Science division and the Dominion war.

[Nightdiamond]

Crusher was a fully trained command officer and was perfectly within her rights to take command...

Exactly. In a previous episode, it was revealed that she had become Bridge-qualified whilst on the Enterprise, and sometimes stood watches when things were quiet.

This is where it gets confusing.

It looks like she wasn't originally intended to bridge qualified, and they later added that aspect later on.

In the first season, "Angel One", Crusher is the last one left on the bridge to answer, and she appeared uncomfortable--the away team responded with 'it must be worse than we thought' upon hearing her voice.

Then they gave Pulaski the 3 solid pips like Crusher, yet it was stated she wasn't a qualified bridge officer.

Yet Troi takes the bridge officer's test, and is given 3 solid pips like Crusher to show her status--as a bridge officer.

I think they had to do some creative writing around all of that to build plot.

I think it's part of Starfleet's (somewhat) pacifist philosophy that everyone is a scientist first and soldier last.

Perhaps a explorer first is more accurate. I still think a science officer is a officer first, and a scientist second. And if need be a science officer would be a soldier when called apon to be one. Just as a helmsman would become a science officer if required.

Lt. Sulu filled both roles quite handily.

Good Points.

The impression I sometimes get from Trek, is that people with scientific interests, are encouraged to sign up for Starfleet with the promise of becoming explorers--so they can study space phenomena, botany, etc.

It's like a lot of military things are put on the back burner because of some disdain for it.

Look at the resistance Captain Jericho went through to get the crew to back his plan to confront the Cardassian fleet--

The crew kept asking, 'what if that huge fleet is hiding in that nebulae for just scientific research', which almost seemed like a silly thing to ask, especially when you consider Jericho ended up being right.

Then you have that one strange situation where Picard left a Lt. Junior Grade helmsman in command, and left a Lt Senior Chief Engineer out, and that later caused a little friction, before Picard returned.

 

[7thsealord]

Crusher was a fully trained command officer and was perfectly within her rights to take command...

Exactly. In a previous episode, it was revealed that she had become Bridge-qualified whilst on the Enterprise, and sometimes stood watches when things were quiet.

This is where it gets confusing.

It looks like she wasn't originally intended to bridge qualified, and they later added that aspect later on.

In the first season, "Angel One", Crusher is the last one left on the bridge to answer, and she appeared uncomfortable--the away team responded with 'it must be worse than we thought' upon hearing her voice.

Then they gave Pulaski the 3 solid pips like Crusher, yet it was stated she wasn't a qualified bridge officer.

Yet Troi takes the bridge officer's test, and is given 3 solid pips like Crusher to show her status--as a bridge officer.

I think they had to do some creative writing around all of that to build plot.

Not exactly.

The three solid gold pips denote rank - as in full commander - NOT qualifications. Star Fleet is like most militaries of today in that respect, in that a person could rise as high as Admiral without ever actually commanding a ship or fleet

The idea is that their specialty is in support or "staff" (non-command) areas such as Medicine or Engineering. So a MD who rose to become an Admiral may not necessarily have ever commanded a ship or a base, but they would help oversee medical matters within Star Fleet and play a major part in determining policy.

We saw in TOS's 'The Galileo 7', a Star Fleet Commodore (superior to a Captain) who had never commanded a starship. In Voyager's 'Endgame', future-Barclay had risen to the rank of Captain, but I am reasonably certain he had never actually commanded a ship.

Dr Crusher was kind of the flip side of that. At some point, she opted to expand her skillset outside of Medicine. "Cross-training" as it is called within the military. Unusual, but not hugely so, especially considering the 'Jack Of All Trades' approach that Star Fleet takes with its personnel. That in one alt-future she built on this to actually command a ship is noteworthy, but she would not have gotten that command without the extra training she had chosen to get.

As for Deanna's apparent promotion after becoming qualified, maybe she was due anyhow, and this step was just the icing on the cake. Pulaski, on the other hand, presumably rose to Commander by simply being a hard-working Doctor, nothing more.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We saw in TOS's 'The Galileo 7', a Star Fleet Commodore (superior to a Captain) who had never commanded a starship.

I think you might mean Commodore Stocker from The Deadly Years.

 

[T'Girl]

As for Deanna's apparent promotion after becoming qualified, maybe she was due anyhow, and this step was just the icing on the cake.

Or as ship's councilor she had hit a "career ceiling." Without expanding her skill set, she would have never advanced beyond Lt. Commander. Like that episode where Picard never advanced beyond Lt.

Crusher and Pulaski both ran departments in addition to being medical doctors, I sometime got the impression that Troi might have had a few other councilors working for her, but that's not "running a department." And those others (like Troi herself) might have been working actually for CMO Crusher/Pulaski.

 

[The Wormhole]

Then they gave Pulaski the 3 solid pips like Crusher, yet it was stated she wasn't a qualified bridge officer.

This is realistic. An actual medical officer would not be in the chain of command and would never take command of the bridge.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I got the impression that at that time, the writers thought it may be standard to have a chief medical officer have 3 pips.
And that later, they may have toned it down it bit.

Here's another confusing one;

It's the Captain's Chair that everyone
has their eye on.

That's what I wanted when I joined
up. But you don't get to be a captain wearing a gold uniform.

Here's something that seems strange when you compare this dialog to what happened in TNG'S "Disaster".

CH'POK: For the record, Chief O'Brien has been in two hundred thirty-five separate engagements and has been decorated fifteen times by Starfleet. I would like to have him declared an expert in the area of starship combat.

CH'POK: Chief O'Brien, if Mister Worf had
been injured, could you have taken command of that ship?

O'BRIEN: I would've.

It seems like in matters of rank, Starfleet can be so pro scientist/civilian, that they neglect matters of rank, and they don't always have a clear idea about it, until it becomes 100% necessary.

 

[7thsealord]

We saw in TOS's 'The Galileo 7', a Star Fleet Commodore (superior to a Captain) who had never commanded a starship.

I think you might mean Commodore Stocker from The Deadly Years.

You're right. I stand corrected. Clearly, my Trek Fu is faulty today.

 

[7thsealord]

I sometime got the impression that Troi might have had a few other councilors working for her, but that's not "running a department." And those others (like Troi herself) might have been working actually for CMO Crusher/Pulaski.

The Councilor job was important enough to provide a routine seat on the Bridge, automatic input on a variety of important command/diplomatic matters and access to the entire crew from Captain to Assistant Bottle-Washer.

Having back-up personnel is required for every other job onboard, so I totally agree that there would be other councilors.

Also, "Who Councils The Councilor"?

 

[sojourner]

^The Bar Tender.

 

[7thsealord]

^The Bar Tender.

Touche'

 

[T'Girl]

The Councilor job was important enough to provide a routine seat on the Bridge ...

But was it? The impression I've gotten, from TNG, DS9 and VOY, is that Deanna was only on the bridge because she was a Betazed, and not because she was the ship's senior councilor. Prior to Dax becoming a councilor, there was no councilor in Sisko's command staff (even through there was one on the station). Janeway's bridge, prior to being pulled to the Delta Quad, showed no signs of a councilor in attendance.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^Agreed. Troi's presence on the bridge was Captain's prerogative, IIRC.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I got the impression that at that time, the writers thought it may be standard to have a chief medical officer have 3 pips.
And that later, they may have toned it down it bit.

I think Crusher and Pulaski were both full commanders originally because that was the billet for the CMO on a Galaxy-class starship.

But Dr. Bashir was just a lieutenant j.g. when he took over the CMO post on Deep Space Nine. It could be argued that he had a tiny medical staff on the station.

 

[Vanyel]

Going back to the example of Yesterday's Enterprise lack of Science officers; could it be that due to their cross training, they were now primarily Engineers or part of the medical staff? Looking at the episode, Enterprise stopped to investigate a strange radiation phenomena. Why? They are on the losing end of a life and death war with the Klingons, yet they came to investigate. I would put forth the idea that they came to investigate the phenomena to see if it was a new Klingon weapon. Once there the science officers, went back to being Science officers and had the Enterprise C not come through the rift, declared it not a weapon and returned to their postings as Engineers or Medical personnel.

During the Dominion War, I can't see a reason why large portions of the Science officers were told, you know how a warp core and power distribution works, grab a sonic screwdriver and report to the Chief Engineer. Or, you're a xenobiologist, grab a medical tricorder and report to the CMO. When we need a scientist in xenobiology, we'll call you.

The Science officers would still be on the ship, their primary focus would no longer be pure science. If needed the whole department could be reassembled if the mission requires it, then broken apart into a smaller department once the need for a full science department is no longer needed.

 

[The Wormhole]

Going back to the example of Yesterday's Enterprise lack of Science officers; could it be that due to their cross training, they were now primarily Engineers or part of the medical staff? Looking at the episode, Enterprise stopped to investigate a strange radiation phenomena. Why? They are on the losing end of a life and death war with the Klingons, yet they came to investigate. I would put forth the idea that they came to investigate the phenomena to see if it was a new Klingon weapon. Once there the science officers, went back to being Science officers and had the Enterprise C not come through the rift, declared it not a weapon and returned to their postings as Engineers or Medical personnel.

Actually my problem isn't so much the lack of science officers in Yesterday's Enterprise as it is that for some reason the ship still has a civilian bartender, a teenaged officer on the senior staff, and is carrying whales and dolphins on board.

What purpose does a bartender serve on a ship where the crew seems to survive mostly on pakcages rations ("TKLs")?

And while it's likely a seventeen year old could have been drafted, and might even be fast-tracked as an officer given his mother serves on the flagship and his father's best friend is captain of the flagship, would he really be on the senior staff?

And why the fuck is a warship carrying whales and dolphins, anyway? Seriously, why?

 

[Nerys Myk]

^^For the same reason it carries other intelligent species.

 

[Vanyel]

Going back to the example of Yesterday's Enterprise lack of Science officers; could it be that due to their cross training, they were now primarily Engineers or part of the medical staff? Looking at the episode, Enterprise stopped to investigate a strange radiation phenomena. Why? They are on the losing end of a life and death war with the Klingons, yet they came to investigate. I would put forth the idea that they came to investigate the phenomena to see if it was a new Klingon weapon. Once there the science officers, went back to being Science officers and had the Enterprise C not come through the rift, declared it not a weapon and returned to their postings as Engineers or Medical personnel.

Actually my problem isn't so much the lack of science officers in Yesterday's Enterprise as it is that for some reason the ship still has a civilian bartender, a teenaged officer on the senior staff, and is carrying whales and dolphins on board.

What purpose does a bartender serve on a ship where the crew seems to survive mostly on pakcages rations ("TKLs")?

And while it's likely a seventeen year old could have been drafted, and might even be fast-tracked as an officer given his mother serves on the flagship and his father's best friend is captain of the flagship, would he really be on the senior staff?

And why the fuck is a warship carrying whales and dolphins, anyway? Seriously, why?

I had asked the same question about Wesley being aboard Enterprise. The answer was one that I should have realized considering how much I love history. The Federation was doomed. Like other doomed nations throughout history the last days of their existence in wars goes: if you could carry a weapon, you can fight. Wesley could pilot a starship, he could carry a phaser, he could fight. I don't remember seeing Wesley in the meeting of the senior staff when Picard announced he was sending the Enterprise C back. So I don't think he was a member of the senior staff. Then again, almost half of Starfleet has been lost to the Klingons, he could very well be the senior helmsman.

She serves drinks of course. Nothing better than Aldebaran whiskey after the Battle of Archer IV. Having civilians aboard warships in times of war is not unprecedented.

Though not canon, Cetacean Ops, is where the dolphins help navigate the ship. Makes about as much sense as inertial dampeners.

 

[7thsealord]

Going back to the example of Yesterday's Enterprise lack of Science officers; could it be that due to their cross training, they were now primarily Engineers or part of the medical staff? Looking at the episode, Enterprise stopped to investigate a strange radiation phenomena. Why? They are on the losing end of a life and death war with the Klingons, yet they came to investigate. I would put forth the idea that they came to investigate the phenomena to see if it was a new Klingon weapon. Once there the science officers, went back to being Science officers and had the Enterprise C not come through the rift, declared it not a weapon and returned to their postings as Engineers or Medical personnel.

Actually my problem isn't so much the lack of science officers in Yesterday's Enterprise as it is that for some reason the ship still has a civilian bartender, a teenaged officer on the senior staff, and is carrying whales and dolphins on board.

What purpose does a bartender serve on a ship where the crew seems to survive mostly on pakcages rations ("TKLs")?

And while it's likely a seventeen year old could have been drafted, and might even be fast-tracked as an officer given his mother serves on the flagship and his father's best friend is captain of the flagship, would he really be on the senior staff?

And why the fuck is a warship carrying whales and dolphins, anyway? Seriously, why?

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in ANY of the TNG eps or the movies that they had dolphins or whales onboard. The "official" Enterprise-D blueprints had areas for dolphin crewmembers, but I consider those to be totally conjectural at best, since they are never mentioned in any other "technical" reference, novel or whatever.

As for there being a "civilian" bartender onboard, there is ample precedent in both the Commonwealth and the US navies (and probably other services as well). Active-duty warships with a small number of "civilian" crew onboard were a common occurrance in both at least until the Korean War, if not later. They ran laundries, operated the canteen, etc..

.... And things were supposedly going very badly for the Federation and Star Fleet in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'. Seems extremely likely to me that Star Fleet's Personnel / HR Office would have had far greater concerns than micro-managing the crew lists of one of Star Fleet's top vessels.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in ANY of the TNG eps or the movies that they had dolphins or whales onboard. The "official" Enterprise-D blueprints had areas for dolphin crewmembers, but I consider those to be totally conjectural at best, since they are never mentioned in any other "technical" reference, novel or whatever.

There is a referance to Cetacean Ops in Yesterday's Enterprise, and I believe that's the name given to the are which houses whales and dolphins in the tech manual.

But if you want a prime universe example, Alexander once talked about seeing the Enterprise's whales. Therefore they do canonically exist.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Good catch- I never noticed those references before.

Not to get off topic, but I thought 24th century humans didnt believe in zoos or things like that.
Even for the Enterprise, that seems like a small space to house dolphins just for viewing.
Now, the cetacean ops idea is just a little too much IMO.

I tend to think it was a formula that TNG was following-the extra seats for Troi and Crusher, the CMO has 3 pips, everybody is an officer, ect.

To make everything look hip, ultramodern.
For the most part, they kept the science personel off the main chair, and then later, to make the concept more groovy, they let characters like Dax have a shot at it.