to thrive in the wild, they need to be raised by their own kind.
Why would they not be at risk in an alien ocean? Surely those oceans have their own predators, diseases, and other hazards, and the whales would be more poorly adapted to them than they are to Earth's oceans.
The single worst threat to the survival of the humpback whale species was whaling by humans. That practice was mostly halted in 1966, and since then the humpback population had rebounded and is no longer in danger of extinction. Granted, obviously things went differently in the Trek universe, but it's a given that there aren't commercial whaling fleets roving the seas of Earth in the 23rd century. So once they rebuild a population base that's stable against predation, disease, and accident, they'd be as safe on Earth as on any other world. And before they reach that point -- a process that would take decades -- they'd need close humanoid supervision, so a highly populated, advanced Federation water world like Earth is a very, very good place for them to be.
Sure, maybe, possibly, but why bother concocting such a rationalization in the first place? They did not, at any point in the movie, say that she was going into space. There's no need to justify something that was never actually asserted.
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doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
I tried opening the file on my Mac but can't, and online conversion to PDF doesn't seem to work either. Oh well.
Thanks though.
Use Calibre for the conversion:
http://calibre-ebook.com/download_osx
Got it to work with Calibre. Thanks so much!
More like, the galaxy's leading expert on all things humpback whale.
And Christopher already pointed out several ways in which that ocean would have changed in the intervening three hundred years, including:
- currents
- temperatures
- nutrient availability
- evolution of new pathogens predation
- population levels of other species competing for resources
- levels of predation from other species
In other words, you're asserting that 23rd Century Federates would indulge in prejudice and unjust discrimination. Lovely.
You are vastly underestimating how much useful knowledge Gillian would necessarily have on humpback whales as a Ph.D. and expert in the species, and are vastly overestimating how much information the Federation would have on a species that has literally never existed throughout Federation history -- that indeed hasn't existed in anyone's living memory.
The H.M.S. Bounty/I.K.S. Qel'Poh sank. It sank after suffering numerous systems failures during its time travel. I see no reason to think its computers' data are recoverable.
No one has asserted she is the only one. We've asserted that she is the best one.
Exactly. It was never said or implied that she went into space, and there's no reason to think she did.
I always just assumed that it would kind of be like a trade off, Gillian would assist in the monitoring of the whales and make sure they are adjusting well to their new environment while also consulting with cetacean experts of the time and at the same time being taught by them. I'm sure in the whole of the Federation there weren't other planets with experts that could assist Earth with George and Gracie. Gillian wasn't just going to be the loan person overseeing their development, a vital one yes but not the only one.
A fact which the ST IV novelization incorporates, IIRC.
She won't have lost her other marine biology skills.
I haven't read through this entire thing but here's a question:
Could it be plausible that Dr. Gillian Taylor is not necessarily the only expert on humpback whales? Let me explain. Consider this fact: there are experts in today's day and age who are experts in dinosaurs or other extinct species. Obviously, those experts were not around while those creatures were alive yet they've studied them so much that they know so much about their existence (and will continue to know about their existence as technology improves).
Is it not likely that there's someone in the 23rd century who has studied extinct earth creatures (including the whales)? If I recall, Spock brought up a whole schematic of them on the Bounty and managed to take the Probe's contact and match it with that of "whale songs."
Maybe Gillian simply conversed with these experts, corrected them on any incorrect information, and served on a science "space" ship.
I could be completely off (and maybe this point was already made) but I think it's sort of silly that there isn't one person in the 23rd century who hasn't studied extinct earth species.
Could it be plausible that Dr. Gillian Taylor is not necessarily the only expert on humpback whales? Let me explain. Consider this fact: there are experts in today's day and age who are experts in dinosaurs or other extinct species. Obviously, those experts were not around while those creatures were alive yet they've studied them so much that they know so much about their existence (and will continue to know about their existence as technology improves).
Is it not likely that there's someone in the 23rd century who has studied extinct earth creatures (including the whales)? If I recall, Spock brought up a whole schematic of them on the Bounty and managed to take the Probe's contact and match it with that of "whale songs."
Maybe Gillian simply conversed with these experts, corrected them on any incorrect information, and served on a science "space" ship.
I could be completely off (and maybe this point was already made) but I think it's sort of silly that there isn't one person in the 23rd century who hasn't studied extinct earth species.
^We covered this. There's a huge difference between being an "expert" in something you've never encountered firsthand and being someone who's actually worked with the living animals for years, who knows them as individuals, not just as textbook data or dead remains. Like I said, firsthand knowledge is always considered preferable to secondhand (or further removed) knowledge.
Look at me, for instance. I've been a Star Trek fan for nearly four decades, I've read a ton of reference books, I could probably validly be called an expert in Star Trek. But my expertise is secondhand at best. I've read about the show, learned about the show, sure. But my knowledge pales in comparison to that of Bob Justman or D. C. Fontana or Leonard Nimoy or someone who was actually there. It would be incredibly arrogant and wrong of me to equate my indirect expertise with their firsthand knowledge.
Look at me, for instance. I've been a Star Trek fan for nearly four decades, I've read a ton of reference books, I could probably validly be called an expert in Star Trek. But my expertise is secondhand at best. I've read about the show, learned about the show, sure. But my knowledge pales in comparison to that of Bob Justman or D. C. Fontana or Leonard Nimoy or someone who was actually there. It would be incredibly arrogant and wrong of me to equate my indirect expertise with their firsthand knowledge.
For the same reason that the Vulcans in the last movie are in such a pickle. They apparently didn't have any offworld colonies since it was estimated that there were only 10,000 left (as odd as that seems). For the same reason that humans have established colonies on other planets. Why should the whales have all their eggs in one basket? What would have happened to the whales if the Borg had succeeded in their attack on Earth in Destiny? The planet would have been radically altered. It's possible that the whales wouldn't have survived.
Also, I would imagine that a number of planets would want some humpbacks of their own. After all, they are the ONLY known defense against the attack of the Probe. What happens if it comes back but decides to check out another planet's missing cetaceans?
That's another case of mistaking viewer interpretation for actual fact. What Spock actually said in the movie was that only 10,000 people escaped from Vulcan itself. The line, like Gillian's "vessel" line, was ambiguous enough to allow for two interpretations, but the actual intent, confirmed by the screenwriters themselves, is that Spock was referring only to the survivors from the planet itself, not to the total number of Vulcans left in the universe.
This is why it's important to question your preconceptions. Part of the skill of comprehending a text is being able to distinguish between what's actually stated and what you're reading into it. As well as distinguishing between the more and less probable interpretations of an ambiguous statement. The more probable interpretation of Spock's statement is that he was referring only to those who escaped the planet itself; the more probable interpretation of Gillian's statement is that she was referring to an oceangoing vessel. It's simpler to accept the more probable interpretation rather than concocting all sorts of unnecessary rationalizations to justify the less probable one.
They already do. There are only two of them initially, three once the calf is born, and it would be at least two years before a fourth could be born, four years before a fifth. If the calf is female and survives to sexual maturity (and if the parents survive as well), then you could get two offspring in year six, bringing the total number to seven (if all the offspring survive, which is far from certain in the wild), but if the calf is male, you wouldn't be so lucky. Either way, for the first five or six years after G&G arrive, there are only going to be two sexually mature humpbacks on the entire planet. So how exactly are you going to split them up?
And even once you get one or two more sexually mature whales, you've still got a tiny, unstable population base, and splitting it in two would make them both even tinier and even less likely to survive. It would be insanely counterproductive.
Splitting up the population to different planets would make sense once you have enough members that each half of the population could be viable on its own. But given the slow rate at which humpbacks reproduce, it would be decades before their population was large enough to make it viable to even consider splitting them up. It's sure as hell not something Gillian's going to be looking into mere weeks or months after her arrival. It's more of a job for whoever takes her place when she retires in the early 24th century.
That doesn't make any sense, because those missing cetaceans would obviously not be Megaptera novaeangliae. How could the humpbacks fill in for some alien cetacean species that would've spoken a completely different language?
The Federation should be making long term plans to ensure the survival of the species. That would include selecting planets where they could be settled. That's something that should be undertaken ASAP so that they can be transplanted as soon as they are ready.
We know that there is advanced medical technology available including cloning and gene splicing. Waiting for George and Gracie to decide on their own when they will have another calf is counter productive. What if something happens to one of them? They should be taking steps to make sure that any females are pregnant as soon as they are ready and able to care for a new calf. You can also ensure that the calves are additional females so that you're increasing the numbers as fast as you can. If their first child is male and something happens to Gracie then we're right back where we started. We know we have our eggs in one basket. It's critical to start making baskets and filling them with as many eggs as we can.
The writers may have said that their intent was that the 10,000 referred only to survivors from the planet itself but that's in hindsight. Spock referred to Vulcans being an endangered species, not once but twice. OldSpock was also looking for a new planet for the 10,000 to settle on. If there are numerous other colonies already existing then why not put the survivors there while the new colony is prepared?
Much like the silly idea that the Ocama only have once child, they writers can realize they made a mistake after the fact but that doesn't change what actually made it to the screen.
We know that there is advanced medical technology available including cloning and gene splicing. Waiting for George and Gracie to decide on their own when they will have another calf is counter productive. What if something happens to one of them? They should be taking steps to make sure that any females are pregnant as soon as they are ready and able to care for a new calf. You can also ensure that the calves are additional females so that you're increasing the numbers as fast as you can. If their first child is male and something happens to Gracie then we're right back where we started. We know we have our eggs in one basket. It's critical to start making baskets and filling them with as many eggs as we can.
The writers may have said that their intent was that the 10,000 referred only to survivors from the planet itself but that's in hindsight. Spock referred to Vulcans being an endangered species, not once but twice. OldSpock was also looking for a new planet for the 10,000 to settle on. If there are numerous other colonies already existing then why not put the survivors there while the new colony is prepared?
Much like the silly idea that the Ocama only have once child, they writers can realize they made a mistake after the fact but that doesn't change what actually made it to the screen.
But what made it to the screen was ambiguous, and in such a case, like I said, it's simpler to go with the more probable interpretation rather than wasting a lot of time concocting flimsy rationalizations for the more unlikely interpretation. Nobody ever said Gillian was going into space. So there's no reason to waste energy concocting explanations for why she might've been going into space.
A Grissom in very-low-earth orbit, tracking the whales, collecting data, and also packing a submersable shuttle? These kind of long term intensive surveys seem to be what those science ships were about. Probably have to tune down the sensors so you don't microwave George and Gracie.
That kind of setup would allow supervision and monitoring without constantly disrupting them. Having a 3,000 tonne boat following you probably isn't the best way to encourage natural behavior.
=)
That kind of setup would allow supervision and monitoring without constantly disrupting them. Having a 3,000 tonne boat following you probably isn't the best way to encourage natural behavior.
=)
This is exactly what I assumed.
Plus, as has also been mentioned, in addition to being a skiffy version of "see ya", saying "see you around the galaxy" just doesn't make sense unless she expects to be in space, that is if we are going with what is the "simplest" explanation for the facts.
Possibly. But there's absolutely no reason in the whole damn universe why it couldn't have just plain been a boat. Why this animosity to the simple notion that oceangoing craft still exist alongside spacegoing craft?
I think if you're trying to track something through water, the best way is with sonar, since EM sensors wouldn't penetrate very far. The right tool for the right job. Or maybe not sonar so much as passive audio tracking, since loud sonar pings could be disruptive. But sound carries very, very far through the ocean -- whales can literally hear each other clear around the planet, if they dive to the sound fixing and ranging layer. So an aquatic craft could surely monitor them without needing to crowd them.
The best type of research vessel for this is one that I think we've all neglected to talk about: a submersible. Just imagine what kind of fancy, futuristic submersibles they must have in the 23rd century. Wouldn't that be an interesting thing to learn more about?
That's taking it way too literally, and it's far from the simplest explanation. Back in the early 20th century, there was a common figure of speech, "See you in the funny pages" (or papers), used as a facetious or mocking farewell:
http://www.word-detective.com/2011/12/02/see-you-in-the-funny-papers/
If someone said "I'll see you in the funny pages," it didn't mean that the speaker intended to become a cartoonist. It was in reference to the idea of seeing someone in the news, or in this case, the comics. The "seeing" in that case would not be reciprocal or involve an actual meeting. By the same token, Gillian could've said "See you around the galaxy" to Kirk because she expected to see news stories of his exploits around the galaxy, not becauses she intended to travel into space herself.
Indeed, as the site points out, the phrase "see you" is quite often used in farewells by people who have no intention or expectation of seeing the listener again, as for instance from a store clerk to a customer. I've often been amused by the tendency of TV news anchors or hosts to say to the audience, "See you next week" or "We'll see you at eleven." In fact, I'm going to see them (if I watch); they won't see me at all.
So "See you" is just a polite farewell, one that does not imply any genuine intent to follow through on the literal meaning of the phrase. The simplest interpretation is that Gillian was just using it in that sense, as a common figure of speech rather than a sincere, literal declaration of her life goals.
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