The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoilers)

[Lonemagpie]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Though there is a plot hole in that if it's the original Angier who shoots the very first duplicate and not the other way round - because the first one would then know that the machine creates a duplicate some distance away, which would mean he was choosing to kill himself, and so are all the successive duplicates (cos they'd remember what happened and would always know they were going to drown when spawning a new duplicate)... Which might still work on a really this-guy-is-psychologically-fucked-in-the-head level, and would totally change the film...

I don't get it. It doesn't matter who shoots whom. Both the original and the duplicate have the same knowledge. So yes, he knew he needed to kill one of them every time.

It matters because if the original shoots first then he knows that *he* will be the one who dies in the tank while a new dupe replaces him - and they'll all know that. Whereas if the dupe shoots first then he *knows* that he's the original who was transported and kills the copy left behind.

Psychologically it's a huge difference- suicide vs homicide.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

But based on the trick itself, wasn't the Angier who began the trick always the one who ended up in the box? Therefore, it was always the duplicate who appeared in the balcony... so, Angier just fooled himself into thinking he always beat the odds as he didn't know any better.

How can you say that though? If something is an exact copy, down to memories, who is to say which is the original? How do we know for certain the copy wasn't left behind and the original is what transported?

Of for that matter, if it's an exact copy, does it matter?

Ah... if only Philip K. Dick wrote this....

I think if you were the copy in the box at the end of the trick I suspect you would have a slightly different response. Something along the lines of: "Help! Help! I'm fucking drowning over here!!" Not that anyone could really understand what you were saying... through all that water and glass.

The plain truth is the physical entity that began the trick drowned in the box while the exact duplicate of that physical entity that was 'created' during the trick was the prestige.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Though there is a plot hole in that if it's the original Angier who shoots the very first duplicate and not the other way round - because the first one would then know that the machine creates a duplicate some distance away, which would mean he was choosing to kill himself, and so are all the successive duplicates (cos they'd remember what happened and would always know they were going to drown when spawning a new duplicate)... Which might still work on a really this-guy-is-psychologically-fucked-in-the-head level, and would totally change the film...

I don't get it. It doesn't matter who shoots whom. Both the original and the duplicate have the same knowledge. So yes, he knew he needed to kill one of them every time.

It matters because if the original shoots first then he knows that *he* will be the one who dies in the tank while a new dupe replaces him - and they'll all know that. Whereas if the dupe shoots first then he *knows* that he's the original who was transported and kills the copy left behind.

Psychologically it's a huge difference- suicide vs homicide.

But none of them know for sure whether they are the original or the duplicate.

 

[Starkers]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Logically, transporting you 100 yards away and then creating a duplicate exactly where you were standing makes far less sense than just creating a duplicate 100 yards away and leaving you where you are.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Logically, transporting you 100 yards away and then creating a duplicate exactly where you were standing makes far less sense than just creating a duplicate 100 yards away and leaving you where you are.

The "and then" makes it illogical, true.

The thing is: both are original, both are duplicates. Nobody knows. Either the original is teleported and the duplicate is a "residual object" standing at the same point, or the original stays at the same point and a duplicate is generated 100 yards away.

It's like that 2 Rikers episode. Both are original versions of Riker.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from). The original Angiers was never transported by the machine, he just fell down a trap door during a lightshow and drowned.

If he had been broken down into atoms and re-created, it'd be a different story. But he wasn't. He was the original Angiers right up until he drowned in that box.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

What if neither the man in the box nor the name in the balcony are the "original' guy? What if the original guy is destroyed by the machine and both men that result are copies?

 

[Satyrquaze]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

You just perfectly described the exact reason I believe Bones hates the transporter.

In that case, Angiers entire speech at the end of the movie is meaningless.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

But none of them know for sure whether they are the original or the duplicate.

The very first Angier knows for sure that he's the original, but he's the only one who does- all the others "know" but are wrong!

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^ But how do we know which one's the very first Angier (post-trick, I mean?)

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from).

Why wasn't a copy sent up to the ship, and the original stayed on the planet?

But none of them know for sure whether they are the original or the duplicate.

The very first Angier knows for sure that he's the original, but he's the only one who does- all the others "know" but are wrong!

Who is the first Angier after the duplication process? Nobody knows.

 

[Gaith]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

The bigger plot hole in the film is what exactly Cutter told the judge about how the trick is done. Obviously he couldn' t tell him the real truth.

Nah, the biggest plot hole is, if you're banging Scarlett Johannsen, why do you make the two of you miserable by letting your twin pose as you and never letting her in on your secret? And, who cares about a stupid workplace rivalry anymore? You've got a kid, and you're banging Scarlett Johannsen.

This is why I very much enjoyed the movie the first go-round, but far less impressed the second time - the twins' identical, and identically demented mental states, simply exceeded my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from).

Why wasn't a copy sent up to the ship, and the original stayed on the planet?

This. We're assuming that the copy is on the planet because we have been with this "Riker" for a few years. We want OUR Riker to be the real Riker. But can we say for certain he was?

 

[InklingStar]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Having seen Farscape before The Prestige, I see it as the same as the two Crichtons. Neither is a duplicate or an original, both are the original. They are the exact same person up until the moment of duplication, and they share memories up until that moment. Angier has a 50/50 chance of being either the drowned man or the survivor, but from his perspective, he has always been the survivor.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Nah, the biggest plot hole is, if you're banging Scarlett Johannsen ...

... then why don't you throw her through the machine two or three times? Then you're banging eight Scarlett Johannsons.

 

[stj]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Whether the Angier is the original or not isn't nearly as important as the fact that he is a killer but not for revenge for his wife. His real motive is to beat Borden.

One of the huge flaws in the movie is the melodramatic motivation for Angier, especially the absurd ambiguity about its cause. In the novel, one of the twins was outraged because Angier was swindling people by pretending to be real. Not only is this a perfectly good motivation, it's one that lends itself to slow escalation. The movie conflict is much too murderous too quickly.

 

[Starbreaker]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Too murderous? The guy tied a dangerous knot and killed his wife. He wanted revenge. Whether it was one of the Borden's fault or not is irrelevant. In Angier's eyes, Borden did it and he wanted him humiliated and dead.

 

[Disruptor]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from).

Easily answered, the matter split in half. Riker was originally 12 feet tall and 400 pounds.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from).

Easily answered, the matter split in half. Riker was originally 12 feet tall and 400 pounds.

Well, that explains what happened to Tom after his DS9 appearance. Will somehow reabsorbed him prior to Nemesis.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from).

Easily answered, the matter split in half. Riker was originally 12 feet tall and 400 pounds.

By the end of TNG, he'd put all that weight back on...