Best and worst moral dilemmas in Star Trek

[Hartzilla2007]

Isn't it really more simple? If the planet is in Federation space, then it is a Federation planet-property.

Based on this argument, the Baku then are essentially illegal aliens, who are "squating" on Federation territory.

Except they settled the planet BEFORE there ever was a federation.

I guess the question is this: do you think Riker would've followed Daugherty's lawful order to turn around? At what point does insubordination become treason?

So its okay to shoot someone complaining to their government?

Also its treason to leave an area as ordered then call them back when you don't want them to complain to your bosses and they don't turn around?

Oh and I'd like to see a court that lets you get away with something for what a person MIGHT do.

But it's not just anyone. It's a military officer sworn to serve his/her government and using said governments assets against a government approved mission.

So he had proof of this before sending ships to destroy the Enterprise?

Cause it look more like Dougherty was Ru'afo's henchman in that scene doing whatever he was told to do.

 

[BillJ]

So he had proof of this before sending ships to destroy the Enterprise?

Since Riker allowed Picard to leave the Enterprise against Daugherty's orders with the Captain's Yacht, weapons and explosives... I'm not sure how much more proof he would need.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So he had proof of this before sending ships to destroy the Enterprise?

Since Riker allowed Picard to leave the Enterprise against Daugherty's orders with the Captain's Yacht, weapons and explosives... I'm not sure how much more proof he would need.

Enough to not get coutmartialed for several hundread counts of murder for doing something (ie complaining to the council) that he was okay with not that long ago maybe.

 

[Captain Mike]

So he had proof of this before sending ships to destroy the Enterprise?

Since Riker allowed Picard to leave the Enterprise against Daugherty's orders with the Captain's Yacht, weapons and explosives... I'm not sure how much more proof he would need.

Or a wayward Admiral that was operating behind MOST ALL the councils backs...

 

[T'Girl]

The Son'a weren't a Dominion ally at the time, they were just selling drugs to them

Considering how much trouble the federation went through to take out the Dominion's own supply of the stuff. I'm suprised they weren't going after the Son'a ...

Riker didn't exactly make clear who the Sona were selling the white to, only that they were selling it. If they found customers for the substance other than the Dominion, then the Federation would not concern themselves with it.

Expanding on that theme, they must also be able to assemble all other body parts

Replacing Worf's spine was considered a highly experimental medical procedure, Picard couldn't be given a new organic heart. Transplanting a new whatever into LaForge's brain might have been beyond their medical science. The visual cortex is the largest system in the human brain and is pretty spread out.

They can beam people's particles all over the place and reassemble them, so they can assemble a perfectly functioning eyeball that matches Geordi's DNA precisely.

Except the transporter doesn't make anything, it just move what you already have from point A to point B. Replicators don't produce living tissue.

Cause it look more like Dougherty was Ru'afo's henchman in that scene doing whatever he was told to do.

Then why was Ru'afo seeking Dougherty approval?

Except the Admiral, and by extension the Federation Council, already know the Baku were refuges from elsewhere.

But that was in the first assumption from the "Duck Blind"..wasn't it?....Daugherty knew from his dealings with the Sona and never mentioned it to the "Council". Paid his price for being greedy he did.

The duck blind was there to make detailed observations of the Baku village, so the holoship's reproduction would be perfect. That's a baseless guess on my part.

But it also baseless to say that the Council didn't know everything that the Admiral did, and probably before he did. The Council likely (imo) was first contacted by the Sona, Starfleet would have been sent in to confirm what the Sona told the Council.

The Baku's DNA wouldn't have match the DNA of any of the other life on the ring planet, this is the kind of thing Starfleet notices. Starfleet's report to the Council would had noted the presence of the non-indigenous Baku. They certainly knew where they were located on the ring planet.

The Council then okay'ed the harvesting operation.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Son'a weren't a Dominion ally at the time, they were just selling drugs to them

Considering how much trouble the federation went through to take out the Dominion's own supply of the stuff. I'm suprised they weren't going after the Son'a ...

Riker didn't exactly make clear who the Sona were selling the white to, only that they were selling it. If they found customers for the substance other than the Dominion, then the Federation would not concern themselves with it.

Again DS9 had them as a Dominion ally plus who else uses that stuff.

 

[T'Girl]

Riker didn't exactly make clear who the Sona were selling the white to

... plus who else uses that stuff.

Riker referred to the ketracel-white as a "narcotic," so the Sona would sell it to people who consume narcotics.

we know from Enterprise that non-interference originated from the Vulcans but then they also gave us "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". So who knows how they actually voted on the Ba'ku.

Two of the Vulcans most common sayings are "live long and prosper," and "peace and long life."

Hmmm, how would the Vulcans have voted concerning a substance that result in a protracted life?

Given how fast the council changed their minds you get the feeling they had no idea what was going on, or that Dougherty may have lied and told them the Ba'ku were okay with everything.

Changed their minds? They simply held it up for review. For all we know the Ba'ku relocation went forward after the review.

The Council would have to have a reason to change their original decision, the family squabble between the various Baku/Sona in no way changes the health benefit for many billions of people in the Federation from the particles. The Sona can build another collector.

It all comes down to the particles.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Sez a bad-guy trying to justify his actions - and who was not exactly Mister Honest at the best of times.

It was the bad guy that said it - but Dougherty (a starfleet admiral loyal to the federationn) immediately agreed to sacrifice Enterprise after being reminded of what's at stake - AKA Dougherty all but confirmed the bad guy's geo-political analysis.

... And Dougherty was clearly a very astute judge of character and an incredibly savvy analyst - who demonstrated his loyalty by conspiring to destroy a Star Fleet vessel. Said vessel having done no more than try to inform the Federation of his actions.

So - when you don't like what the scenarists established, you pretend it didn't happen - and come up with out of context snippets to try and support your position.

7thsealord, do you actually doubt it was the scenarists' intent to present the federation as goinng down?

 

[7thsealord]

It was the bad guy that said it - but Dougherty (a starfleet admiral loyal to the federationn) immediately agreed to sacrifice Enterprise after being reminded of what's at stake - AKA Dougherty all but confirmed the bad guy's geo-political analysis.

... And Dougherty was clearly a very astute judge of character and an incredibly savvy analyst - who demonstrated his loyalty by conspiring to destroy a Star Fleet vessel. Said vessel having done no more than try to inform the Federation of his actions.

So - when you don't like what the scenarists established, you pretend it didn't happen - and come up with out of context snippets to try and support your position.

7thsealord, do you actually doubt it was the scenarists' intent to present the federation as goinng down?

To that last, Yes.

To the former, respectfully, I am not pretending stuff didn't happen. However, you seem to give a lot of credence to a few claims made by people who had no reason to be honest - either with other people or themselves. Who is the one taking snippets out of context here?

What is it they say? "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels". Dougherty was involved for his own reasons, and his self-justification was to keep claiming that this was all for the best, the Federation NEEDED the Son'a bill of goods, and that what he was aiding and abetting would benefit everyone. Funny how that turned out.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

... And Dougherty was clearly a very astute judge of character and an incredibly savvy analyst - who demonstrated his loyalty by conspiring to destroy a Star Fleet vessel. Said vessel having done no more than try to inform the Federation of his actions.

So - when you don't like what the scenarists established, you pretend it didn't happen - and come up with out of context snippets to try and support your position.

7thsealord, do you actually doubt it was the scenarists' intent to present the federation as goinng down?

To that last, Yes.

Rua'fo tells Dougherty the federation's current situation. Dougherty - by his reaction - confirms it.
If the writers wanted Rua'fo statement to be doubtful, Dougherty's conduct would be different - or another element would cast doubt on Rua'fo and Dougherty's assessment.

Dougherty tells Picard of how much political capital a fountain of youth would give the federation in those hard times.
Picard's reaction - he accepts it as true. If it was not intended to be true, Picard would not have acted thus.

You want the Rua'fo statement to be false - and you jump through hoops in order to justify it.
The scenarists of the movie disagree with you - which is why all you can come up with as arguments are non-sequiturs or straw-men:

To the former, respectfully, I am not pretending stuff didn't happen. However, you seem to give a lot of credence to a few claims made by people who had no reason to be honest - either with other people or themselves. Who is the one taking snippets out of context here?

What is it they say? "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels". Dougherty was involved for his own reasons, and his self-justification was to keep claiming that this was all for the best, the Federation NEEDED the Son'a bill of goods, and that what he was aiding and abetting would benefit everyone. Funny how that turned out.

The federation council made the decision.
The council and Dougherty had no reason to lie to themselves that the federation is going down (historically speaking, the opposite is true - the tendency is to believe one will endure despite evidence to the contrary).
Etc.

 

[sonak]

... And Dougherty was clearly a very astute judge of character and an incredibly savvy analyst - who demonstrated his loyalty by conspiring to destroy a Star Fleet vessel. Said vessel having done no more than try to inform the Federation of his actions.

So - when you don't like what the scenarists established, you pretend it didn't happen - and come up with out of context snippets to try and support your position.

7thsealord, do you actually doubt it was the scenarists' intent to present the federation as goinng down?

To that last, Yes.

To the former, respectfully, I am not pretending stuff didn't happen. However, you seem to give a lot of credence to a few claims made by people who had no reason to be honest - either with other people or themselves. Who is the one taking snippets out of context here?

What is it they say? "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels". Dougherty was involved for his own reasons, and his self-justification was to keep claiming that this was all for the best, the Federation NEEDED the Son'a bill of goods, and that what he was aiding and abetting would benefit everyone. Funny how that turned out.

how it turned out has no relevance to whether the argument was correct or not.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Baku could make claims about the planet all day long; what they couldn't do is enforce those claims.

I'm not so sure of that. The Ba'ku are as technological a people as anyone in the Federation. They don't actually USE their technology on a daily basis, but they do still have it. Probably hidden away in a cave somewhere, but it's still there. Ready to be used at any time.

This is why the Prime Directive, for example, doesn't apply to the Ba'ku. They are not a pre-warp civilization. They may look like one, but as I said, they don't actively use all their technology in their daily lives. They still HAVE that tech, though.

 

[DonIago]

Or they have the knowledge to recreate the tech if they wished to, but have dismantled/disabled/destroyed it. I don't think there's any evidence to support the theory that it's available to them without building from scratch at this point.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ They were able to examine Data, so I assume they had their technology available to them. Besides, you really can't recreate this kind of thing from scratch; you'd at least need a replicator.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So - when you don't like what the scenarists established, you pretend it didn't happen - and come up with out of context snippets to try and support your position.

7thsealord, do you actually doubt it was the scenarists' intent to present the federation as goinng down?

To that last, Yes.

To the former, respectfully, I am not pretending stuff didn't happen. However, you seem to give a lot of credence to a few claims made by people who had no reason to be honest - either with other people or themselves. Who is the one taking snippets out of context here?

What is it they say? "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels". Dougherty was involved for his own reasons, and his self-justification was to keep claiming that this was all for the best, the Federation NEEDED the Son'a bill of goods, and that what he was aiding and abetting would benefit everyone. Funny how that turned out.

how it turned out has no relevance to whether the argument was correct or not.

Yes it does, becuase the federation didn't die without the particles so you really can't say they were dying especially since the evidence that it supposisdly was (ie they had new enemies) was idiotic.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Hartzilla2007
Apparently, you ignore the posts whose content is not to your liking:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5698681&postcount=111

 

[7thsealord]

Hartzilla2007
Apparently, you ignore the posts whose content is not to your liking:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5698681&postcount=111

Apparently, there is a lot of that going around.

 

[sevenstars]

Actually, the dilemma which worries me the most-- since I get worn out trying to make sense of the Prime Directive-- centers around the Federation's willingness to make alliances with very questionable political entities, namely the Klingon Empire. I always felt the real core dilemma was swept under the rug in The Undiscovered Country, amid all the rhetoric about not fearing the future. "Let them die" should have been given a lot more serious consideration.

 

[sonak]

Actually, the dilemma which worries me the most-- since I get worn out trying to make sense of the Prime Directive-- centers around the Federation's willingness to make alliances with very questionable political entities, namely the Klingon Empire. I always felt the real core dilemma was swept under the rug in The Undiscovered Country, amid all the rhetoric about not fearing the future. "Let them die" should have been given a lot more serious consideration.

the standard for alliances is often "common interests," not "shared values." The latter is a much higher standard, and might leave the UFP with few allies. That was another silly aspect of INS, the whole "deck stacking" against the Son'a to show that they shouldn't be allies. As you say, the Klingon Empire isn't exactly the most enlightened power, so why are we supposed to frown at an alliance with the Son'a?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Hartzilla2007
Apparently, you ignore the posts whose content is not to your liking:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5698681&postcount=111

Apparently, there is a lot of that going around.

Having reread his post link I like how he equates regenerating nerve cells to the ability to regrow an entire limb as if the two were anywhere close to each other. Not to mention ignoring the deqad Son'a and nearly dead Anij (who needed fed medical treatment not to die by the way).

As for your downward trend seeing as the federation is STILL AROUND IN THE 29th CENTURY AND NOT DEAD without his magic particles, it isn't as serious as Dougherty seems to think.