What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theories

[Xerxes1979]

I do not believe it to be be either an alternative timeline nor some warped quantum reality.

It most resembles the evil universe that Lazarus was from in TOS. Except that universe required your opposite to be alive at the same time you were and many people are dead in their counterpart reality in the Light/Dark schema.

Could the mirror universe be some sort of man made reality in the same way Wesley created the very real but flawed "remember me" warp bubble universe?

I originally thought that the original dark universe was created by the Enterprise crew and again independently by the DS9 crew. DS9 had historical records and knowledge of the past event so their universe filled in the facts of this previous encounter.

The problem is that mirror universe seems to operate indepently of ours and they created transporter technology to come here.

A Mirror Darkly need not enter into the discussion because using Nu Trek defintions that is both an alternate timeline and an alterate universe.

 

[The Castellan]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

There's many different dimensions out there, ours is just one of them, one where the worst examples of social Darwinism rules.

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I do not believe it to be be either an alternative timeline nor some warped quantum reality.

It most resembles the evil universe that Lazarus was from in TOS. Except that universe required your opposite to be alive at the same time you were and many people are dead in their counterpart reality in the Light/Dark schema.

Could the mirror universe be some sort of man made reality in the same way Wesley created the very real but flawed "remember me" warp bubble universe?

I originally thought that the original dark universe was created by the Enterprise crew and again independently by the DS9 crew. DS9 had historical records and knowledge of the past event so their universe filled in the facts of this previous encounter.

The problem is that mirror universe seems to operate indepently of ours and they created transporter technology to come here.

A Mirror Darkly need not enter into the discussion because using Nu Trek defintions that is both an alternate timeline and an alterate universe.

I suspect that the Mirror Universe is a parallel reality that co-exists with ours, with the primary divergence point being the triumph of illiberal, totalitarian regimes on Earth (forging the Terran Empire, apparently some time in the 20th Century) rather than of liberal democratic regimes (which in the Prime Universe formed the liberal democratic governments of the 18th to 21st Centuries before forging United Earth in the 2100s). While other ideas may be intriguing, I see no reason to think the Mirror Universe anything other than a parallel universe made different from ours because of simple human choices.

TL;DR: The Mirror Universe is just our world when people abandon liberty and accept despotism.

ETA:

For the record, I consider the definitive Mirror Universe stories to be David Mack's novels The Sorrows of Empire and Rise Like Lions. All other tales of the Mirror Universe pale in comparison to these two.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Infinite possible outcomes to the infinite events in history. I think several of them could have led to the Mirror universe just fine (although everyone's counterparts being together in each MU time period after more and more divergeance is ridiculous)

Remember that, although humans are different, Cardassians. Klingons and the rest of the galaxy are pretty much the same as ever, albeit in different cirumstances as a result of this twisted humanity's rise and fall.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I've seen three separate "points of demarcation" for the "Mirror Universe" changing from the "original universe" suggest.

1) Of course there was the one in Enterprise that indicates it was the violent seizure of the Vulcan ship by Zephrame Cochrane and his followers.

2) "The Best of Trek" had a timeline of the Mirror Universe that suggested that the destruction of the space shuttle Challenger caused humans to turn their backs on space travel and turn inward and ultimately into a repressive society.

3) The Star Trek DC Comics in their Mirror Universe series explained that Earth lost the war with the Romulans and was conquered and brutally occupied. Eventually humans overthrew their Romulan occupiers and established an imperialistic empire of their own.

Just some ideas.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I've seen three separate "points of demarcation" for the "Mirror Universe" changing from the "original universe" suggest.

1) Of course there was the one in Enterprise that indicates it was the violent seizure of the Vulcan ship by Zephrame Cochrane and his followers.

2) "The Best of Trek" had a timeline of the Mirror Universe that suggested that the destruction of the space shuttle Challenger caused humans to turn their backs on space travel and turn inward and ultimately into a repressive society.

3) The Star Trek DC Comics in their Mirror Universe series explained that Earth lost the war with the Romulans and was conquered and brutally occupied. Eventually humans overthrew their Romulan occupiers and established an imperialistic empire of their own.

Just some ideas.

The credits to In A Mirror Darkly show the split happening much earlier.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfbsZRbwbJ4[/yt]

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I've seen three separate "points of demarcation" for the "Mirror Universe" changing from the "original universe" suggest.

1) Of course there was the one in Enterprise that indicates it was the violent seizure of the Vulcan ship by Zephrame Cochrane and his followers.

2) "The Best of Trek" had a timeline of the Mirror Universe that suggested that the destruction of the space shuttle Challenger caused humans to turn their backs on space travel and turn inward and ultimately into a repressive society.

3) The Star Trek DC Comics in their Mirror Universe series explained that Earth lost the war with the Romulans and was conquered and brutally occupied. Eventually humans overthrew their Romulan occupiers and established an imperialistic empire of their own.

Just some ideas.

The credits to In A Mirror Darkly show the split happening much earlier.

I figured the credit material was just "revisionist" history on the part of the Terran Empire. Like showing the flag of the Empire being planted on the moon.

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Cochrane's hijacking couldn't have been the pivotal event, since he was apparently already evil.

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I've seen three separate "points of demarcation" for the "Mirror Universe" changing from the "original universe" suggest.

1) Of course there was the one in Enterprise that indicates it was the violent seizure of the Vulcan ship by Zephrame Cochrane and his followers.

2) "The Best of Trek" had a timeline of the Mirror Universe that suggested that the destruction of the space shuttle Challenger caused humans to turn their backs on space travel and turn inward and ultimately into a repressive society.

3) The Star Trek DC Comics in their Mirror Universe series explained that Earth lost the war with the Romulans and was conquered and brutally occupied. Eventually humans overthrew their Romulan occupiers and established an imperialistic empire of their own.

Just some ideas.

The credits to In A Mirror Darkly show the split happening much earlier.

I figured the credit material was just "revisionist" history on the part of the Terran Empire. Like showing the flag of the Empire being planted on the moon.

I think it's far more likely that the Terran Empire, or one of its predecessor states, originated in the 20th Century than that it was "revisionist" history.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Cochrane's hijacking couldn't have been the pivotal event, since he was apparently already evil.

Was Cochrane really evil in that segment? If the Borg and the Enterprise crew had not journeyed back in time to that universe, then Cochrane would have had no forewarning about the Vulcans landing and all the good it would bring to humanity (Riker and Troil told him that remember).

So Cochrane might've seen himself as simply "repelling an invader" when he shot the Vulcan down. Perhaps an invader that was there to seize his just completed warp drive.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Cochrane's hijacking couldn't have been the pivotal event, since he was apparently already evil.

Was Cochrane really evil in that segment?

Sure looks like it. Not only did he shoot the Vulcan captain in cold blood, but you'll notice that as the humans storm the Vulcan ship and kill its crew, Cochrane has his fist raised as if in triumph. (Of course this was "really" done to hide the face of the actor playing him, so you don't realize it isn't James Cromwell.)

 

[Sci]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

What is "evil?"

My standard definition, because I think it is the most functional and the most accurate at summing the common denominator of most political actors people regard as immoral, is that "evil" is the decision to valuate the accumulation and/or exercise of power over considerations of empathy or decency.

Under such a definition, someone may be "evil" (in the sense of valuating power over morality) without being a sadist, or deriving pleasure from hurting people, or from violating the tenants of morality. Indeed, someone may be "evil" yet believe themselves quite moral, believe themselves to be serving a higher purpose.

Was the Mirror Cochrane "evil" in the sense of being some comic book supervillain who likes defying morality and derives pleasure from hurting people? Maybe not. Maybe he was only "evil" insofar as he felt that the Vulcans represented a potential threat, and that therefore they should be neutralized in the name of security. He seems to have been the product of a brutal, authoritarian political culture marred by a history of war and aggression. In his view, the entry of the Vulcans as a new, more powerful political actor than any Human faction, may have been interpreted as an immediate existential threat to his nation or to Earth in general -- prompting him to decide it was more prudent to kill the Vulcans, even if it turned out he was wrong and they were benign, just to make sure he and his would be safe.

And what is evil motivated by, after all, if not fear?

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

When I made my previous post, I realized it was simplistic to call Cochrane "evil" without qualification. However, since it's common to portray MU characters as simplistically comic-book-evil, I felt it was okay in this case.

Cochrane was eeeevil.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

"points of demarcation"

I don't think the mirror-mirror universe simply did a "branched-off" from the prime universe at a certain point in history. Because we keep seeing the same people, groups, situations and ships over the course of centuries.

although everyone's counterparts being together in each MU time period after more and more divergeance is ridiculous

I believe the prime and mirror universe must be linked interactively in a on-going way, they're tied together.

From a certain way of looking at it, they are one universe.

humans are different

You have a twin, from the beginning of your existence, in the other universe. Your dualistic opposite. As far as you are intrinsically from the good/evil dividing line, they are a similar distance in the opposite direction in their values and actions. Most of our hero characters are pretty deep in the good zone, so their paired counterparts are despicable.

evil

They would definitely seem to be evil in their acts. But if they are the counterpart of good, then they would be evil in their being, and not through their philosophical beliefs, or the consequences of their surroundings.

 

[BillJ]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

I believe the prime and mirror universe must be linked interactively in a on-going way, they're tied together.

From a certain way of looking at it, they are one universe.

This is how I always saw it, two sides of the same coin. They have to be tethered together in some way for the same people and events to keep popping up in both universes.

 

[The Castellan]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Cochrane's hijacking couldn't have been the pivotal event, since he was apparently already evil.

Was Cochrane really evil in that segment? If the Borg and the Enterprise crew had not journeyed back in time to that universe, then Cochrane would have had no forewarning about the Vulcans landing and all the good it would bring to humanity (Riker and Troil told him that remember).

So Cochrane might've seen himself as simply "repelling an invader" when he shot the Vulcan down. Perhaps an invader that was there to seize his just completed warp drive.

Doubt it, since anyone with the power to nab the warp drive would have one, or something better. So, the ones who could do it would not need to do so.

I see this guy as something like a xenophobic take on the paranoid 'duck and cover' person from the MacArthur days, when folks were pretty much looking under their beds, for fear of finding a Communist there, and even accusing their neighbors of being one.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

One of Shatner's books suggested the premise that the MU, by the time of TNG, was no longer as "congruent" with the prime universe as it was in Kirk's time. (They were having a harder time locating candidates to replace prime universe counterparts.)

I've alwasy thought that there were multiple "Mirror Universes" (perhaps as depicted in novels and comics).

A "Mirror Universe" smilie (not to be confused with Smiley) would be nice.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

Yeah, and rather excellently, using the many worlds theory of branching mutiverses, all the TNG-era versons of the mirror universe (like Diane Duane's excellent "Dark Mirror", infinitely superior to the DS9 MU garbage, IMO, and Shatner's version) can have the shared past of "Mirror, Mirror"

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

The Mirror Universe is one of an infinite parade of realities. We've seen three (at least) so far: Prime, Abrams, Mirror.

I like the notion the MU diverged because Edith Keeler survived in that reality, allowing the Nazis to win WWII. Eventually the global Nazi empire became more piratical, undisciplined and entrepreneurial, probably because Americans inevitably took over. (You think we're going to let the kauts run things forever? Please!)

I know Through a Mirror Darkly opening credits contradicted that theory, but I regard ENT as pick-and-choose in terms of canon.

 

[Skellington]

Re: What is the mirror universe and its rules for existing? Your theo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Infinite possible outcomes to the infinite events in history. I think several of them could have led to the Mirror universe just fine (although everyone's counterparts being together in each MU time period after more and more divergeance is ridiculous).

A possible pseudo-scientific solution might be that the pathways into the Mirror Universe(s) always lead to a quantum reality that's at that point in history "close" to the main Star Trek reality, so to speak. One version of the many worlds interpretation is the multiple histories concept, which to me suggests that alternate timelines can actually converge, ie that their "universes" can start to resemble each other. I remember this concept from aeons ago in the Avengers, when (IIRC) an alternate Vision went from monochrome to his classic green-red-yellow colour scheme.