What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theories

[The Wormhole]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I figured the credit material was just "revisionist" history on the part of the Terran Empire. Like showing the flag of the Empire being planted on the moon.

According to Dr. Phlox, all of Earth's classical literature is different in the MU. Mirror Phlox describes Prime Universe literature as soft and weak. Although Shakespeare is apparentally the same.

Also worth mentioning, Enterprise's credits show a graphic of Earth spinning in the opposite direction (meaning the sun would rise in the west). I choose to intrepret this as proof Earth rotates the opposite way and as such this has altered the behaviour of humanity and influenced the popularity of goatees.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Also worth mentioning, Enterprise's credits show a graphic of Earth spiinign in the opposite direction (meaning the sun woulld rise in the west). I choose to intrepret this as proof Earth rotates the opposite way and as such this has altered the behaviour of humanity and influenced the popularity of goatees.

That evil alien invader Superman is obviously the cause of the divergence. Lex was right all along!

 

[T'Girl]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

the pathways into the Mirror Universe(s) always lead to a quantum reality that's at that point in history "close" to the main Star Trek reality

Very nice.

 

[The Castellan]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I think these sayings would be good for the Imperial Starfleet vessels.

Oderint dum metuant: Let them hate, so long as they fear

Supra Summus: Beyond Above

Melior Diabolus Quem Scies: The devil you know

Nunquam Ante Numquam Iterum: Never Before, Never Again.

Omni Vestri Substructio: All your base are belong to us.

MELIOR DIABOLUS QUEM SCIES: better than the devil, whom thou shalt know

I think these would work, and it's interesting where I found these ones from.

 

[JQP]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I don't know about its rules, but...it rules!

Would anyone else like to see about 10 seasons of just the mirror universe? I've got almost all ST on DVD, and the MU episodes have been some of my favorites. I think I prefer the DS9 MU episodes. I could seriously see a long-running series jumping off from those episodes. The Terran uprising turns into a full scale war against the Cardassians and Klingons, etc.

I think I'd actually rather see that than any other ST series, assuming all else is equal (in terms of quality, writing, production values, etc.). Gritty human pirates, smugglers, and resistance fighters, evil Cardassian overlords, scheming Bajoran collaborators, Klingons the way they were meant to be, etc. Fun.

The STE MU episodes weren't nearly as fun to me, but I did laugh so hard I cried when Cochrane blew away the Vulcan and the humans took their ship. Friggin' hilarious.

 

[Rojixus]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I liked the Mirror Universe until DS9 mutilated it and turned into a cartoonish version of itself.

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I really don't get why fans get so bent out of shape about DS9 turning the MU cartoonish. Yeah, I get it, things got rather silly and over the top what with Worf being the evil emperor who dragged Garak around on a leash and every Ferengi getting killed and every woman being a leather-clad lesbian or at the very least bisexual. But the MU hardly took itself seriously before that.

Prior to DS9 we had only Mirror Mirror, and that too was somewhat cartoonish. Facial hair and scars were more fashionable, and everyone was evil and plotting to kill everyone. Officers had their own henchman, women basically advanced by being professional whores, Spock was able to scare the piss out of everyone by reminding them he was Vulcan. And random and arbritrary torture was used as punishment for the littlest of mistakes. DS9 continued the fine tradition started in TOS, or are people just upset that there was no more Terran Empire in DS9's MU?

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I really don't get why fans get so bent out of shape about DS9 turning the MU cartoonish. Yeah, I get it, things got rather silly and over the top what with Worf being the evil emperor who dragged Garak around on a leash and every Ferengi getting killed and every woman being a leather-clad lesbian or at the very least bisexual. But the MU hardly took itself seriously before that.

Prior to DS9 we had only Mirror Mirror, and that too was somewhat cartoonish. Facial hair and scars were more fashionable, and everyone was evil and plotting to kill everyone. Officers had their own henchman, women basically advanced by being professional whores, Spock was able to scare the piss out of everyone by reminding them he was Vulcan. And random and arbritrary torture was used as punishment for the littlest of mistakes. DS9 continued the fine tradition started in TOS, or are people just upset that there was no more Terran Empire in DS9's MU?

"Mirror, Mirror" is on a borderline between being earnest and being cartoonish -- much like most of TOS itself. It's both serious and kitsch at the same time.

The DS9 Mirror Universe episodes, on the other hand, become pretty much pure kitsch.

For my money, the Mirror Universe is much more interesting when treated earnestly, as the subject of serious drama. Hence my love for the novels The Sorrows of Empire (about the rise of Emperor Spock and the fall of the Empire) and Rise Like Lions (about the culmination of the Terran Rebellion), both by David Mack.

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I really don't get why fans get so bent out of shape about DS9 turning the MU cartoonish. Yeah, I get it, things got rather silly and over the top what with Worf being the evil emperor who dragged Garak around on a leash and every Ferengi getting killed and every woman being a leather-clad lesbian or at the very least bisexual. But the MU hardly took itself seriously before that.

Prior to DS9 we had only Mirror Mirror, and that too was somewhat cartoonish. Facial hair and scars were more fashionable, and everyone was evil and plotting to kill everyone. Officers had their own henchman, women basically advanced by being professional whores, Spock was able to scare the piss out of everyone by reminding them he was Vulcan. And random and arbritrary torture was used as punishment for the littlest of mistakes. DS9 continued the fine tradition started in TOS, or are people just upset that there was no more Terran Empire in DS9's MU?

"Mirror, Mirror" is on a borderline between being earnest and being cartoonish -- much like most of TOS itself. It's both serious and kitsch at the same time.

The DS9 Mirror Universe episodes, on the other hand, become pretty much pure kitsch.

For my money, the Mirror Universe is much more interesting when treated earnestly, as the subject of serious drama. Hence my love for the novels The Sorrows of Empire (about the rise of Emperor Spock and the fall of the Empire) and Rise Like Lions (about the culmination of the Terran Rebellion), both by David Mack.

Personally, I think the MU has to be approached with a certain degree of light-heartedness, or "camp" if you will. It's a pretty damn depressing place otherwise. In Enterprise and TOS it depicts Starfleet as an evil organization of evil thugs who conquer and enslave the galaxy, while in DS9 they themselves are the conquered and enslaved. This makes for some dreary storytelling if you played it seriously, but if you make it campy you can have fun while conviently ignoring that things really are rather horrible for the people of the MU.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

The DS9 MU lost me completely about the time Vic Fontane showed up as a flesh-and-blood human. It went from poor to complete and utter nonsense - like the alternate universes in Farscape, where everyone's species were switched around.

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Personally, I think the MU has to be approached with a certain degree of light-heartedness, or "camp" if you will. It's a pretty damn depressing place otherwise. In Enterprise and TOS it depicts Starfleet as an evil organization of evil thugs who conquer and enslave the galaxy, while in DS9 they themselves are the conquered and enslaved. This makes for some dreary storytelling if you played it seriously, but if you make it campy you can have fun while conviently ignoring that things really are rather horrible for the people of the MU.

Obviously camp is the way DS9 chose to go with it, but I'd urge you to give those two novels a shot. It's surprisingly compelling and emotionally affecting to see the Mirror Universe played earnestly. (And it's only depressing if you can't handle stories like, say, the film The Last King of Scotland without becoming depressed.)

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I agreed with the Cinemafantastique view of DS9s take on the Mirror Universe was that what was great about the original "Mirror, Mirror" universe was that it was very clear that everything and everyone in the Mirror universe was very clearly evil (except for Spock who was more practical than evil).

But the DS9 Mirror Universe was shot through with shades of grey. As such it was nearly impossible to sympathize with anyone it it.

And the huge continuity error they made in Deep Space Nine regarding cloaking devices was utterly beyond the pale.....

 

[xortex]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

My theory coming in blind is that it was a local phenominon that the Halkans sicked on them as they didn't seem to be affected and were just glad to get rid of them.

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I agreed with the Cinemafantastique view of DS9s take on the Mirror Universe was that what was great about the original "Mirror, Mirror" universe was that it was very clear that everything and everyone in the Mirror universe was very clearly evil (except for Spock who was more practical than evil).

But the DS9 Mirror Universe was shot through with shades of grey. As such it was nearly impossible to sympathize with anyone it it.

And the huge continuity error they made in Deep Space Nine regarding cloaking devices was utterly beyond the pale.....

I think we can all agree that it's generally better to pretend that "The Emperor's New Cloak" never happened.

 

[xortex]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

The Emperor's new cloak. Was that like Berman's new suit?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

The DS9 MU lost me completely about the time Vic Fontane showed up as a flesh-and-blood human.

Did anyone actually call him Vic in that episode? Could be that it wasn't Vic at all, but the human who, in the regular universe, was the one upon whom Vic's program was based (Felix?).

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

The DS9 MU lost me completely about the time Vic Fontane showed up as a flesh-and-blood human.

Did anyone actually call him Vic in that episode? Could be that it wasn't Vic at all, but the human who, in the regular universe, was the one upon whom Vic's program was based (Felix?).

Bashir does calls him "Fontanie" so unless Felix's last name is Fontaine I'd suggest that is indeed MU Vic.

Personally, I just assume he was an android in the MU and convienantly ignore the fact that that doesn't make sense.

 

[Emperor Norton]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I think the Mirror Universe is closely parallel to ours, with a deviated history based on some long ago point of departure. It has to be connected to our universe in some way, as people keep finding their way to it, and since it has a rubber band history where even centuries of changes still end up with the same cast of people in similar places, even if not the exact same.

I think a flaw in thinking about the Mirror Universe is thinking of it as just the opposite world, and the world where everyone is evil. It's not. It's a world where Humans are more like swashbucklers. They're Imperialists who view power and war as good, have little empathy and compassion if any at all (except for maybe their friends and those they actually care about), and thrive on basic human instinct and emotion of power and conquest. Frankly, these things are not at all alien to human nature. We may be at a point now where we have compassion and morality which says those things are bad, but many historical cultures were just like the Terran Empire. The Spartans were cold and brutal and warlike. The Romans lacked the compassion and empathy we had (which the Barbarians of their era had) and were crazed conquerors, bigots, despots, and so on -not just the bad Emperors, but on the whole- who would willingly murder innocents and women and children and then write a history calling them savages and making up stuff to excuse the genocide. And so on. So the Mirror Universe basically a reality where that won out over reformed human nature, and continued.

To me, it has to be an alternate history of some form, and not just opposite world. I also heavily reject fan ideas like that it was an America which became Imperialist instead of Democratic that made the Terran Empire, or that everything in the history was the same as ours, just darker versions of it. The Terran change seems far more ancient, and distinct, than to allow that. They reference gods and Caesar and so on. While Caesar may just be a linguistically artistic reference like we'd make ourselves, Paganism indicates something older, and likewise indicates eras of human nature based on greater brutality and savagery and drive to power.

I actually formed a theory lately that maybe it was the Mirror Universe Flint that did all this. He said he was a bully and a brute; what if he never reformed from being such, and used his immortality to conquer and create a lasting dynasty. Perhaps such an Empire would create stagnation, or at least prevent certain character reforms we saw in the human nature after centuries of global changes, so they still worship gods and have a raw warrior nature.

 

[DAYoung]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

"Mirror, Mirror" is on a borderline between being earnest and being cartoonish -- much like most of TOS itself. It's both serious and kitsch at the same time.

Good point. Tragicomedy, perhaps. (Also called a 'romance'.)

For my money, the Mirror Universe is much more interesting when treated earnestly, as the subject of serious drama. Hence my love for the novels The Sorrows of Empire (about the rise of Emperor Spock and the fall of the Empire) and Rise Like Lions (about the culmination of the Terran Rebellion), both by David Mack.

I'm reading Mack's Sorrows of Empire right now. Very impressed.

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

We may be at a point now where we have compassion and morality which says those things are bad, but many historical cultures were just like the Terran Empire. The Spartans were cold and brutal and warlike. The Romans lacked the compassion and empathy we had (which the Barbarians of their era had) and were crazed conquerors, bigots, despots, and so on -not just the bad Emperors, but on the whole- who would willingly murder innocents and women and children and then write a history calling them savages and making up stuff to excuse the genocide. And so on.

You're really unfairly generalizing the Romans; their culture was much more complex than that, and encompassed a wider variety of reactions towards non-Romans than that.

And let's not fool ourselves into thinking people today are fundamentally better. Let's not forget that the most powerful country in the world launched an illegal war of aggression and occupation of Iraq just nine years ago, resulting in over 100,000 civilian deaths, and that it continues to kill hundreds of civilians every year in Afghanistan and Pakistan -- civilian lives that are routinely ignored or dehumanized in popular media. The imperial impulse that so animated the Romans is as alive today as it was back then.

I also heavily reject fan ideas like that it was an America which became Imperialist instead of Democratic that made the Terran Empire,

"Instead of?" You speak as though imperialism and democracy are incompatible. But when you look at the systematic invasion and conquest of Central North America (to say nothing of U.S. invasions and occupations of Haiti, Mexico, Panama, Cube, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines, among others), I really don't know how one can reasonably argue that the United States was not or is not an imperialist state.

Paganism indicates something older, and likewise indicates eras of human nature based on greater brutality and savagery and drive to power.

I'm sorry, but the idea that pagans are any more liable to be brutal, savage, and have a drive to power than other religions is absurd. Just look at Christendom's numerous brutal wars, invasions, conquests, and occupations throughout history.