Ships overall strength

[Deks]

Why are people inferring that the Defiant is stronger than a Galaxy class simply because the former was able to paste the Dominion bug ships whereas the Oddysey could not?

It wasn't a question of firepower.
The Federation had practically no info on the Dominion's technology, whereas the latter did - which rendered the Oddysey useless.
The Defiant had anti-borg technology integrated into it's systems, so it's likely the Oddysey didn't, which probably tipped the scales into the Defiants favor.

As for the Intrepids... evidence points to the premise they are downsized Galaxy class ships with equal power output in weapons/shields, except for being faster and having a lower torpedo count (though I doubt 36 is their limit given the internal volume).

As for the Sovereign... was stated to be the most advanced ship in the fleet by the time of FC.
Probably on a higher power output level (tactical-wise) than the Intrepids/Galaxy class... but not necessarily the Prometheus (which could be seen as a downsized Sovereign).

 

[jpch]

Why are people inferring that the Defiant is stronger than a Galaxy class simply because the former was able to paste the Dominion bug ships whereas the Oddysey could not?

It wasn't a question of firepower.
The Federation had practically no info on the Dominion's technology, whereas the latter did - which rendered the Oddysey useless.
The Defiant had anti-borg technology integrated into it's systems, so it's likely the Oddysey didn't, which probably tipped the scales into the Defiants favor.

As for the Intrepids... evidence points to the premise they are downsized Galaxy class ships with equal power output in weapons/shields, except for being faster and having a lower torpedo count (though I doubt 36 is their limit given the internal volume).

As for the Sovereign... was stated to be the most advanced ship in the fleet by the time of FC.
Probably on a higher power output level (tactical-wise) than the Intrepids/Galaxy class... but not necessarily the Prometheus (which could be seen as a downsized Sovereign).

i totally agree with you 100% very realistic comment. in Additon if you compare Volume of a Galaxy to an Intrepid i assume the Intrepid has a photon Torpedo max of 50 (Galaxy X5 times Volume has 250).
Voyager had 38 because the nature of its mission didn't require full Compliment.(a Maquis Raider and/or a Galor would be most likely what they will Face in ''caretaker'' )

 

[jpch]

In "Message in A bottle" we had a couple of Romulan D'Deridax class vessels, up against 2 Defiant Class and an Akira Class vessel. The Prometheus class vessel fired only a ouple of torepdeos. So it looks like they could hold up against a D'Deridax Class

In the MU we had a Defiant Class manage to hold up against a Negh'var type vessel.[/QUOTE]


Wait wait a sec, first there was 3 Warbirds and they were owning the 2 Defiant and the Akira until the Prometheus intervened.

the Defiant did not hold up against the Negh'var at all,maybe you should watch the scene again,it kept firing like X10 times and barely saw any damage,in addition O'Brien stated ''one more hit would finish us'' then the Negh missed 14 phaser blasts repeatedly which is clearly an exaggerated amount due to plot. we saw that the Negh warpdrive was clearly functioning at the end,could be an indication of moderate but not massive damage,cause the Defiant maneuvered and fires on the engines multiple times.(note that a Fed fighter also helped the Defiant)

in Addition when the U.S.S Valiant took on a Dominion Battleship(close to a Negh size and power ) it evaded hits here and there but ended up getting destroyed and causing minor damage. the same thing should have happened vs the Negh with the U.S.S Defiant.

 

[jayrath]

How about the intellectual strength of star ships? Which was the best equipped with mutliple departments in geology, philosophy, the arts? Why this jonesing over weaponry?

 

[jpch]

How about the intellectual strength of star ships? Which was the best equipped with mutliple departments in geology, philosophy, the arts? Why this jonesing over weaponry?

lol the Galaxy class was a huge Vacation resort XD 16 holodecks,20 Gyms,massive saloons,theater halls,schools lol...

 

[F. King Daniel]

In "Message in A bottle" we had a couple of Romulan D'Deridax class vessels, up against 2 Defiant Class and an Akira Class vessel. The Prometheus class vessel fired only a ouple of torepdeos. So it looks like they could hold up against a D'Deridax Class

In the MU we had a Defiant Class manage to hold up against a Negh'var type vessel.

Wait wait a sec, first there was 3 Warbirds and they were owning the 2 Defiant and the Akira until the Prometheus intervened.

the Defiant did not hold up against the Negh'var at all,maybe you should watch the scene again,it kept firing like X10 times and barely saw any damage,in addition O'Brien stated ''one more hit would finish us'' then the Negh missed 14 phaser blasts repeatedly which is clearly an exaggerated amount due to plot. we saw that the Negh warpdrive was clearly functioning at the end,could be an indication of moderate but not massive damage,cause the Defiant maneuvered and fires on the engines multiple times.(note that a Fed fighter also helped the Defiant)

in Addition when the U.S.S Valiant took on a Dominion Battleship(close to a Negh size and power ) it evaded hits here and there but ended up getting destroyed and causing minor damage. the same thing should have happened vs the Negh with the U.S.S Defiant.

That wasn't a regular Negh'Var - it was a massively upscaled version. At least a mile long, maybe bigger. The Defiant and the BoP's were like little buzzing flies around it, unlike the Prime universe versions, which were barely bigger than a Vor'Cha.

 

[Sandoval]

How about the intellectual strength of star ships? Which was the best equipped with mutliple departments in geology, philosophy, the arts? Why this jonesing over weaponry?

Indeed. Also which is the most tastefully decorated starship?

I may start a thread of my own...

 

[jpch]

In "Message in A bottle" we had a couple of Romulan D'Deridax class vessels, up against 2 Defiant Class and an Akira Class vessel. The Prometheus class vessel fired only a ouple of torepdeos. So it looks like they could hold up against a D'Deridax Class

In the MU we had a Defiant Class manage to hold up against a Negh'var type vessel.

Wait wait a sec, first there was 3 Warbirds and they were owning the 2 Defiant and the Akira until the Prometheus intervened.

the Defiant did not hold up against the Negh'var at all,maybe you should watch the scene again,it kept firing like X10 times and barely saw any damage,in addition O'Brien stated ''one more hit would finish us'' then the Negh missed 14 phaser blasts repeatedly which is clearly an exaggerated amount due to plot. we saw that the Negh warpdrive was clearly functioning at the end,could be an indication of moderate but not massive damage,cause the Defiant maneuvered and fires on the engines multiple times.(note that a Fed fighter also helped the Defiant)

in Addition when the U.S.S Valiant took on a Dominion Battleship(close to a Negh size and power ) it evaded hits here and there but ended up getting destroyed and causing minor damage. the same thing should have happened vs the Negh with the U.S.S Defiant.

That wasn't a regular Negh'Var - it was a massively upscaled version. At least a mile long, maybe bigger. The Defiant and the BoP's were like little buzzing flies around it, unlike the Prime universe versions, which were barely bigger than a Vor'Cha.

are you forgetting that the size of a Defiant used to change from time a model was used it was 170M when CGI was used its 120M that not evidence that this Negh is stronger...

 

[MacLeod]

Which is the most aesthetically pleasing. We could create a number of threads.

 

[Sandoval]

Which starship had the nicest carpet?

 

[Saito S]

Wait wait a sec, first there was 3 Warbirds and they were owning the 2 Defiant and the Akira until the Prometheus intervened.

How in the world(s) do you interpret that battle scene as Starfleet being "owned" by those warbirds?

lol the Galaxy class was a huge Vacation resort XD 16 holodecks,20 Gyms,massive saloons,theater halls,schools lol...

When was the bolded actually established? Memory Alpha supports that figure, listing "11001001" and "Homeward" as sources, but I don't remember a reference to the total number of holodecks in either ep...

That wasn't a regular Negh'Var - it was a massively upscaled version. At least a mile long, maybe bigger. The Defiant and the BoP's were like little buzzing flies around it, unlike the Prime universe versions, which were barely bigger than a Vor'Cha.

are you forgetting that the size of a Defiant used to change from time a model was used it was 170M when CGI was used its 120M that not evidence that this Negh is stronger...

No, KingDaniel is right: Regent Worf's ship was a "super-ship." There is a huge difference between the size of the Defiant fluctuating by 50-70 meters (which was clearly unintentional and the result of out-of-universe CG and production errors), and the MU Negh'Var being nearly four times the length of the standard Negh'Var, clocking in at about 2 KM in length (and this was clearly not unintentional; the Negh'Var design was deliberately scaled up in order to make it seem more powerful. Yes, this is a silly thing to do, but everything about the Mirror Universe is ludicrously stupid anyway, so whatever).

Which starship had the nicest carpet?

Brilliant.

[bashir]I hate the carpet. I do.[/bashir]

 

[Sandoval]

I seem to remember reading a reference to the Enterprise-D having four main holodecks and a number of smaller holosuites located throughout the ship.

Possibly in the TNG Technical Manual although I couldn't swear to it.

 

[MacLeod]

I also seem to recall the Ent-D having difficulties in destroying a single Klingon BoP. When a full volley of torpedeos and a spread of Phasers should have reduced to atoms.

Ships tend to be as strong or weak as the plot needs them to be.

 

[Sandoval]

And it's MacLeod for the win.

 

[Saito S]

And it's MacLeod for the win.

Yep. The depiction of what ships are more or less powerful than others, tactically, has hardly been consistent. It's impossible to have a discussion of this nature without speculation, personal bias, and a lot of extrapolation entering into things.

KingDaniel put it best back on the first page:

The USS Enterprise: 10000/10

Guest ship of identical design to USS Enterprise: 0/10

 

[sojourner]

And it's MacLeod for the win.

He's standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

[T'Girl]

Much safer than standing on the testicles of giants.

lol the Galaxy class was a huge Vacation resort XD 16 holodecks,20 Gyms,massive saloons,theater halls,schools lol...

I seem to remember reading a reference to the Enterprise-D having four main holodecks and a number of smaller holosuites located throughout the ship.

Possibly in the TNG Technical Manual although I couldn't swear to it.

Four holodecks on deck 11, and twenty smaller rooms on decks 12 and 33. So 24 totals. Per the TNG tech manual.

Jpch's stated number was short, but his "Vacation resort" point made. Bravo.





.

 

[T'Girl]

****************** double *****************

 

[jpch]

Wait wait a sec, first there was 3 Warbirds and they were owning the 2 Defiant and the Akira until the Prometheus intervened.

How in the world(s) do you interpret that battle scene as Starfleet being "owned" by those warbirds?

Need i remind you that in TNG,it was stated that a Galaxy class is outmatched by 1 Warbird tactical wise. The Akira is clearly inferior to the galaxy(since so many got blown up during the Dominion war while no galaxy class was lost prior to the Odyssey) and the Defiant might be on the same lvl of a Galaxy or slightly better so yeah 3 warbirds would have wiped the floor with them.

 

[Saito S]

Wait wait a sec, first there was 3 Warbirds and they were owning the 2 Defiant and the Akira until the Prometheus intervened.

How in the world(s) do you interpret that battle scene as Starfleet being "owned" by those warbirds?

Need i remind you that in TNG,it was stated that a Galaxy class is outmatched by 1 Warbird tactical wise.

That was never stated in the show, as far as I recall. If you have a quote/episode name, then I stand corrected.

The Akira is clearly inferior to the galaxy(since so many got blown up during the Dominion war while no galaxy class was lost prior to the Odyssey)

So many? We only saw two definitive Akira deaths that I can recall, and both of those were in "Tears of the Prophets", during a battle in which everyone got their asses handed to them by those weapon platforms. And there really isn't nearly enough canon information on the Akira to make any kind of judgement on its tactical superiority or inferiority relative to the Galaxy.

and the Defiant might be on the same lvl of a Galaxy or slightly better

Not so slight. The Defiant's weapons do seem to be considerably more powerful than those of the Galaxy at short range. In fact, I would speculate that it outdoes even much larger ships such as the Galaxy in raw offensive output, by a fair margin, but only at short range. That's why Defiant is so small and maneuverable: it's able to deliver knockout blows when close, but that power drops off sharply as the range increases.

so yeah 3 warbirds would have wiped the floor with them.

Where, again, is the evidence that the D'deridex is tactically superior to the Galaxy? Or the Galaxy to the Akira? It's all speculation. As has been pointed out, there's tons of ambiguity around ship strength in Trek, as well as the added complication that one of the franchise's philosophies is that an exceptional captain and crew can render technological advantages moot anyway.

As for what was seen on screen during that particular episode... Starfleet was initially dividing its fire between four targets (the Romulans + the Prometheus), but the warbirds only had to deal with three. AND, one of the Defiants got hit by the EMH's errant torpedo, not only doing additional damage, but further convincing the Starfleet ships that the Prometheus was a threat. Despite these tactical disadvantages, the three Starfleet ships suffered no losses throughout the entire engagement, and did enough damage to at least one warbird that it blew up almost immediately when the Prometheus "switched sides".

Conclusion: other way around. Starfleet was winning, handily.