The Fall of Ben Sisko
- Thread starter Min Zife
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Depression is not a "mistake." It is a mental condition. Going through multiple bouts of depression does not mean one has "retreated," and escaping from a bout of depression is not a sign of "growth." It is a chronic condition that can only be managed; it never goes away just because you've grown as a person.
Seriously, your statement is as ludicrous as saying, in response to the idea that someone's leg has been broken, "You know, I would have hoped that a hero like you would have made mistakes and learned so that your leg wouldn't break. Real heroes are supposed to grow, not retreat."
Your argument would be stronger if you were to say that by the 24th Century, you would hope that there would be an effective treatment or cure for depression.
Even at his worst in Emissary Jake was his number one priority. The first scene after Wolfe 359 is a fishing program on the Holodeck. In his FIRST conversation with Picard he explains his parental responsibilities. In this book he lets one orb experience tell him that the prophets have abandoned him. The Bajorans probably wold have lent him a shuttle to try and fly into the wormhole itself or something. Instead he just craps out and slinks away...lame.
In RBoE the Prophets, some of the most interesting aliens in Trek, are dumbed down to the point that they are mere predictors of the future instead of non-linear aliens with their own agenda. They ensured the creation of Ben Sisko of their own volition to guide linear events. He convinced them to change their intent and intervene in linear events with the dominion fleet at the cost of a penance to himself. They are not the mere observers this rubbish (no offense to rubbish) makes them out to be.
The Tsenkethi were well done, but in the Romulan story line their role was revealed too late to salvage the story. In Sisko's B-plot they appeared in disjointed flashbacks that never connected to anything that was actually going on in the novel. I would say the flashbacks took me out of the story, but they were actually a respite from a narrative to which I had no desire to return. Even the flashback storyline was left open ended and unresolved....how'd they get off that Tsenkethi ship? I was hoping one of the Typhon era Tsenkethi would walk with a limp or something.
Spock and Donatra come across as rube's who are either easily duped or have been chasing a pipe dream for decades...argh. This 'book' just about killed Typhon banner for me.
DRG3 suggested to me that this was a well written book that I just did not like. Jane Eyre is a well written book that I just did not like, DTI: Watching the Clock was a well written book that I just did not like (even though I wanted to), but RBoE is just terrible book. Even if the upcoming DRG3 entries are great it still wont make this book better. It was poorly plotted, constructed, and conceived. It was not true to the character; it harmed the character and the intent of the actor who portrayed him.
In RBoE the Prophets, some of the most interesting aliens in Trek, are dumbed down to the point that they are mere predictors of the future instead of non-linear aliens with their own agenda. They ensured the creation of Ben Sisko of their own volition to guide linear events. He convinced them to change their intent and intervene in linear events with the dominion fleet at the cost of a penance to himself. They are not the mere observers this rubbish (no offense to rubbish) makes them out to be.
The Tsenkethi were well done, but in the Romulan story line their role was revealed too late to salvage the story. In Sisko's B-plot they appeared in disjointed flashbacks that never connected to anything that was actually going on in the novel. I would say the flashbacks took me out of the story, but they were actually a respite from a narrative to which I had no desire to return. Even the flashback storyline was left open ended and unresolved....how'd they get off that Tsenkethi ship? I was hoping one of the Typhon era Tsenkethi would walk with a limp or something.
Spock and Donatra come across as rube's who are either easily duped or have been chasing a pipe dream for decades...argh. This 'book' just about killed Typhon banner for me.
DRG3 suggested to me that this was a well written book that I just did not like. Jane Eyre is a well written book that I just did not like, DTI: Watching the Clock was a well written book that I just did not like (even though I wanted to), but RBoE is just terrible book. Even if the upcoming DRG3 entries are great it still wont make this book better. It was poorly plotted, constructed, and conceived. It was not true to the character; it harmed the character and the intent of the actor who portrayed him.
Which is why he's willing to sacrifice his own happiness to keep Jake and the rest of his family safe. Why is that so hard to understand? If you love your family and you know for a fact that staying with them will cause them harm, then you leave them. That's not negligence or abandonment, it's doing what you have to do to protect them.
And Jake's a grown man now, out on his own and no longer dependent on his father. So Jake isn't really an issue here, not to the extent that Kasidy and Rebecca are.
It wasn't "one orb experience." Sisko lived inside the wormhole for an undefinable span of time, corresponding to about nine months in the outside world but perhaps subjectively far longer. He personally saw the future and what would happen to his family if he stayed. So why would you possibly think that one short jaunt into the wormhole would change his mind, when it was his much more extensive experiences inside the wormhole that created that conviction in his mind in the first place?
But if you'll remember from the actual show, the Prophets' agenda was about the Emissary and Bajor. They didn't much care about his family, and indeed discouraged him from placing family ties above his responsibilities as Emissary. So you're arguing against yourself here. The Prophets would not intervene to ensure that Sisko could have a happy family life. They have no incentive for that.
As Sisko himself so memorably noted, "I'm not Picard." It makes no sense to object to the fact that two very different characters have responded to depression in two very different ways.
And again -- not "running away from his family." Leaving his family to protect them, because he loves them so much that he'll sacrifice his own happiness for their safety.
This is a false account of Sisko's motives. As has been stated time and again, he left his family out of his belief that doing so was necessary to protect them.
This is utter nonsense. DS9 always made it clear that they were observers of the future, and nothing in Rough Beasts of Empire takes away from the possibility that they still have their own agenda.
Tzenkethi.
Don't be silly. There were some fairly obvious bits of foreshadowing of their role in the Romulan storyline.
So why were you reading it?
I can't speak for what DRGIII said to you, but I can tell you that that's what Rough Beasts was. You just didn't like that its operating premises disagreed with yours.
ETA:
Then you weren't paying attention to his arc in Star Trek: Destiny. 'Cos that's exactly what he did -- emotionally if not physically. And he was utterly consumed by his despair, affect his command judgment, and reduce him to helpless tears on the bridge of the Enterprise. All this, mind you, happening many years after he should have in theory had is mental breakthrough and gotten over his Borg trauma in Star Trek: First Contact.
Which is worse than anything that happens to Sisko in Rough Beasts of Empire.
Jake and his family was still his number one priority in RBOE. Sisko was convinced that the only way to prevent them from suffering premature suffering and death was to separate himself from them.
The orb experience was only the penultimate experience in a series of events, including friends actually dying, in the context of memories from his time in the Celestial Temple which seemed to indicate that people around him would die as part of his penance if he stayed.
The Prophets have always been predictors of the future.
The Prophets have been willing to allow their followers to suffer. They allowed Bajor to go through the occupation; they permitted the Ascendants to force the inhabitants of Idran into hiding; they watched Cardassia go through its torments. Why would letting Sisko's nearest and dearest die be out of character, as such?
Sisko and Walter were rescued by a Starfleet vessel.
Given the considerable and fairly lethal complexities and secrecies of Romulan politics, it's not unreasonable that neither of them would know what was going on at the highest summits of Romulan power. I'm not sure how Spock can come across as a rube, inasmuch as he got the ban on the reunification movement lifted, his colleagues freed, and a fairly high profile in Romulan society. Donatra just didn't have many options, herself.
In the end, no one knew what was going on--neither Praetor Tal'Aura nor Tal Sh'iar chairman Rehaek were able to extricate themselves from the mess, either.
I'd suggest that you're not distinguishing between a good book that has bad things happen to a character for plausible reasons and a bad book that has bad things happen to a character for implausible reasons. (The Prophets do allow terrible things to happen to their followers; Sisko's claim of knowledge isn't intrinsically implausible; Romulan politics are famously lethal and complex.)
But Sisko could have gone back to Starfleet without divorcing his wife. He didn't just isolate himself from his family to protect them, he broke up his family. Sure he sacrificed his happiness, but he sacrificed theirs as well.
I understand sacrificing your happiness for your family or fleeing to protect them but divorcing Kassidy, explaining himself via letter, and not taking the time to try to speak to Rebecca about what was happening, those were cowardly actions. I understand saying heros are flawed, but saying his actions toward his family were heroic is complete BS. Even if his heart was in the right place, his lack of communication is inexcusable.
He made some major bonehead moves, let down his family, and probably is emotional scarring his young daughter. Heroic, no. Realistic, yes. Does this affect his greatness as a character and starship captain? No.
I understand sacrificing your happiness for your family or fleeing to protect them but divorcing Kassidy, explaining himself via letter, and not taking the time to try to speak to Rebecca about what was happening, those were cowardly actions. I understand saying heros are flawed, but saying his actions toward his family were heroic is complete BS. Even if his heart was in the right place, his lack of communication is inexcusable.
He made some major bonehead moves, let down his family, and probably is emotional scarring his young daughter. Heroic, no. Realistic, yes. Does this affect his greatness as a character and starship captain? No.
Then you don't understand Trek. These people are not heroes, they're not supermen. They are people, who make mistakes, who fall down and sometimes stay down a long time.
DS9 gave us some of the most human characters in Star Trek ever; people that don't always do the perfect, superhero things. People that make mistakes. Sisko made some mistakes. Some big ones. And he's going to have to live with them. Like real people do. Perhaps he can right his wrongs. Perhaps he can't. We'll see. Thankfully, there are still people on this forum who understand how humans work, and writers who can write real people instead of ubermen who will always triumph in the face of great danger.
I really, truly hope you realize how hurtfull this comment is to people who suffer from actual depression. Not the commercial, Hollywood version of depression were people just wake up and realize how perfect the world can be. But true, honoust to God depression. Something that people might struggle with for 13 years, something that makes it difficult for them to be a normal person in a relationship. Something that doesn't make you scared 24/7. Something that makes you lie awake in the middle of the night when life is actually going pretty well, but you can't help but wonder when everything is going to fall down and collapse.
That's depression. That's not something you just 'wake up from' and move on with your life. That takes therapy, lots of it. Years of working on yourself.
Making a comment like you did is hurtfull to people who suffer from this. Depression is a medical condition, where your brain is no longer capable of making and supplying serotonines. It's the neurotransmitter that makes you capable of making well thought, emotionally balanced decissions. Thanks to hard emotions, bad things happening in your life, your brain is no longer capable of making this neurotransmitter in enough quantities to help you manage with daily life, the normal things like getting out of bed in time and going to work and having a normal relationship. That's were anti-depression medication comes in, they help in making and supplieng serotonines. Thing is, that's not enough. You still need to deal with the core of the problems, why you got into this depression.
So, don't go telling people with REAL depression to simply snap out of it. You're not helping. Not one bit.
I thought RBE was a pretty poor book, but more then that I have no interest in where Sisko as a character is being taken.
Guess I won't be taking the plunge on this new duology unless Sisko is magically back to being the character I enjoy watching/reading about.
Which seems unlikely.
Guess I won't be taking the plunge on this new duology unless Sisko is magically back to being the character I enjoy watching/reading about.
Which seems unlikely.
They are not expected to be average starfleet personal. Otherwise their ships would die just as quickly as everyone else in combat and yet they don't. and the borg would not lose every time. its the same short list of characters saving starfleet and the galaxy every time that makes them the heroes or role models if u prefer
Personally, I think these are mistakes and not character development. I find them out of character and on the road to character assassination. That is not even talking about the problem of Single Parent Black Homes.
also on depression. Americans whine too much about their problems which quite frankly when u compare them to the rest of the world has to go through on a daily basis are generally minor and utterly insignificant. Besides expect SF to have better treatments and at least running some Psych Evals because I don't think its a good idea to have people going through serious emotional problems in major command posts get him a desk job less damaging.
Calling serious depression "whining too much" is offensively ignorant. Google it and do some research.Sjaddix said:
I would imagine, after the disasterous events of Destiny (with Starfleet being shorthanded and councellors working overtime dealing with the immediate grief of those who lost their homes and loved ones), now is very much a time such a plotline as Sisko's can believably continue on.
Indeed. Let me put it this way:
You mention depression. You mention medication. You mention therepy. You mention dealing with the core of the problem.
Now...that begs for the question of why--in all these years of Sisko having this problem--no one, not even his closest friends, were able to see it, and see to it that he got the proper help.
In that case, it is they who are at fault for such neglect--and again, that is something GR would not have approved of, in the "role model" department. Human? Of course. Flawed? Naturally. But neglectful toward one's friends? Hardly--especially if he's the one in command.
Furthermore...if someone were to have such a chronic psychological problem...would they be allowed to be in Starfleet in the first place? If this is true--
--then Sisko would surely be relieved of duty for being emotionally compromised. If not--the fault is that of his first officer and/or Dr. Bashir for somehow failing to see the signs. If not Bashir, the CMO of Sisko's new ship--
Which brings up one last point: if Sisko were truly given in to depression...what is he doing commanding his own ship?
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Again I have to ask: What do you think of where Sisko was at the start of "Emissary"? Wallowing in grief, unable to get over his wife's death, uninvested in his work and his duties, on the verge of leaving Starfleet altogether. Was that character assassination? Or was it merely the beginning of a protagonist's journey, a problem the hero had to solve in order to undergo character development? And why is his situation now so profoundly different?
Good grief, you have no damn clue what you're talking about. You obviously don't understand that clinical depression is a medical condition. It's not the same thing as depression in the sense of having a bad day. The same word is used for both in the vernacular, but that's misleading. Clinical depression is a disorder caused by an imbalance within a person's brain. You can't just shake it off any more than you can shake off diabetes or autism or muscular dystrophy.
I agree that the 24th century should have better treatments for mental and behavioral disorders, but that can only happen if society outgrows the disgusting, primitive prejudices that you're showing toward mental illness. What you're proposing here is nothing less than discrimination, since a disposition toward clinical depression is often a hereditary condition. And like diabetes, it is generally a treatable condition, and when properly managed it does not disqualify someone from functioning normally in one's job.
You remember the point that he made about his recollections from the Celestial Temple indicating that if he stayed in relationships with them they'd die terrible premature deaths?
Was anyone here saying that Sisko's behaviour towards his family was heroic?
I sure wasn't saying that. I'm saying that even if his actions are a mistake, they're a well-intentioned mistake. He sincerely believes he's doing this to protect his loved ones no matter how much pain it brings him personally, so it's completely false to call it an act of negligence or selfishness.
Yes that was fine at the start of the journey which he eventually got over and moved on that is what you expect. Not to mention perfectly understandable. Two Reasons. One, this is even worse seeing as while he may have been somewhat distant from Jake, he never just got up and dumped Jake. Two, he already did this before as u said years ago and I don't need to see the same plots rehashed in the name of character development. That is not even considering him doing no explanation, not divorcing face to face and the rather inconclusive nature of these so called signs of disaster. I mean really if he wants to talk to the Prophets and really try all he has to do is Fly through the Wormhole. I am sure the Bajorans will give the Emissary a craft.
At best its like ADD something which is over diagnosed.
Its not discrimination If it affects performance. I am not saying anyone with a disposition should be denied a job but if they are undergoing bouts of depression at the time then I don't think they should be commanding a starship.
Yeah, I really don't understand how people couldn't possibly say that what he was doing was selfish. I thought his story made it very clear that he didn't want to be doing what he was doing, but he was completely convinced that it was the only way to keep them safe. And that his only concern in the entire situation was making sure that he did whatever he could to keep his family safe, and that he became convinced he could only do that if he left. I thought it was pretty obvious that it was making him miserable, but he was willing to be miserable if it meant Rebecca, Kasidy, and Jake wouldn't get hurt or die.
