Can we all agree that 31 had a huge roll in winning the war
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
What, like a huge bread roll?
It must have been the work of Wheaton.
Well it was critical in the treaty signing and made the changelings slightly less rational but it did not really win the war. I suppose it was one of the top 5 or 10 factors.
To directly answer the thread title, yes. While Starfleet and their allies might have eventually won the war, there is no way they would have won in the time frame they did without the "role" played by Section 31. The longer the war persisted, the higher the fatalities, casualties and damages on all sides.
As I recall, S31 killed not a single founder, but they helped bring them to the surrender table.
Will there be public awards ceremonies for the survivors of Section 31? Unlikely, but the Federation does owe them a begrudging gratitude.
As I recall, S31 killed not a single founder, but they helped bring them to the surrender table.
Will there be public awards ceremonies for the survivors of Section 31? Unlikely, but the Federation does owe them a begrudging gratitude.
As I recall they infected Odo with the virus back in Season 4. When no war was taking place. So they pre-empted the war. And they intended to provide no antidode. They could have easily done something else to actually prevent the war at that Season 4 stage. Like......collapsing the wormhole? And saved millions/billions more.
The only way I can reconcile those two positions S31 took (kill all founders versus don't collapse wormhole) is that S31 wanted the Federation to explore/claim large portions of the Gamma quadrant after the Dominion had fallen from the effects of the virus.(witness their efforts to infilitrate the Romulans so that the Federation will come out on top in the post-war period.) They are pre-war crinimials who will do anything to expand what they think are the Federations interests. Gratitude? Maybe. The diesese was certainly a factor in causing the Dominion to come to terms. But if they had bothered doing the simpliest (and most moral) thing there would have been no war in the first place.
The only way I can reconcile those two positions S31 took (kill all founders versus don't collapse wormhole) is that S31 wanted the Federation to explore/claim large portions of the Gamma quadrant after the Dominion had fallen from the effects of the virus.(witness their efforts to infilitrate the Romulans so that the Federation will come out on top in the post-war period.) They are pre-war crinimials who will do anything to expand what they think are the Federations interests. Gratitude? Maybe. The diesese was certainly a factor in causing the Dominion to come to terms. But if they had bothered doing the simpliest (and most moral) thing there would have been no war in the first place.
As far as Bashir could tell, Starfleet Medical did that. Bashir just decided it was so out of character for that organization that it had to be the work of the Men In Black instead.
We have only Bashir's bigoted interpretations and a perverse dreamscape from "Extreme Measures" to suggest that Starfleet wasn't the organization behind the highly successful bioweapon genocide/blackmail scheme. And the very fact that Agent Sloan in "Extreme Measures" indicates Section 31 guilt should tell us that the guilty party was somebody else altogether - the logical alternative being Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Section 31 Had to be in on it, Sloan provided Julian the information for a cure. I think that pretty much proves what we saw in Sloan's mind was indeed fact. So, either Section 31 did it, or they worked in Tandem with Starfleet medical
As far as Bashir could tell, Starfleet Medical did that. Bashir just decided it was so out of character for that organization that it had to be the work of the Men In Black instead.
We have only Bashir's bigoted interpretations and a perverse dreamscape from "Extreme Measures" to suggest that Starfleet wasn't the organization behind the highly successful bioweapon genocide/blackmail scheme. And the very fact that Agent Sloan in "Extreme Measures" indicates Section 31 guilt should tell us that the guilty party was somebody else altogether - the logical alternative being Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Section 31 undoubtedly played a role in winning the war. I do not agree that they were a silly concept at all - but then again, I am fan of the spy genre. Spies and subterfuge have been around long before the middle ages. There is no reason to believe that they still won't exist in the future. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing further section 31 stories.
Ohhh, that is an interesting thought that had not previously crossed my mind. I like the possibilities it presents.
There's been some theories that Section 31 is around to be a "fall guy" of sorts for the top brass in Starfleet. If anyone stumbles upon an "illegal" or "immoral" activity--"Oh, it wasn't us, it was a rogue organization!"
To wit--look at the frankly-overrated miniseries on Section 31:
Cloak: Remember "The Enterprise Incident"? How DARE Starfleet have Kirk and Co. sneak around and STEAL? Oh...wait. The Admiral who gave Kirk the order was a memner of SECTION 31!!!
Abyss: This was only an aside "reveal" in the end of an otherwise okay book, but--Remember Insurrection? How DARE the Federation Council order Admiral Dougherty to relocate a race? Oh, wait--let's forget about that plot point about the Council, and say he was a "rogue" admiral. No--scratch that--IT WAS SECTION 31!!!
As if Section 31 would give a darn about the youth thing....
To wit--look at the frankly-overrated miniseries on Section 31:
Cloak: Remember "The Enterprise Incident"? How DARE Starfleet have Kirk and Co. sneak around and STEAL? Oh...wait. The Admiral who gave Kirk the order was a memner of SECTION 31!!!
Abyss: This was only an aside "reveal" in the end of an otherwise okay book, but--Remember Insurrection? How DARE the Federation Council order Admiral Dougherty to relocate a race? Oh, wait--let's forget about that plot point about the Council, and say he was a "rogue" admiral. No--scratch that--IT WAS SECTION 31!!!
As if Section 31 would give a darn about the youth thing....
The shenanigans S31 was up to in "Inter Arma..." makes that doubtful.
^ There to provide plausible deniability to those in positions of power within the Federation governing body. Maybe even as high as the Federation President, remember Sloan said there was a section 31 representative in the President's office.
The Federation elite, with the apparent exposure of section 31, will now have to go throught all the trouble of thinking up a new name for section 31, while section 31 goes about the exact same activities as they did prior to the name change.
Sloan and some others had to take one for the team.
But would the upper management of section 31 have been touched? Maybe a few, but those at the very top? Unlikely, because they're protected but the strongest of shields.
Elected office.
The Federation elite, with the apparent exposure of section 31, will now have to go throught all the trouble of thinking up a new name for section 31, while section 31 goes about the exact same activities as they did prior to the name change.
Sloan and some others had to take one for the team.
But would the upper management of section 31 have been touched? Maybe a few, but those at the very top? Unlikely, because they're protected but the strongest of shields.
Elected office.
you misunderstand. Section 31 isn't silly because they're spies. It's silly because they're a "super-secret, extra-legal, technically non-existent" organization. There's already a Starfleet Intelligence. You don't need ridiculousness like Section 31.
That could be said about any number of shows with a Secret Spy Organization, such as Six Million Dollar Man/Bionic Woman - We already have a CIA and an FBI, why would you need an OSI? Air Force investigated UFOs, why was there a Secret Organization in Dark Skies? and on and on
^Don't forget Mission: Impossible, and the IMF department.
"As always, if any of your team is caught or killed, the CIA will disavow any knowledge of your activities." Or words to that effect.
"As always, if any of your team is caught or killed, the CIA will disavow any knowledge of your activities." Or words to that effect.
You mean the stuff Sloan alone was up to? We saw no other S31 agents, although two regular Starfleet officers were lured to do Sloan's bidding. And we saw (or rather didn't see) Sloan pull some sort of a survival stunt after being captured by the Romulans. Everything else was hearsay.
Indeed, one was reminded of A Beautiful Mind, with reality bending around the sick fantasies of one seemingly sane character. Who knows whose side the various Romulan characters would have taken, and whether there was any truth at all to what Sloan was telling our hero?
Timo Saloniemi
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